By Dr. James M. Dahle, WCI Founder
Setting up a Backdoor Roth can be confusing, so I thought I’d put together a tutorial on the Backdoor Roth IRA steps people can refer to when they go through this process. Let's get started.
Table of Contents
- What Is a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- Who Should Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?tra
- When to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- Backdoor Roth IRA Pros and Cons
- Backdoor Roth IRA Tax Implications
- Backdoor Roth IRA Steps
- How to Fix and Prevent Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
- Backdoor Roth IRA FAQs
What Is a Backdoor Roth IRA?
Despite its name, a Backdoor Roth IRA is not an account, it is a process with two steps:
- Contribute to a Traditional IRA.
- Complete a Roth conversion.
If you understand the rules of both of these steps, putting them together is no problem.
Who Should Do a Backdoor Roth IRA
Remember that if you are a low earner you can just contribute DIRECTLY to a Roth IRA and skip this Backdoor Roth IRA process.
Roth IRA Limits and Conversion Rules
Low earner is defined as a Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) under a phaseout range in 2022 of $129,000-$144,000 ($204,000-$214,000 Married Filing Jointly). Some docs like residents, employee dentists, part-timers, and even some medical attendings in the lower-paying specialties who are married to a non-earner can just contribute to a Roth IRA directly.
Anyone who earns at least $6,000 ($7,000 if 50+) can contribute $6,000 ($7,000 if 50+) to an IRA [2022]. If your income is below a MAGI of $129,000-$144,000 ($204,000-$214,000 Married Filing Jointly), you can contribute directly to a Roth IRA. If you have a retirement plan offered to you at work and your MAGI is below $68,000-$78,000 ($109,000-$129,000 Married Filing Jointly) you can deduct your traditional IRA contributions. Since most readers of this blog have a retirement plan through their job and have (or soon will have) a MAGI over $214,000, they will find that they can neither make direct Roth IRA contributions NOR deduct their traditional IRA contributions. Thus, their best IRA option is the Backdoor Roth IRA process, i.e., an indirect Roth IRA contribution.
Spousal IRAs
Married physicians should be using a personal and spousal Roth IRA, and will usually need to fund both indirectly (i.e., through the back door). Not only does this provide an additional $6,000 each ($7,000 for each spouse that is 50+) of tax-protected and (in most states) asset-protected space per tax year, but it allows for more tax diversification in retirement. Tax diversification allows you to determine your own tax rate as a retiree by deciding how much to take from tax-deferred (traditional) accounts and how much from tax-free (Roth) accounts. Remember that IRA stands for INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangement. So even if the pro-rata rule (discussed below) keeps you from doing the Backdoor Roth IRA, it doesn't necessarily keep your spouse from doing so. Each spouse reports their Backdoor Roth IRA on their own separate 8606, so the tax return for a married couple doing Backdoor Roth IRAs should always include two form 8606s.
Married Filing Separately
The contribution and deduction income limits are particularly low if you are filing your taxes Married Filing Separately (MFS). Both the ability to contribute directly to a Roth IRA and the ability to deduct a traditional IRA contribution if you (or your spouse) are eligible for a retirement plan at work phase out between $0 and $10,000. Basically, the best option for anyone filing their taxes MFS is the Backdoor Roth IRA process, i.e., an indirect Roth IRA contribution.
There is an exception to these rules if you do not actually live with your spouse. In that case, your ability to contribute directly to a Roth IRA phases out between a MAGI of $125,000-$140,000 in 2021. If you live separately and are not covered by a retirement plan at work, you can deduct a traditional IRA contribution no matter your income. You can still do a Backdoor Roth IRA process in these situations where your IRA contribution is either partially or completely deductible. The tax bill will be precisely the same, $0 when done properly. However, instead of having no tax cost for either the contribution or the conversion, your deduction on the contribution will precisely equal the tax cost on the conversion, resulting in that same $0 tax bill for the entire process.
Mega Backdoor Roth IRA
A Mega Backdoor Roth IRA is completely different from a regular Backdoor Roth IRA. Despite its name, you actually do a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA with a 401(k), not an IRA. It requires a 401(k) that both accepts after-tax (not Roth) employee contributions and allows for either in-service withdrawals (and thus conversions to a Roth IRA) or, more commonly, in-plan conversions. Using the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA process, one might be able to put as much as $58,000 ($64,500 if 50+) [2021] per year into a Roth 401(k) (or possibly a Roth IRA in addition to your usual $6,000-$7,000 contribution). However, this process has nothing to do with the Backdoor Roth IRA process we are discussing in this post.
When to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?
Lots of people wonder about the timing of a Backdoor Roth IRA.
IRA Contribution Deadline
There is really only one deadline to meet with the Backdoor Roth IRA process. IRA contributions for a given tax year must take place between January 1st of the tax year and April 15th (even if you file an extension) of the following year.
Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion Deadline
The conversion step may take place at any time. It can take place the next day or even the same day as the contribution. I don't recommend it, but you can wait months, years, or even decades between the contribution and the conversion step. There is no deadline on Roth conversions. If you need to perform a rollover or conversion of a traditional, rollover, SEP, or SIMPLE IRA in order to avoid the pro-rata rule, you have until December 31st of the year you do the conversion step.
When Should You Contribute and Convert?
You should do both steps as soon as possible. Many white coat investors do the IRA contribution step and the Roth conversion step the first week of January each year. This maximizes the amount of tax-free compounding that can occur on those dollars. Minimizing the time between contribution and conversion and doing both steps within the calendar year is not required, but certainly simplifies the paperwork.
Want to really make your paperwork complicated? Contribute to your IRA each month and convert it each month. Then you have 12 contributions and 12 conversions to keep track of each year. Seriously though, if you make enough money that you have to contribute to your Roth IRA(s) through the Backdoor Roth IRA process, you make enough to do it in one fell swoop each year.
Can I Do a Backdoor Roth IRA Every Year?
Yes. My wife and I have done one every year since 2010 and do not plan to stop until we no longer have any earned income. It is just one of the investment chores we perform once a year.
5-Year Rule
One factor that may push you to do a Backdoor Roth IRA earlier is the 5-year rule. Now there are at least three 5-year rules related to IRAs, but the main one to pay attention to here is the 5-year rule after a Roth conversion. This rule determines whether the withdrawal of principal from the account prior to age 59 1/2 will be penalty-free. The 5-year period starts on January 1st of the year you do the conversion, so it could be a little less than 5 years. Roth IRA principal generally comes out tax and penalty-free (it is only the earnings that may be subject to penalties), but that is only the case after the 5-year rule has been fulfilled.
In essence, if you do a conversion of a Roth IRA at age 51, you can then withdraw the principal tax and penalty-free starting at age 56 rather than age 59 1/2. This can provide funding for living expenses to early retirees. If you do a Roth conversion at age 57, you still get access to that principal (and earnings) tax and penalty-free at age 59 1/2. So it's 5 years or age 59 1/2, whichever comes first.
There is also a completely separate 5-year rule on IRA contributions, but this starts from the time you make your very first IRA contribution, not every contribution, so it should not apply to most early retirees.
Backdoor Roth IRA Pros and Cons
There are a lot of great things about the Backdoor Roth IRA, but it isn't all peaches and cream.
Pros of Backdoor Roth IRA
The main benefit of a Backdoor Roth IRA is that it provides you another retirement account. Via the Backdoor Roth IRA process, you can continue to contribute to a Roth IRA even after your earnings rise above the income limit for direct Roth IRA contributions. Retirement accounts eliminate the tax drag that applies in a taxable, or non-qualified account, reducing your taxes and allowing your investment to grow at a higher rate so you can reach your goals sooner.
How much can that tax protection be worth compared to a taxable account? It depends on the return of the underlying investment, its tax efficiency, and the amount of time the money is left in the account. At my marginal tax rate, $10,000 earning 8% in a tax-inefficient investment over 50 years would grow to $469,000 in a Roth IRA but only $88,000 in a taxable account. More realistically, over 30 years the use of a Roth IRA versus a taxable account for a tax-efficient investment would still result in 29% more money.
Retirement accounts ensure simple estate planning. By using beneficiaries, that money does not go through the probate process, so your heirs get it sooner with less hassle, more privacy, and no cost. They can even stretch the tax-protected growth benefit for another decade after they inherit the account. Retirement accounts like a Roth IRA also provide substantial asset protection in most states, meaning that in the admittedly very rare event of a dramatically above policy limits judgment that isn't reduced on appeal, you can declare bankruptcy and still keep what is in your retirement accounts. Roth money is tax-free forever, so by continuing to contribute each year you can increase tax diversification in retirement.
Cons of Backdoor Roth IRA
Roth IRAs, even when you contribute via the Backdoor Roth IRA process, are still retirement accounts with all of their downsides. Retirement accounts limit the investments you can put in them and prohibit the use of margin investing. If you withdraw Roth IRA earnings prior to age 59 1/2 without an approved exception, you will owe a 10% penalty.
Due to the pro-rata rule (see below), the Backdoor Roth IRA process requires you to either convert or rollover into a 401(k) any traditional IRAs, SEP-IRAs, and SIMPLE IRAs you may have. If you have self-employment income, you will need to use an individual (solo) 401(k) instead of a SEP-IRA to shelter that income from taxes. Doing Backdoor Roth IRAs each year also adds one form (IRS Form 8606) per spouse to your tax return. If preparing your own taxes using tax software, it can be tricky to ensure the software reports the process correctly. If you do a Backdoor Roth IRA instead of (rather than in addition to) maxing out your tax-deferred accounts during your peak earnings years, that can also be a mistake that results in the accumulation of less money.
Perhaps most significantly, there are now two steps to getting money into your Roth IRA each year instead of just one. While I think the process is pretty darn simple, I am continually amazed at all of the unique ways that doctors manage to screw it up. Later in the article, I'll show you how to fix all of those screw-ups.
Is a Backdoor Roth IRA Worth It?
Yes! Most of the time. It really is just a little bit of hassle to do each year, although there may be some additional hassle the first year if you need to take care of another IRA first to avoid the pro-rata rule. There may be times when someone has a large traditional IRA they cannot afford to convert to a Roth IRA and cannot roll over into a 401(k) because they don't have a 401(k) at all, their 401(k) charges high fees, or because the IRA assets are invested in something they cannot invest in within a 401(k). If your employer-provided retirement account is a SIMPLE IRA or a SEP-IRA, the Backdoor Roth IRA process is also probably not worth it. Finally, some multi-millionaires don't want to bother with even the minor hassle of the Backdoor Roth IRA process because getting an extra $6K-$14K a year into Roth accounts just isn't going to move the needle for them.
Backdoor Roth IRA Tax Implications
Roth IRAs are all about avoiding taxation on earnings, so naturally, there are lots of tax implications of this process.
Pro-Rata Rule
The most important tax implication to be aware of is the pro-rata rule. I would estimate that 90%+ of Backdoor Roth IRA screw-ups involve the investor having his or her conversion pro-rated. When you report a Roth IRA conversion on IRS Form 8606 (see below) there is a pro-rata calculation made. The numerator is the amount converted. The denominator is the total of ALL traditional, rollover, SEP, and SIMPLE IRAs, but not 401(k)s, 403(b)s, 457(b)s, Roth IRAs, or inherited IRAs. Therefore it is critical that you DO SOMETHING with any IRA balance you have PRIOR to December 31st of the year in which you do a Roth conversion of after-tax money. Later in this article, I'll describe the exact options you have of what to do with this money.
Tax on Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion
Done properly, there is NO tax on a Backdoor Roth IRA conversion. Zero. Nada. Zilch. While the money you put into a Roth IRA (indirectly via the Backdoor in this case) was taxed when you earned it, it is NOT taxed when you contribute it directly to a Roth IRA or when you contribute it as a non-deductible IRA conversion nor when you subsequently convert that money to a Roth IRA. In fact, it is never taxed again.
Do I Need to Worry About the Step Transaction Doctrine?
There used to be a concern that the IRS would have a problem with the backdoor Roth due to an IRS rule called The Step Transaction Doctrine. This rule basically says that if the sum of a bunch of legal steps is illegal, then you can’t do it. Some wondered if this backdoor conversion from traditional IRA to Roth was a legal transaction considering this doctrine. Those concerns, valid or not, are no longer an issue. The IRS clarified in early 2018 that no waiting period is required between the contribution and conversion steps of the Backdoor Roth IRA and essentially has given its blessing on the whole process. Waiting just makes things more complicated on the 8606, as discussed in Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA.
How to Report a Backdoor Roth IRA on Turbotax
Reporting the Backdoor Roth IRA properly on Turbotax is unfortunately even more complicated than filling out Form 8606 by hand. The key to doing it right is to recognize that you report the conversion step in the Income section but you report the contribution step in the Deductions and Credits section. Since you generally do the income section first, you report the conversion before you report the contribution, even though you actually did the contribution before the conversion. At the end, you want to look at the Form(s) 8606 that Turbotax generates, just like you would check up on one filled out by an accountant.
More information here:
How to Report a Backdoor Roth IRA on TurboTax
Backdoor Roth IRA Steps, Tutorials, and Walkthroughs
In this section, we'll explain exactly how to do the Backdoor Roth IRA process and how to report it on your tax return, whether you file on paper or using tax software. You can easily walk through these Backdoor Roth IRA steps at Vanguard, complete a Backdoor Roth at Fidelity, or knock out a Backdoor Roth IRA at Schwab, three of the most popular brokerage/mutual fund companies.
How to Perform and Report on Paper the Backdoor Roth IRA Process
While it is really just a two-step process, it is best to think of it as a five-step process. These steps don't all have to be done in order (it might be easier to do Step 3 before Step 1), but they will all need to be done.
Step 1 – Contribute to a Traditional IRA
Make a $6,000 ($7,000 if 50+) non-deductible traditional IRA contribution for yourself, and one for your spouse. You can use the same traditional IRA accounts every year—they just spend most of the time with $0 in it. Most fund companies, including Vanguard, don’t close the account just because there is nothing in it. I do this every January 2nd.
Step 2 – Leave the Money in Cash
An account like a traditional IRA is not an investment, of course, just like a suitcase isn't clothing. When putting money in a traditional IRA, you also have to tell the IRA provider what you would like to invest in. In this case, just leave the money in cash, whether a money market fund or a settlement fund. At Vanguard, the settlement fund is the Federal Money Market Fund. You really don't want to have any gains (or especially any losses) between the contribution and conversion step because it makes the paperwork more complicated. The best way to minimize the gains is to leave it in cash (and then of course to do the conversion as soon after contribution as possible to minimize the “pennies” issue).
Step 3 – Convert the Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA
Next, convert the non-deductible traditional IRA to a Roth IRA by transferring the money from your traditional IRA into your Roth IRA at the same fund company. If you don’t already have a Roth IRA there, you’ll need to open one. This can be done in a minute or two online at Vanguard and is essentially the same process as opening the traditional IRA. I do this the very next day after I make the contribution. It is very straightforward. When you transfer the money, the website will throw up a scary banner saying something like “THIS IS A TAXABLE EVENT.” That’s true. It is taxable. It is just that the tax bill is zero for it since you’ve already paid taxes on the $6,000 and couldn’t claim your contribution as a deduction because you make too much money. You can do Step 3 basically immediately after Step 1. Some companies will let you do it the same day. Other companies will make you wait until the next day or even a week or so. But there is no reason to wait months to do it.
Step 4 – Invest the Money
Now you will need to select an investment for the money in your Roth IRA. If you already have an investment in there, you can simply add $6,000 to it. Otherwise, you will need to select an investment in accordance with your written investing plan. If you do not have a written investing plan yet, you can leave the money in cash or put it into a Target Retirement 2050 or other lifecycle fund until you get that part of your financial plan worked out.
Step 5 – Beware of the Pro-Rata Rule
Get rid of any SEP-IRA, SIMPLE IRA, traditional IRA, or rollover IRA money. The total sum of these accounts on December 31st of the year in which you do the conversion step (Step 2) must be zero to avoid a “pro-rata” calculation (see line 6 on Form 8606) that can eliminate most of the benefit of a Backdoor Roth IRA.
You Can Get Rid of These IRA Accounts in Three Ways:
- Withdraw the money (not recommended, as the money would be subject to tax and/or penalties, not to mention DECREASING your tax-advantaged/asset-protected investment space).
- Convert the entire sum to a Roth IRA. Only recommended if it is a relatively small amount and you can afford to pay the taxes out of current earnings or taxable investments with relatively high basis.
- Roll the money over into a 401(k), 403(b), or Individual 401(k). 401(k)s don’t count in the aforementioned pro-rata calculation. Some physicians even open an Individual 401(k) at Fidelity, eTrade, or Vanguard (rollovers from traditional IRAs to solo 401(k)s is a recent addition to Vanguard) in order to facilitate a Backdoor Roth IRA.
Step 6 – Fill Out IRS Form 8606 Correctly
The next part of the Backdoor Roth IRA is done months later when you (or your accountant) fill out your IRS Form 8606 on your taxes. Don't forget to do it or there is a $50 penalty. Remember that you need one form for each spouse. INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangements. You need to double-check this to make sure it is done right, even if you hire a pro to avoid screwing this part up. Advisors have told me that they have had to help clients fix dozens of these that tax preparers have done improperly. If you don't do it right, you'll pay taxes twice on your Backdoor Roth IRA contribution.
Page 1 (below) shows a “distribution” from your non-deductible IRA. Since the money was already taxed, the taxable amount on your distribution is zero. Line 1 is your non-deductible contribution. On Line 2, your basis is zero because you had no money in a traditional IRA on December 31 of last year (if you've been carrying a non-deductible IRA for years this may not be zero). Line 6 is zero in a typical year. Note that Turbotax may fill this out a little differently (may leave lines 6-12 blank) but you end up with the same thing. Line 13 is the same as line 3, so tax due is zero.
On page 2 (below), you are showing the Roth conversion. I'm not really sure why you have to do this twice (since you're just transferring the amounts from lines 8 and 11 and then subtracting them), but that's what the form calls for. As you can see, a Roth conversion of a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution without any gains is a taxable event, it's just that the tax bill is zero for it.
When double-checking your tax preparer's work, you want to concentrate on lines 2, 14, 15c, and 18, and make sure they're a very small amount, like zero, and not a very large amount, like $6,000. The form can get more complicated if you are doing other Roth conversions at the same time or if you made a contribution for the previous year (i.e., made your 2020 contribution in 2021). See below for more details.
Notice how there is no place on the form to put the date when you made the contribution or the date when you made the conversion. It isn't on the form your IRA custodian sends to the IRS (1099-R) either.
Do It All Again Next Year
You do not have to wait any period of time between the contribution and conversion. Each year, I make my Traditional IRA contribution on January 2, then convert to a Roth IRA the next day or within a few days. That gets my investment money working as soon as possible and simplifies the record keeping. Vanguard won’t let you do it the same day (sometimes other providers will), so I have to wait one day anyway. Occasionally they'll make you wait up to a week. If you find you have a few pennies left in the account and are worried you'll get pro-rated, take a look at this post: Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA.
More information here:
How to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA with Vanguard
How to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA at Fidelity
How to Fix and Prevent Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
In this section, we're going to talk about how to fix and prevent common mistakes in the Backdoor Roth IRA process. In order to better organize these mistakes, we will break down the process into the six very clear steps used above and then will explain possible errors with each step and what to do about them.
6 Steps to Successfully Contribute to a Backdoor Roth IRA
- Step 1 – Contribute to traditional IRA ($6K, $7K if 50+ for 2021).
- Step 2 – Invest the money in a money market fund.
- Step 3 – Move money from traditional IRA to Roth IRA (i.e., a Roth conversion).
- Step 4 – Invest in your preferred investment (typically a stock, bond, or balanced index mutual fund).
- Step 5 – Ensure you have no money in a traditional IRA, SEP-IRA, or SIMPLE IRA on December 31st of the year you do the CONVERSION step.
- Step 6 – Report the transactions correctly on your taxes by filling out Form 8606.
Seriously. That's it. If you can do a cholecystectomy, you can do this. If you can work up a pulmonary embolus appropriately, you can do this. If you can manage hypertension well, you can do this. If you can fill a cavity, you can do this. Super easy.
However, people still manage to screw up on EACH of those six steps. Let's go through the mistakes people make, step by step.
How to FIX Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
Step 1 Error – Contributing Directly to a Roth IRA
An error that commonly occurs with a first Backdoor Roth IRA is that people simply don't realize that their income is too high to do a direct Roth IRA contribution. So instead of doing it indirectly (i.e., going through the Backdoor), which is no big deal even if you're under the limit, they contribute directly to a Roth IRA. Then they realize their Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) is over $$125,000-$140,000 ($198,000-$208,000 Married Filing Jointly) for 2021. Now what?
Enter the Recharacterization
If you have made this error, now you have to recharacterize the Roth IRA contribution to a traditional IRA contribution. This basically makes it as though you never contributed to a Roth IRA but contributed to a traditional IRA instead. You usually have to call your IRA provider to get this done, but it's no big deal. In this section, I'll walk you through the details of how to do it.
You have until the due date of your tax return to do this (including extensions). So if you did an IRA contribution in January of 2021 for the 2021 tax year, you have until October 15, 2022 to do a recharacterization. There's no penalty or anything to do it. You can do the opposite as well if you contributed to a traditional IRA but meant to contribute directly to a Roth IRA.
Bear in mind that starting in 2018, you can no longer do recharacterizations of Roth CONVERSIONS (not contributions). This eliminated the “Roth IRA Conversion Horserace” technique for tax reduction.
Until recently, I had thought there was a waiting period after a recharacterization to then reconvert the money to a Roth IRA. However, that rule was only for recharacterizations of conversions, not contributions. There has never been a waiting period for a recharacterization.
Any gains that occur before the final conversion are, of course, fully taxable at your ordinary income tax rate in the year of the final conversion.
The Income Limit
The first thing to determine is whether this post even applies to you. If your income is below a certain amount, you can just contribute directly to a Roth IRA. That amount depends on several things. First, it is a MODIFIED Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI). That number is very similar to your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). Remember how tax form 1040 works.
The first income line you come to is line 7b, your “Total Income.” When people think about income, this is generally what they think of. The third income line on the form is line 11b. This is your “Taxable Income.” This is what your tax bill is actually calculated from. It is basically your total income minus all of your deductions. In between those two, on line 8b, is another income, your “Adjusted Gross Income.” This is “the line” that people are talking about when they use the phrases “above-the-line deduction” and “below-the-line deduction.” If it comes out before your AGI is calculated, it is an above-the-line deduction. These are deductions such as self-employment tax, self-employed retirement plans, self-employed health insurance premiums, HSA contributions, student loan interest, alimony, tuition, and any IRA deductions. If it comes out after your AGI is calculated, it is a below-the-line deduction. These are EITHER your standard deduction OR your itemized deductions, like mortgage interest, state/local/property taxes, and charitable contributions. A MAGI is just a slight tweak to your AGI.
Below are the MAGI limits for direct Roth IRA contributions [2021]. If your MAGI is below the first number, you can just contribute to a Roth IRA directly. If your MAGI is over the second number, you cannot contribute at all. If your MAGI is between the two numbers, you can make a partial direct contribution (most shouldn't bother with this, just do it all through the Back Door).
- Married Filing Separately (and lived with spouse for at least part of year): $0-$10,000
- Married Filing Jointly: $198,000-$208,000
- Single or Head of Household: $125,000-$140,000
If you think you'll be anywhere close to that first number, do yourself a favor and just do your Roth IRA contribution indirectly, i.e., through the Back Door (contribute to a traditional IRA and then convert that contribution to a Roth IRA). Since 2010, there has been no income limit on Roth conversions and there has never been an income limit on traditional IRA contributions, just your ability to deduct them.
So how does a MAGI differ from an AGI? It's a very slight difference. Bear in mind that there are other MAGIs out there. We're only talking about the one that affects Roth IRA contributions here. But to get your MAGI, you simply take your AGI, you subtract some income from it and you add back in some other income to it. The worksheet showing you how to do this is Worksheet 2-1 in Publication 590.
Basically, you subtract income from a Roth conversion and you add income from IRA deductions (not sure why you'd have this), student loan interest (if you are using this worksheet, you probably don't have this), tuition deduction (you probably don't have this), a couple of rare deductions for foreign income/deductions (you probably don't have these), some savings bond interest you probably don't have much of, and some employer-provided adoption benefits. As you can see, for most people your MAGI = your AGI since all of these deductions are pretty rare for the folks worried about this limit for direct Roth IRA contributions. So focus on your AGI. That means if you contributed directly to a Roth IRA but late in the year realized you probably should not have, one easy fix is to get your AGI below that limit by contributing to an HSA or a self-employed retirement plan like an individual 401(k) or SEP-IRA. Note that giving a bunch of money to charity is NOT a solution to this problem because that is a below-the-line deduction.
How to Do an IRA Recharacterization
If you can't get your MAGI low enough, you will have to do an IRA Recharacterization. With a recharacterization, as far as the IRS is concerned it is as though you never made the Roth IRA contribution at all, but made a traditional IRA contribution instead. You don't report a recharacterization separately, you just report a traditional IRA contribution. Keep in mind as you read on the internet about recharacterizations that there used to be two types of them—a recharacterization of a Roth IRA CONTRIBUTION and a recharacterization of a Roth IRA CONVERSION. The second type was outlawed in 2018, but the first one, the one we're talking about today, is still perfectly legal. If you decide you want to undo a Roth conversion these days, you're simply out of luck. Here is how you do a recharacterization of a Roth IRA contribution:
- You tell Vanguard (or wherever your IRAs are) to recharacterize the Roth IRA contribution to a Traditional IRA contribution.
Yup. That's it. They take care of the rest. I mean, you can read all about all of the rules in Publication 590 Chapter 1 if you want, but that's basically what they say. Don't believe me? Fine. Here are the IRS instructions:
How Do You Recharacterize a Contribution?
To recharacterize a contribution, you must notify both the trustee of the first IRA (the one to which the contribution was actually made) and the trustee of the second IRA (the one to which the contribution is being moved) that you have elected to treat the contribution as having been made to the second IRA rather than the first. You must make the notifications by the date of the transfer. Only one notification is required if both IRAs are maintained by the same trustee. The notification(s) must include all of the following information:
- The type and amount of the contribution to the first IRA that is to be recharacterized.
- The date on which the contribution was made to the first IRA and the year for which it was made.
- A direction to the trustee of the first IRA to transfer in a trustee-to-trustee transfer the amount of the contribution and any net income (or loss) allocable to the contribution to the trustee of the second IRA.
- The name of the trustee of the first IRA and the name of the trustee of the second IRA.
- Any additional information needed to make the transfer.
In most cases, the net income you must transfer is determined by your IRA trustee or custodian.
See what I mean? It's just a phone call. Any earnings that the account had in between the contribution and the recharacterization just go over with the contribution. No big deal.
You have until your tax filing date to do this. Most of the time, that's April 15th of the next year. However, the IRS is even more lenient than that. You actually can do this for an extra six months after your tax filing date, but you will have to refile your return.
Where Do You Report a Recharacterization?
If you hire somebody else to prepare your taxes, you can skip this section. If you do it yourself, you'll need to make sure you report this correctly. According to Pub 590, you report it on our old friend Form 8606.
Pub 590 says this:
Actually, that's really misleading. If you read Form 8606, you will see that the only time it ever mentions a recharacterization is to tell you NOT to put it on the form.
So what is Pub 590 talking about? They're talking about this section in the 8606 instructions:
Reporting recharacterizations.
Treat any recharacterized IRA contribution as though the amount of the contribution was originally contributed to the second IRA, not the first IRA. For the recharacterization, you must transfer the amount of the original contribution plus any related earnings or less any related loss. In most cases, your IRA trustee or custodian figures the amount of the related earnings you must transfer. If you need to figure the related earnings, see How Do You Recharacterize a Contribution? in chapter 1 of Pub. 590-A. Treat any earnings or loss that occurred in the first IRA as having occurred in the second IRA. You can’t deduct any loss that occurred while the funds were in the first IRA. . .Report the nondeductible traditional IRA portion of the recharacterized contribution, if any, on Form 8606, Part I. Don’t report the Roth IRA contribution (whether or not you recharacterized all or part of it) on Form 8606. Attach a statement to your return explaining the recharacterization. If the recharacterization occurred in 2019, include the amount transferred from the Roth IRA on Form 1040 or 1040-SR, line 4a; or Form 1040-NR, line 16a. If the recharacterization occurred in 2020, report the amount transferred only in the attached statement, and not on your 2019 or 2020 tax return.
The bottom line is that you just report this recharacterized contribution on Form 8606 as if it were the regular old non-deductible traditional IRA contribution that you should have made in the first place. You also need to include a statement. What should your statement look like? I would write something like this:
To whom it may concern:
I made a 2021 Roth IRA contribution of $6,000 on March 13th, 2021, because I didn't know about the whole MAGI limit thing when I made the contribution. After becoming smarter, I recharacterized $6,137.14 (original contribution plus earnings) to a traditional IRA on November 4th, 2021, Thank you for helping our country fund its government. You're the best.
Hugs and kisses from your favorite taxpayer,
James Dahle
Seriously. It doesn't say what has to be on the statement, just that there is one “explaining the recharacterization.” You don't even have to tell them why you did the recharacterization. If you had a loss in the account between contribution and recharacterization, no big deal. It's still as though you made a $6,000 contribution to a traditional IRA and THEN it lost money. If you were able to deduct the contribution (you probably can't) you would get a $6,000 deduction. The IRA provider may also send you a Form 5498 (which has the recharacterized amount on line 4), but you don't actually do anything with it when you file your taxes. It's just an informational return.
Reconverting the IRA
Now here is where it gets interesting. You've now fixed your mistake in the eyes of the IRS, going from an illegal Roth IRA contribution to a legal traditional IRA contribution (that is probably not deductible for you). But you really aren't done with what you meant to do, which is put money into a Roth IRA. You now need to do a Roth conversion. You do it just like you normally would as if you had contributed originally to the traditional IRA. You can do it the very next day if you like. You can probably even do it the same day, just make sure there is a paper trail showing the money was actually in the traditional IRA at some point. There used to be a waiting period after a recharacterization before you could do a Roth conversion on that money, but that waiting period only ever applied to the recharacterization of a Roth CONVERSION (which is no longer allowed starting in 2018) NOT the recharacterization of a Roth CONTRIBUTION. So there is no waiting period. Just reconvert convert it and go on your merry way.
I hope this information helps you fix your mistake. Just do your Roth IRA contributions through the Back Door going forward and you won't have this problem again.
Step 2 Error – Not Investing in a Money Market Fund in the Traditional IRA
What happens if you LOSE money in between the contribution and conversion step? This problem is easily avoided by using an investment like a money market fund that does not go down in value for that time period, but some people fail to do so and end up losing money. When they work their way through their IRS Form 8606, they discover they have basis left over that they can then carry forward indefinitely for years! No big deal, it just makes your paperwork more complicated. Perhaps at some point in the future you'll do a Roth conversion of tax-deferred money and this carry forward basis will reduce the tax on that event.
What if you MADE money in the account between contribution and conversion? This actually happens most of the time, so I wrote an entire post on it called Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA. Technically, any money earned between the contribution and conversion step is fully taxable at ordinary income tax rates in the year of the conversion. If it is less than 50 cents, you just ignore it. More, you report it on your 8606 and pay taxes on it.
If it is still in the traditional IRA, either do another tiny Roth conversion or leave it there until you do next year's Backdoor Roth IRA process, either is fine. If you were smart and just used a money market fund and did the conversion as soon as your IRA provider allowed it (usually less than a week and sometimes as early as the next day), this won't be much money and there won't be much tax due.
Step 3 Error – Forgetting to Do the Conversion
If you forgot to do the conversion step for eight months afterward, it could be a huge gain you're paying taxes unnecessarily on. No way to fix this one, just pay your stupid tax and move on.
Step 4 Error – Forgetting to Invest the Roth IRA Money
Even worse than paying taxes on a huge gain, is not getting the gain in the first place because you left the money sitting in cash for months. No way to fix this one either. Your “stupid tax” this time comes in the form of opportunity cost. Just get the money invested ASAP to stop the cash drag. Maybe you even got lucky and the market went down in between contribution and investment so now you get to buy low.
Step 5 Error – The Pro-Rata Rule
Some of the most common questions I get are from people who make a late contribution to a Backdoor Roth IRA. What do I mean by late? Well, you are allowed to make an IRA contribution AFTER the calendar year ends. In fact, you have until tax day, usually April 15th unless you get an extension of up to six months. While it is to your advantage to contribute to retirement accounts as quickly as possible so that money can start compounding in a tax-protected way, I understand that we all have lots of good things to do with our money and sometimes this gets pushed back into the next calendar year. All it really does is complicate your paperwork a bit.
For example, if you made your 2020 IRA contribution in April 2021, instead of reporting both the contribution and the conversion on your 2020 taxes, you would report only the contribution there. The conversion would be reported on the taxes for the year you did the conversion, i.e., your 2021 tax return due in April 2022. Your 2020 IRS Form 8606 becomes a little simpler and your 2021 IRS Form 8606 becomes a little more complicated. Not a big deal if you can follow the simple instructions.
What confuses people, however, is the pro-rata rule. This is the rule that says you need to empty out your traditional IRA by December 31st of the year you do the conversion. Since these folks have never filled out a Form 8606 (or apparently read the instructions) they assume that for a 2020 contribution they need to have a balance of $0 at the end of 2020, even if they didn't do the conversion step until 2021. That's simply not the case. The pro-rata rule isn't applied until the year of the conversion, i.e., December 31st, 2021.
Emptying the IRAs
So how do you empty out those IRAs? You usually have two choices.
- Do a Roth conversion of the whole thing. This is what I generally recommend for small IRAs where the tax bill on the conversion would not be too onerous. It is quick, easy, and increases the amount of tax-free assets you have.
- Roll the money into a 401(k) or 403(b), either that of your current employer, that of a past employer, or to your own individual 401(k) if you are self-employed. This is usually a better option if you have a large IRA where you would rather deal with the hassle than pay the tax bill during your peak earnings years.
So how large is large and how small is small? Well, it's going to vary by the person and how much disposable cash they have. Most would consider an IRA under $10K to be small and an IRA over $100K to be large. In between, it's a personal decision as to which would be better for you.
What If You Didn't Empty the IRA?
So what if you screwed this one up? Well, your Backdoor Roth IRA conversion step just got pro-rata'd. There is a tax bill associated with that because most of your conversion was of tax-deferred money rather than post-tax money like it was supposed to be.
The fix for this is going to vary by the individual, but the easiest fix is to simply convert the entire IRA to a Roth IRA now, so you end up getting all your post-tax money into that Roth IRA. Another possible fix is to figure out a way to separate your basis in that IRA, roll the tax-deferred money into a 401(k), and then convert the basis left behind in the IRA.
Do yourself a favor and just empty the darn IRA by December 31st. Keep in mind that this is usually not an instantaneous process, so don't put it off until you're on holiday break at the end of the year.
Step 6 Error – Screwing Up the Tax Forms
Both individual taxpayers and professional tax preparers screw up IRS Form 8606 all the time. In fact, some of them haven't even heard of a Backdoor Roth IRA. (Incidentally, this is one of the best questions to ask while interviewing a potential tax professional—”How many backdoor Roth IRAs did you help last year?”)
The usual fix to this error is to file a 1040X (Amended Tax Return) and a new Form 8606. You can do this for the last three years if necessary. If you didn't file Form 8606 at all, you'll definitely want to do this. The key is to check lines 15c and 18 on Form 8606. They should both be a number very close to zero if the form is being completed correctly.
The tax preparer should NOT be filing Form 5439. If you did Steps 1-5 right, this form probably doesn't belong in your tax return.
A lot of people wonder about the 1099-R sent to them by their IRA provider and worry that it was done wrong and that it will cause them to pay tax they shouldn't have to pay. Sometimes the form was filled out wrong, but mostly this is just a lot of anxiety. What gets people anxious is finding something on Line 2a “Taxable amount.” As long as the box on Line 2b is also checked “Taxable amount not determined,” you're golden. Don't worry about it. If it is not, have the IRA provider send you a new, correct form, either with $0 in 2a or the box in 2b checked (usually the latter). Here's what mine looks like every year from Vanguard:
Note that Box 2b is checked, even though they are reporting a taxable amount of $5,500.07 to the IRS [$6,000.07 in 2021].
Again, if you're not sure how to enter this into Turbotax, check out my Turbotax tutorial.
Still Confused About the Backdoor Roth?
Need more help with a Backdoor Roth IRA? I wish Congress would just lift the rule against direct Roth IRA contributions for high earners and save us all this hassle, but who knows if that will ever happen.
- If you did your contribution after the end of the year, check out Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA.
- Here's a step-by-step tutorial for doing a Backdoor Roth IRA at Vanguard.
- Here's a step-by-step tutorial for doing a Backdoor Roth IRA at Fidelity.
- Here is a step-by-step tutorial reporting the Backdoor Roth IRA in Turbotax.
- Here is my prior post on 17 Ways to Screw Up Your Backdoor Roth IRA.
- You can hire a professional to help you, either a good financial advisor or a good tax strategist can assist.
- You can also ask your peers for help on the WCI Forum, the Private WCI Facebook Group, and the WCI Subreddit.
Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA
While it is “cleaner” to make your contribution and your conversion all in the same calendar tax year, you can make your contribution up until your tax filing date of the next year. Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA has more details about doing this but hasn't been updated in a while, so let's do it now. The key to filling out the 8606 correctly when you make a contribution after the calendar year is to recognize that the contribution step is reported for the tax year and the conversion step is reported for the calendar year. So imagine you did the following during the calendar year 2021:
- Made a 2020 IRA contribution (reported on 2020 8606)
- Did a Roth conversion of that contribution (reported on 2021 8606)
- Made a 2021 IRA contribution (reported on 2021 8606)
- Did a Roth conversion of that contribution (reported on 2021 8606)
Your forms would look like this:
2020 Form 8606 (Only Have to Fill Out Part I)
Note that all this serves to do is report basis for the next year. No tax is due. Since no conversion step was done during the calendar year 2020, you only have to fill out lines 1-3 and 14.
2021 Form 8606 (Must Fill Out Parts I and II)
Notice a couple of things here. First, you've got to do all of Part I plus Part II for this year because you did the conversion step, unlike last year (2020). Second, don't get confused by the fact that this form above says “2020” and line 4 asks about 2021. This is the 2020 form but you will actually be filling out the 2021 form. The 2021 form isn't published yet by the IRS so I had to use the 2020 form for this demonstration. So add one year to anything you see here. Let's go through this line by line.

Your Roth IRA contributions will need to go through the “backdoor” many times as you build your portfolio.
Form 8606 – Part I
- Line 1 – That's the money you contributed for 2021.
- Line 2 – This is your basis. Since you made a contribution for 2020 but didn't do a conversion during 2020, your basis is $6,000.
- Line 3 – $6,000 + $6,000 = $12,000
- Line 4 – Remember this is asking about 2022, not 2021 and since you won't make the mistake of doing your contribution late again, this will be zero.
- Line 5 – $12,000 – $0 = $12,000
- Line 6 – This is the line that triggers the pro-rata issue. Even though you made a 2020 contribution, you did so AFTER December 31st, so this line would still be zero if you filled it out for 2020, which you didn't because you didn't do a conversion in 2020 and got to skip lines 4-13. But this is the 2021 form and since you converted your entire traditional IRA, this will be $0.
- Line 7 – This doesn't include conversions. Since you didn't take any money out of your traditional IRA this year except the conversion, this is $0
- Line 8 – You converted a total of $12,000 this year to a Roth IRA, so $12,000.
- Line 9 – $0 + $0 + $12,000 = $12,000
- Line 10 – $12,000/$12,000 = 1
- Line 11 – $12,000 * 1 = $12,000
- Line 12 – $0 * 1 = $0
- Line 13 – $12,000 + $0 = $12,000
- Line 14 – $12,000 – $12,000 = $0 Note that when you do this form for 2022, line 2 will be $0. (Line 14 on 2021 form = Line 2 of 2022 form.)
- Line 15a – $0 – $0 = $0
- Line 15b – You didn't take money out of an IRA to help you survive a disaster, so $0.
- Line 15c – $0 – $0 = $0
Part II
- Line 16 – Line 8 is $12,000 so $12,000
- Line 17 – Line 11 is $12,000 so $12,000
- Line 18 – $12,000 – $12,000 = $0
Backdoor Roth IRA FAQs
Can I still do a Backdoor Roth IRA for last year?
You have until tax day (generally April 15th, but as late as October 15th if you file an extension) of the following year to make your traditional IRA contribution. There is no deadline for the Roth conversion step; it can be done at anytime. Make sure you fill out the paperwork properly according to the section above about late contributions.
Can I do last year's IRA contribution and this year's IRA contribution at the same time and convert them at the same time?
Yes. Just remember to report last year's contribution on last year's Form 8606 and this year's contribution and the conversion on this year's Form 8606.
Does my 401(k), 403(b), 457(b), Roth IRA, or inherited IRA count toward the pro-rata calculation?
No. Only traditional IRAs, rollover IRAs, SEP-IRAs, and SIMPLE IRAs count. See line 6 of Form 8606 for details.
What if it is a separate IRA? Does it still count?
Yes. All IRAs count toward the pro-rata calculation.
What should I do with my rollover or traditional IRA to avoid pro-ration?
If it is small, convert it to a Roth IRA along with this year's traditional IRA contribution and pay the tax due on it. If large, try to roll it into your employer's 401(k) or if you have self-employment income, into your individual 401(k).
I got pro-rated. What now?
The easiest solution is to convert the entire IRA, SEP-IRA, or SIMPLE IRA that caused the pro-ration and is now composed of both pre-tax and after-tax money. That is also the most expensive solution. A harder solution that may save you some taxes involves isolating the basis in that IRA by rolling the rest of the account into a 401(k) and then convert just the basis to a Roth IRA.
I am leaving my employer. Should I roll my 401(k) or 403(b) into a traditional IRA? If not, what should I do with it?
If you put it into a traditional IRA it is going to cause any future Backdoor Roths to be pro-rated. Better options include leaving it where it is, rolling it into your new employer's 401(k) or 403(b), rolling it into your individual 401(k), or if it is small, just converting the whole thing to a Roth IRA.
How much can I contribute to a Roth IRA via the Backdoor Roth IRA process?
In 2021, you are allowed to contribute $6,000 ($7,000 if 50+) per year for you and $6,000 ($7,000 if 50+) for your spouse. This includes all contributions to traditional and Roth IRAs. Rollovers/transfers do not count toward the annual contribution limit.
What should I invest the money into?
While in the traditional IRA for a day or two, leave it in cash. Once it is in the Roth IRA, invest it according to your written investing plan. If you don't have one, get one, but in the meantime it would be a good idea to put it into a lifecycle fund such as a Vanguard Target Retirement Fund.
Can I use the same traditional and Roth IRA each year or do I need new ones?
You can use the same ones each year.
The Backdoor Roth IRA process leads to more tax-free retirement account money for doctors and other high-income professionals. If you follow the simple steps outlined above, you will pay less in taxes, boost your returns, facilitate your estate planning, and increase your asset protection. Most members of The White Coat Investor community do these every year and you should too.
What do you think? Are you doing Backdoor Roth IRAs? Why or why not? Any questions about it? Comment below!
[This updated post was originally published in 2014.]
Hi. Thank you for your fantastic website and books. I have read The WCI and Financial Boot Camp. Despite now having a little financial knowledge, I haven’t executed anything. I am part of a single-income family (me, wife and daughter) and just finished training. We have managed to stay out of debt, but haven’t been able to invest either. In a month, I will start working as an attending and be ready to implement what I learned here. A few very basic questions regarding IRAs:
1) This year we will still fall under a MAGI of $208,000, so I will plan to contribute straight to Roth. Do I need to create two separate accounts in order to contribute for me and my wife (one for each of us)?
2) Can I open a Traditional IRA account and not deposit any money on it (asking this question because since I am going to have to open a Roth account I was going to go ahead and open the Traditional IRA account at the same time)? Or should I wait until next year when ready to do the Backdoor to open a Traditional IRA account, deposit the $6K and then convert to Roth? I assume that I will also need to open a separate Traditional IRA account for my wife (?) (totaling two accounts for each of us – traditional and Roth (?)).
Thanks again for your help!
Andre
1. Great. Yes. IRA stands for INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangement. So both you and your wife need your own.
2. Yes. But I’d just wait until next year. No sense in having an account you don’t yet need. It literally only takes a couple of minutes to open an IRA at Vanguard or Fidelity. Yes, you will each need your own traditional and Roth IRAs to contribute to a Roth IRA indirectly, i.e. via the Backdoor Roth IRA process.
Perfect. Thank you so much!
Thank you for the excellent info.
Before I understood the wonders of the back door Roth, I rolled an old 401K into a traditional IRA. I did this about 2 weeks ago, amount is ~$9k. This is the only IRA I have. Following your tips for what to do with the traditional balance, I plan to move the $9k to my current 401k. I’ll then contribute $6k to a traditional and do a Roth conversion.
Will my basis be $0 for 2021? I see form 8606, line 2 where the instructions state to include “rolled over any non taxable portion of your qualified retirement plan to a traditional IRA…” I did rollover the $9k to a traditional, but does form only care about balances in other IRAs as of 12/31? If so, I’m trying to find something that states 12/31 for my cpa.
Yes. Line 2 is zero and so long as you get the rollover done by December 31st, line 6 will also be zero. Perfect!
I just graduated residency and I’ve started my new attending job. I rolled over all of my prior employer’s ROTH401k (mostly post tax, but the employer match was pretax) into my ROTH IRA, and I will pay taxes on the pre-tax conversion. Now, I’m not sure whether to do ROTH401k or pre-tax 401K with my new employer. I believe I also have the option to split whatever percentage I want into each respective category. I was thinking I would do the ROTH401k option but I also get a signing bonus this year so I wasn’t sure if that was a wise move. How should I calculate this?
This post should help:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/should-you-make-roth-or-traditional-401k-contributions/
When I clicked on the form number from this sentence: “The tax preparer should NOT be filing Form 5439. ” Form 5329 on the IRS website came up.
which one is correct?
thanks,
Karen
I don’t know what you’re talking about with Form 5439. I couldn’t find a form with that number. Certainly you don’t need that form to do a Backdoor Roth IRA.
This sentence is in under Step#6:
“The tax preparer should NOT be filing Form 5439. If you did steps 1-5 right, this form probably doesn’t belong in your tax return.”
My CPA filed Form 5329 – I think what’s confusing him is on Form 1099-R , in Box 7 is code 7, which is “Normal Distribution”.
Should I get Schwab to change this?
thanks,
Karen
Maybe that is the issue. My 1099-R always has “2” (early distribution, exception applies) in box 7
If I have $6,000 in my traditional IRA from contribution made 2 years ago, without getting any tax benefits or deductions, but for which no other additions forms such as 8606 were filed at the time; then, could I just use that $6,000 for backdoor Roth conversion this year, leaving $0 in the sum of IRA’s? Then just file a 8606 this year on 2021 tax return as outlined on the website and just report or ‘pretend’ that the $6000 contribution was made to the transitional IRA this year and converted to Roth IRA, instead of reporting that the money converted was from contribution made 2 years ago? Thank you for all the help and advice
The reason you file 1099Xs and 8606s for past years is so you can demonstrate your basis so you don’t have to pay taxes on it again. That way your conversion of that $6K per year is tax-free. Now if you don’t have basis because you got a deduction for those contributions, then you don’t need form 8606. But if you do, you’re just throwing thousands of dollars to not go back and refile those 8606s.
Not sure that would work because you don’t have any paperwork saying you made a contribution to the IRA (this year)you are taking the money from. The way I see it, where did this $6000 come from , oh no prior year 8606, then you will owe taxes on the conversion to the (back door) Roth ( which could extra taxes for sure). You may be able to refile and add the 8606 form for the year you contributed.
Whether you refile or not, you should claim basis if you legitimately have basis. But don’t be surprised if you have to prove you have basis in an audit. The easiest way to avoid the audit is to go back and file the three previous returns correctly.
I have done the recharacterization of Roth IRA contribution to traditional IRA via Vanguard. I have read the guidance you have provided on filling out Form 8606 for this, including the need to include a statement (thank you!). How do I include such a statement if I’m e-filing using Turbotax (I’ve seen you provide other guidance for filing in Turbotax but haven’t seen any on this specific point). Thanks in advance!
I think there is a place in Turbotax to type in a statement someplace.
https://ttlc.intuit.com/community/business-taxes/discussion/i-need-to-add-a-statement-attachment-to-my-s-corp-k-1-info-regarding-reg-1-1367-1-reduced-basis/00/752677#:~:text=To%20include%20the%20statement%20using,statement%20can%20be%20written%20there.
“To include the statement using a TurboTax desktop version, view the return in Forms Mode. Select the Open Form button at the top. Then type Blank in the search bar. A blank form will generate and your statement can be written there.”
Thank you
I have done the recharacterization of Roth IRA contribution to traditional IRA via Vanguard. I have read the guidance you have provided on filling out Form 8606 for this, including the need to include a statement (thank you!). How do I include such a statement if I’m e-filing using Turbotax (I’ve seen you provide other guidance for filing in Turbotax but haven’t seen any on this specific point). Thanks in advance!
Hello,
This year 2021, for the first time I will try to do a backdoor Roth IRA. After opening traditional IRA and converting it to Roth IRA, what should I do to the traditional IRA account? Should I keep it open at $0 balance or close it out? For next year, will I open a new traditional IRA account and convert to the existing Roth IRA?
Thank you,
Angela
Yes, leave it open. Use the same one every year for simplicity.
Thank you for providing all of the information in this site – this is the most comprehensive and comprehensible collection of information on backdoor Roths I have found, and has clarified many items for me.
Based on the details outlined, I believe I have a plan for how to progress to leverage the backdoor Roth for 2021. My main questions are whether I’m missing anything in my plan, or if there is any reason why I should not tackle all of these aspects in one year, as outside of several 401ks, I currently have two legacy IRAs that I need to deal with first:
1) I have a rollover pre-tax IRA (large size – created in 2003) that I plan to roll into my current 401k (which is a combination of Roth and pre-tax monies).
2) Next, I have a small non-deductible Roth IRA from 2014. This was actually from contributions to a Roth IRA that I realized by mid-year that I was not eligible to make due to the likelihood of exceeding the income limit for Roth contributions in 2014. These funds were then recharacterized into a separate IRA, which has accumulated ~$6000 in earnings since then. I would look to convert this into a Roth IRA and pay taxes on the earnings, as I don’t believe there’s any way around that. I would keep this as a separate Roth IRA account to simplify future accounting as I tend to do per funding source.
3) Open a traditional IRA and fund it with after-tax dollars up to the limit prior ($6000 for under 50 years old) once the above two steps are completed. Invest those funds in a money market or similar fund to minimize growth.
4) As soon as possible, convert the funds in the traditional IRA to a Roth IRA, leaving the traditional IRA open to leverage for tax year 2022 in January. I will convert these funds into another Roth IRA account again to simplify future accounting.
Am I missing anything with respect to my plan above, or any reason why these steps could not all be completed in the coming weeks?
Also, I do have two legacy cash balance pension plans with small amounts in them (they accrue funds based on a low annual interest), but I don’t believe those play a role in this as they are not IRAs.
Thanks again for the great site!
Kevin
I have an mixed IRA account with both pre tax and non-deductible IRA contributions ( for the last 20 yrs). Can I still convert the non-deductible IRA contributions to a Roth IRA. Are there any tax consequences as a result? Is it complicated to do it if its possible?
Thanks
Yes, but you better do it before the end of the year as the ability to do so may be going away. You’ll owe tax on everything in the IRA that is pre-tax. That is, if you’ve contributed $50K in non-deductible money and it is worth $150K, you’ll owe taxes on an extra $100K in income.
I thought you will owe tax on the entire $150K since no tax was paid on both base and gain when doing the ROTH conversion. But after conversion you will be tax free on any distribution with no age limitations.
My understanding of this question is Raj said he has some non-deductible contributions in this IRA. If he has filled out the form 8606 and has proof of the basis he should be able to take that part out of the IRA since he already paid tax on those funds. An easy way to do that is move the pretax money over to a 401k (if allowed) and move the non-deductible part to (convert) a Roth IRA. WCI has written lots of information on this. Run it by who holds your money because they will be the one doing it (Fidelity, Schwab, who ever) and your tax person because all of this is getting filed this year. If you don’t like your answer’s, ask someone else because lots of people have done it. It’s all in and on the WCI website.
Good luck, nothing easy if it was everyone be doing it.
Know one watches your money better than you 🙂
You don’t pay tax on basis, i.e. contributions that have been previously taxed, when you do a Roth conversion.
Hi Jim and white coat investor team/readers,
First off, thank you for everything you do. Your book financial bootcamp is worth its weight in gold.
I am hoping to do the back door Roth IRA for the first time this year. I tried last year but the representative at my broker site had me fill out a re-characterization form rather than a conversion form (Merrill Lynch). I was able to fix this with the help of this website and made a $6000 contribution 3/2021 to be counted towards my 2020 contribution and then made another $6000 this past month for 2021. So I currently have $12,000 in my traditional IRA ready to be converted to my Roth. Learn from my mistake and make sure you are filling out a conversion form.
MY QUESTION IS THIS:
Merrill Lynch is asking me if I want to “withhold federal taxes” during this conversion. Do I say “yes” or “no” to this? I am also doing this is in MA and they tell me that MA requires a mandatory 5% tax on this conversion. Does this make sense?
Thank you, hope to hear from you soon,
Ben
That all sounds pretty scary. Another reason to get my money out of Merrill. Makes no sense to withhold taxes because that is less money working for you in your Roth account. Write them a check when you do your taxes. Its kind of like (so called ) advisor’s help themselves to your money that should be growing in the retirement account (write them a check).
Good luck, WCI will know the answer.
No. Don’t withhold. There is no tax due. Say no. No, it doesn’t make sense for MA to withhold either when no tax is due. Get away from Merrill Lynch and get a real advisor.
I have a trad ira that i use to hold roll over contributions from prior jobs, can is till use this for backdoor ira?
Sounds like you are talking about a conversion, you are converting your traditional to a Roth IRA.
A back door IRA is when you make too much income that year to do a Roth IRA. So what you do is a non deductible contribution to a traditional IRA and then roll it over (backdoor) to a Roth IRA. Since you all ready paid the taxes on the money and your can’t deduct it, its just like doing the Roth (just with an extra step). Good luck and double check this info (I have been doing for many years).
PS make sure you don’t have any other IRA’s, because this all matters come April (when you file your tax’s). Read the WCI’s many articles and information on all this
That traditional IRA balance will cause you to be prorated if you don’t convert the whole thing or roll it into a 401k.
Hello! First of all, thank you very much for your guide!
My MAGI is above the income bracket for 2021 where I am not able to contribute to a Roth IRA. I contributed $6,000 to my ROTH IRA earlier in the year (January 2021). Here are my steps that I took:
1) Opened a Traditional IRA with Vanguard
2) Called Vanguard and asked them to do a recharacterization from my Roth IRA to the newly opened Traditional IRA
3) The funds have moved from the Roth IRA to my Traditional IRA which my initial $6,000 investment has grown to $7,600
Questions on the next steps:
1) Do I convert then entire amount of $7,600 from the Traditional IRA to the Roth IRA
2) When I fill out Form 8606, do I need to mention the gains (gain of $1,600) or put $7,600 anywhere? Or do I just fill out Form 8606 with the $6,000 as you had laid out in the screenshots below your “Step 6 – Fill Out IRS Form 8606 Correctly”.
Thank you so much for your time as it is very much appreciated!
Best regards,
Robert
1. Yes
2. Yes, you’ll owe taxes on $1,600.
More info here:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/ira-recharacterizations/
I did the rollover from 401k to traditional IRA, and then I put 6k after tax money to the traditional IRA. After that, I did the backdoor to Roth IRA with those 6k. Is that possible? In this case, do i need to pay any tax? OR should I open one more traditional IRA account, one for the rollover, one for the backdoor only?
No, that rollover will be pro-rated. You’ll owe tax on a certain percentage of it. Doesn’t matter how many IRAs you have, you need the total of all to be $0 by December 31st to avoid pro-ration, and your only option to avoid that fate now is to convert the entire thing to a Roth in the next 6 weeks.
Just wonder, if I did the backdoor conversion. Will they close my traditional IRA account because of 0 balance? If any one here using Merrill, please let me know the process. I just checked the info. Need to file IRA/IRRA® to Roth IRA Conversion Form to finish the conversion, and the traditional IRA account will be close? If so, can I keep re-opening the new traditional IRA account for the backdoor?
Anybody know what is the best way to pull money out of over contributed Roth? Two separate accounts managed to put to an extra $1,000 total for the year ($7,000 instead of $6,000). Should the extra $1000 just get transferred back out and is there any extra paperwork involved, what about if any earnings?
Thanks,D
The $1,000 and any earnings attributed to it need to come out. Not a big deal though. Just contact the institution holding the IRA.
After reading and re-reading I’m slightly still confused 🙁
I am reaching out for some advice prior to the year ending. I currently have a Fidelity Rollover IRA that has existed for a while. Which includes all of my left over 401ks from previous employers. In 2020 I also made a contribution of the annual eligible amount. However, this year I did something different which I think I need to undo or correct before year end.
I opened a Traditional IRA with TIAA then converted it to a ROTH IRA account with TIAA. I was under the impression you could have both (Traditional and ROTH) even if you did not qualify to contribute directly to the ROTH IRA. But it has come to my attention that that might not be the case when completing the required forms (8606) considering the pro-rata rule may apply to the Rollover IRA. I am well vested in the Rollover IRA and wish to make no changes. I was wondering, in order to save some headache/heartache, should I contact TIAA to have the ROTH IRA moved back to a Traditional IRA? But I’m slightly confused because I read that “recharacterization” no longer is an option.
Any insight you can provide would be helpful.
Note: I am not a business owner but but I’m not to use the ROTH IRA direct contribution
Pretty sure you can have a Roth and Traditional contribution at the same time, you just can NOT contribute more than the limit total. The prorated rule will apply (that’s why they have it). Not sure about transferring back, The reason is because you can’t Recharacterization. Sounds like you will be paying tax on the money (prorated) that went into the Roth.
A better option (for next time) if able is to move all the IRA money into your current 401K, get your IRA to ZERO and then every year do the back door Roth IRA with no problem.
WCI has written many articles on this, good luck.
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.
Your conversion this year will be pro-rated and you’re going to have basis in the IRA going forward to track each year on Form 8606. I’m sorry. The only way to eliminate that at this point is to convert the entire traditional IRA to a Roth IRA, which you don’t seem inclined to do due to the tax cost.
IRA conversions can no longer be recharacterized unfortunately, so your move can’t be reversed.
I guess it’s not the end of the world to have basis in the IRA indefinitely, but it certainly creates some ongoing hassle for you.
Maybe you could isolate your basis by rolling the tax-deferred portion of the IRA into a 401(k) and convert what’s left at some point in the future.
Yikes! Ok I appreciate the reply. To prevent the hassle going forward. I’m considering emptying the ROTH *pay the stupid tax 🙁 until I’m ready to make a the right moves.
Hi,
I have an individual 401k and a 403b account. Is the limit for elective deferral (employer) contribution to both the accounts in aggregate $19500 for 2021?
For example, if I contribute $10 k to my 403b account then I can contribute up to $9500 into my individual 401k account as employee contribution. Am I missing anything?
I can also contribute additional amount to my individual 401 k as part of profit sharing/ employee contribution, right?
Thank you
$19,500 is the limit, (unless over 50 years old then another $6,500). If where you work plan allows, you can contribute after tax funds (Mega back door Roth IRA). I am not sure I understand your question.
Appreciate your answer. I am under 50. Trying to understand if annual max of $19500 is for both 401k and 403b accounts I have or is it $19500 for each account.
My understanding is the total amount of employee contribution between 401 k s d 403b accounts can’t be more than $19500. In other words $19500 can be contribute to both 401 k and 403b together.
That’s correct. More details here:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/multiple-401k-rules/
The $19,500 elective deferral is what I usually call the “employee” contribution. The total contribution (employee + employer) is $58K in 2021.
I’m not sure if this was covered anywhere (of course I found this website after already making moves), but I was wondering how best to handle two different situations regarding proper reporting on the form 8606. In the first situation, I contributed $6000 to a non-deductible IRA for 2020 in March of 2021 and completed my taxes later that month before I realized that an 8606 needed to be filed. Money has been converted to Roth. How best to proceed? Send in a late 8606 showing a $6000 contribution or just file the following year listing the $6000 under total basis?
In situation 2, a contribution was made to a traditional IRA in May of 2021 for 2020 (within the COVID extension) after taxes were already filed March. It’s not great that you can make a contribution after already filing taxes for that year! This money has also been converted to Roth. Any idea on how to proceed? Send in a late 8606 showing a $6000 contribution or just file the following year listing the $6000 under total basis?
Thank you for your help.
File a 2020 8606 for the contribution. I’ve been told by some that you don’t even have to send in a 1040X with it, but I probably would. The conversion will be reported on your 2021 8606 filed next year.
Same answer.
Thank you for your prompt reply. The contribution wouldn’t prompt any changes to any of the values on the 1040-X right?
No, but there is a section on there where you explain why you’re filing an amended return.
Thank you very much for your response. I’m sorry a few more thoughts- Am I required to send in the 8606 to my state as well? I’m thinking that since it was not part of my original federal return that was sent in, they would be interested? Speaking of the state (I’m in VA) any idea if they require a special form similar to the 8606 for reporting the Roth contribution/conversion during tax time? I believe it is just the federal return included with their tax return. Thanks!
If it changes your tax due, then yes. If not, I’m guessing they don’t care.
Hi,
Apologies if this was addressed earlier. I filed 2020 taxes in Feb. 2021 and then did a backdoor Roth in early April 2021 – I made a 6K contribution to a traditional IRA and then immediately converted this to a Roth account. The contribution was assigned to Tax Year 2021 and I am trying to have Vanguard re-assign it to Tax Year 2020 (given the uncertainty of backdoor Roths next year, I am just trying to maximize contributions spanning two tax years). If this is possible, I can contribute another 6K to my traditional IRA assigned for Tax Year 2021 now and then immediately convert it to Roth again, correct? Do I need to addend my 2020 taxes to reflect the 6K contribution made for that tax year?
Many thanks for this wonderful website and community you have created here!
Yes.
Yes. Amend, not addend. File an 8606 and 1040X.
Sorry if this has been asked in previous comments, I scrolled through as many as I could. There is no longer a form 1040 A, so where/how would we report the info from form 8606 on a 1040 form?
No, 1040A went away in 2018. Form 8606 carries over to the 1040 line 4b.
Hi Dr. James Dahle (WCI),
Great post and great answers here!
I only recently got to know the idea of Backdoor Roth, and even though I have now moved the $7K to a new traditional IRA account at Fidelity ready to do a backdoor conversion before the year’s end, it dawned on me after reading your post that due to I already have both traditional and rollover IRA accounts at Fidelity, I will encounter the pro rata issue you mentioned if I do the backdoor. I even went through the trouble to set up a new traditional IRA account at Fidelity just for the purpose of backdoor Roth conversion, thinking that not touching the other existing IRAs there, the pro rata issue won’t hit me. But after reading your post and answers to other’s questions, it’s clear to me now that having a seperate IRA account won’t resolve the issue for me 🙁
The problem for me is, I can’t just simply “empty” the IRAs like you said, as my rollover IRA has grown to pass $1M now (the money was rolled over from my multiple previous jobs some 20 years ago), and converting that to Roth now would incur serious tax on me, as I am at the peak earning right now in my career just a few years from retirement. If I convert, the capital gains would most likely making my total AGI passing $400K, which will make me to be taxed heavily under the new wealthy tax rule that Biden has proposed for “high income earners”.
My current employer does have 401K at Vanguard for us, and I might be able to roll the IRA over there (haven’t checked with them yet), but I don’t really want to do that, as IRA at Fidelity allows me to invest in any stocks I want, and Vanguard’s 401K investment options is very limited. Also given the fact that we have only about a week left before the EOY, I won’t have the time to sell all the stocks in the Fidelity rollover & traditional IRAs for me to do the backdoor Roth conversion by the end of the year anyway.
So what should I do now? Bite the bullets and pay huge tax this year by selling $1M+ IRAs just to do a $7k backdoor Roth? (it doesn’t feel right to me to take this approach)? Or, give up on this whole idea, simply because the tax benefit won’t compute given the huge capital gains has been made in my IRAs over the past 2-3 decades? Maybe just keep things simple and invest the $7K in a traditional IRA in the next couple of years before retirement?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
I agree $1M is probably too big to convert, so if you don’t want to roll it over into your 401(k) (or can’t, but that’s less likely) I guess the Backdoor Roth IRA isn’t for you.
Thank you for the reply and let me know your thoughts! Appreciated again!
I provided a bit longer answer to Drex88’s comments below. Please let me know if you see I missed anything, or if there’s a simple way to calculate the pro-rata to “empty” the existing rollover and traditional IRA accounts at Fidelity, to enable this backdoor Roth.
I have already deposited $7K into a new traditional IRA account at Fidelity, anticipating doing this backdoor. But given the pro-rata issue, I guess I just keep this traditional IRA account and invest the $7K in it.
Or maybe I can just move that $7K into the existing traditional IRA account at Fidelity there, and delete this new account that was set up for the backdoor purpose, just to keep things simple and don’t have too many accounts to deal with. Your thoughts?
Thanks again!
If the accounts are emptied, there is no pro-rata.
But if you have pre-tax and after-tax traditional IRAs, I’d keep them separate in hopes that you can get the pro-rata issue fixed either this year or in a separate year.
Well, that is a lot of stuff to think about but you are in the right place. Some of us were/are in the same situation. I am not a doctor or professional financial person so this is just my opinion. There is not enough information here and everyone situation is different.
First do you already have a Roth? If you don’t, I would say convert at least $100 to a Roth to get the 5 year clock going. The clock starts January the year you open it so get that done if you don’t already have a Roth IRA (same for your partner).
Second since it is late in the year and you don’t want to rush into something like this (but you could), find out if you can move the $1Million plus IRA to the 401K (do you have a basis and have you been filling out form 8606 every year). The plan being to get any/all IRA’s growth, gains, dividends etc. into the 401K and only have money in the IRA that was documented (form 8606) left over. If you don’t have that, then get the IRA to zero (not including this year $7000). Once that is done than you can move the $7,000 over (back door) to the Roth since your total IRA is now just $7,000 (which is a nondeductible contribution). You will not have to pay any taxes doing this way. Please run all this pass a tax pro or get WCI advice on this.
Now every year you can put $7,000 into the IRA and convert/rollover to the Roth IRA. Vanguard has a lot of good funds and not everyone needs to be into individual stocks. You can buy stocks when you start moving the 401K (tax deferred money) into the Roth IRA (later, when in a lower tax bracket). Also look into doing a Mega back door Roth IRA with your current job. When that money gets moved over to a Roth IRA (back at Fidelity) you can buy stocks.
The hard part of all of this is when to move the money from the tax deferred bucket (401K & IRA) over to the Roth bucket. There is lots of u-tube video’s on the subject along with this most excellent website (WCI). Good luck and when you figure it out let me know 🙂
I am still working on the last part myself.
Thank you Drex88!
Yes, I do already have Roth accounts for both me and my wife for many years. So converting my $7K after-tax contribution to Roth is not an option for me now. Plus, I am over the income limit to contribute anything to our Roth accounts any way.
What’s the “5-year clock” thing you talked about for Roth? Our Roth accounts were set many years ago when our incomes were below the limit, but we stopped contributing to them over the past several years due to income above the limit line.
In any case, back to the Backdoor Roth thing…
Since the IRA accounts were set up and contributed to many years ago, and since the accounts have grown a lot since then, I no longer be able to figure out exactly what was the original contribution amount and what was the capital gain amount, not to mention that Fidelity doesn’t keep a record of that anyway. Given that the gain amount vastly outstrip the after-tax contribution amount, I think realistically I won’t go through the hassle to dig out all the 8606 form in my past 30+years of tax returns and trying to figure out which part is what when I take the money out, but simply treat every withdraw as a capital gain and just pay tax on the whole amount when I start taking money out after retirement.
So, to answer your comment, no, I have no clue, or don’t know how to calculate, or don’t want to be bothered to figure out what’s the original contribution, what’s the capital gain, what’s the dividend, etc., in my IRA money. I’d rather just pay tax on the whole amount and spend my time on doing other fun stuff in retirement 🙂 Please tell me if I am wrong here, and there’s a simple ways to figure this mess out.
To move my rollover IRAs and traditional IRAs to Vanguard, it would require me to sell all stock and mutual fund positions in those accounts, before I can even move the money to Vanguard. Since it takes 5 business days for Fidelity to settle all the sales, I probably won’t be able to empty the IRA accounts by EOY even if I do that, which will miss the date to complete the backdoor process in the same year, and that will further complicate the tax return next year.
But the biggest problem is the pro-rata tax computation – as I mentioned, selling my IRAs to move the money, will force me to pay huge tax right now, and this may not be the best move since I could sell IRAs after retirement when I have no salary income. So it seems that it’s not worth it to pay tax on selling $1M+ worth of IRAs just to get the $7K into Roth – a 28% flat capital gain tax on the total amount means I will have to pay $280K+ on tax in next year’s tax return. James-WCI seems to agree with my assessment from his reply above that doing backdoor Roth may not be a good idea for me. Please let me know if I missed anything.
Thanks a lot for your insights and advice!
First off I would always go with what Jim (WCI) says because I ask him for advice.
So a lot of questions and some misunderstanding.
5 year clock on Roth IRA’s from the internet (Nerd Wallet)
“In general, you can withdraw your Roth IRA contributions at any time. But you can only pull the earnings out of a Roth IRA after age 59 1/2 and after owning the account for at least five years. Withdrawing that money earlier can trigger taxes and an 10% early withdrawal penalty. However, there are many exceptions.
The 5-year rule for Roth IRAs requires you to hold your account for at least five years in order to avoid paying taxes or even penalties on the earnings in your Roth IRA.”
Sounds like you have this covered since you have had your Roth open 5 years and older than 59 1/2.
If you sell or convert $1million dollars out of your traditional IRA you will be paying a lot more than 28% in taxes.
“Over $628,300 $168,993.50 plus 37% of the excess over $628,300” from Forbes.
Nobody is recommending that (that’s just silly). What you could do, if allowed in your 401K plan is to move it all (your IRA)to your Vanguard 401K. I would start there and see if you can do that. 1 out of 5 401K plan allow it (yours might not). Then you have zero in the traditional IRA and every time after that a nondeducabe contribution IRA can be back door rolled over to a Roth IRA tax free ( you already paid the tax)
Form 8606, if you never did it it would be pretty hard to come up with it now. What I did was fill it out every year, its just a form that says what did you add to your IRA with post tax money every year and what is the total. Then you have a basis, an example could be you have a Million in your traditional IRA with a basis of $100,000. You only owe taxes on the $900,000 it has gone up. Now if you move the $900,000 to your 401K, you will still owe taxes on that money (at the ordinary income rate (not the capital gains rate) when you pull it out (RMD at 72). Your not paying any taxes now, just moving it from one tax deferred bucket to another tax deferred bucket. Then the original $100,000 contribution that you paid taxes on can go to a Roth account (since you already paid the taxes, just like a back door Roth IRA). My basis was on my last tax statement when I filed so it was really available. If you haven’t doing it then just plan on paying taxes on any withdraws because it will all be taxable at the going tax rate when you pull it out.
Lots of options when to pull out or convert to a Roth between 65 (or when ever) till 72. Clearly when you retire you could be in a lower tax bracket (not everyone is)
You have to look at pensions, dividends, rental house income, fixed income , Social Security, 4% withdraw rate, lots of moving parts. Plus congress monkey around with tax rates and back door rules, good luck.
Sounds like a lot work, maybe it is. I did mine last year and glad I did.
Jim(WCI) is correct on it all.
If you are making after-tax contributions to IRAs, you should be filing Form 8606 with your taxers each year. That is what keeps track of the basis. If you don’t have that form, it is assumed that there is no basis, and you will owe ordinary income tax rates on every dollar you withdraw or convert.
Hi Jim.
need some advise re: IRA. in 2020, my wife’s former employer closed their 401k account and sent us a check. So, in early jan 2021, I put $6k from her bank to TIRA and then backdoor to RIRA and then next day, I rolled that 401k money over into a VG TIRA.
I thought that when my wife goes to her new employer, i will roll the TIRA over into the new employer’s 401k.
however, due to multiple factors, my wife has been unemployed for the entire 2021.
Now, what can i do with that money, so that i can continue depositing $6k through backdoor RIRA for Tax yr 2022 ?
as of now, my wife isnt working for 2021 – no employment or business or anything at all, so apparently, no i-401k possible.
so if following the guide, i can do $6k Bank–> TIRA —> Backdoor RIRA. but because my wife’s TIRA already has approx $23k from the rollover, this 6k will be prorated. — did i get this right ?
so it seems like i have 3 options –
1 . convert to RIRA via backdoor, and , pay the pro rated tax on the conversion (which might be a lot of $$)
or
2. skip this backdoor roth for my wife for this year. however, i can still do it for my personal RIRA, right ?
or
3. is it possible that because my wife has $0 income this year, she can directly contribute to RIRA without going through backdoor ? or possibly convert the whole $23k from TIRA to RIRA ?
thanks in advance.
Your 2021 conversion is going to be pro-rated unless you convert the entire rollover IRA to a Roth IRA. You can’t skip it because you already did it and you can’t reverse it. You can still do yours no problem.
Pro-ration isn’t the end of the world. It’s possible you can isolate the basis down the road and get a free Roth conversion on the basis.
# 3 isn’t going to work. You’re doing her contribution based off your income anyway.
If it’s seriously just $23K, then convert the whole darn thing. You’ll owe like $10K in taxes. No biggie.
wow, that was not the answer i was hoping for !!!
$10k of extra taxes on a money i already paid taxes for seems like so not fair. here i am pinching pennies by skipping lattes and depositing $6k every year via backdoor and then i have to pay $10k in taxes additional……. ugh 2021, you suck.
so just to make sure i understand you correctly – you said, because my wife’s roth conversion was already performed for 2021 and then i rolled over my wife’s 401k into TIRA, i now have to empty out the TIRA by the year’s end to avoid the pro rata. since I dont see it happening anytime soon, as she doesnt have a job that will allow a 401k rollover, i have to pay taxes on the roth conversion.
i might be a little confused. whats the difference b/w these 2 options – 1. leave 23k in TIRA v/s 2. convert that 23k into RIRA ?
also can you explain the basis thing again please ?
Thanks Jim.
Wait, you already paid taxes on it? You won’t pay taxes again on anything you have paid taxes on already (your basis). Maybe I misunderstood what was going on.
If the money in the TIRA is after-tax money, you won’t owe any tax on converting it. If it is pre-tax money, you will owe your marginal tax rate x $23K on it.
If you leave the money in the TIRA and it is pre-tax money, you will be pro-rated on the conversion, so you will owe taxes on $6K * $23K/$29K* your marginal tax rate on it. If it is post-tax money, you won’t owe any taxes on the conversion at all (and should definitely convert it all).
sorry for the confusion Jim. It seems I misunderstood.
This is what I have currently. 2.5k in sep ira, old from 2017 (pre tax) , 23.5k(from rollover in jan 2021 ) in TIRA (pre tax) and 35.5k in RIRA (all backdoor-ed, including 6k for 2021 in jan 2021).
so i tried filling out 8606 and i think , line #1 is 6k and my basis (line#2) will be 2.5+23.5=26k, is that right ?
But then my line #6 is also 26k , line#8 is 6k and hence my line #10 is 1.000.
so am i doing anything wrong ?
also , can you please explain – i dont understand this – line #2 is my basis. but then it also says line#14 is my basis. so which one is it ? because it just throws everything into an infinite repeating loop.
You don’t have any basis. Basis is post-tax money, not pre-tax money. # 2 is your basis coming into the year, # 14 is your basis going out of the year.
First of all, merry Christmas Jim. And Thanks. this explains a lot and clears a lot of confusion.
so it turns out, because my basis is zero, but my line#6 is 26k, the decimal is 6/32 dfjand the pro rated amount becomes 4875 and i will owe taxes on it. Based on my marginal tax rate, it may be 30-35%, but thankfully not 10k.
Sorry about the long line of questioning. you have been an awesome help. hopefully i got it right this time ?
its just tough luck, i thought my wife would work and i would roll it over into the new employer’s 401k before 31 dec, but that didnt happen (thanks covid) and now i am stuck with this amount in TIRA.
hopefully 2022 will be better.
Yea, $10Kish is what you’d owe if you converted the entire $26K to Roth to avoid the pro-ration at all, which is what I’d do.
i was planning to keep that 23k in tira and roll it into my wife’s future employer’s 401k when she gets a job, hopefully in 2022. is that a smart move or a dumb move ? which one will save me tax – convert all now or roll over into 401k when i can ?
You’re weighing tax now vs tax later. If that was the plan, probably best to not have done any conversion at all this year. Since you’ve already done enough to get pro-rated, I’d probably convert it all now if you can afford the tax bill.
Hi Jim, seems like I never replied to your last comment. Sorry about that. So I am doing my taxes for 2021. The situation is still the same – $38k in roth and $24k in tira. I did not convert all the TIRA to roth by dec 31 2021. So I understand that now my 6k contributed in jan 2021 for the tax year 2021, will be prorated, at the rate we discussed above – amount contributed (6k) x basis (24k/30k) x my marginal tax rate. is that accurate ?
my question is, if I convert all my Tira to roth now, I will owe tax on the entire 24k i convert, right, which will be 24k x 24k/30k x marginal tax rate, right ? also , if i leave it as it is, can I roll it to my wife’s 401k plan , now that she is working ? it just gets so confusing, i would rather get over it and do it right now, to make it totally clean from this year. thanks.
Contributions don’t get pro-rated, conversions do. So if you did no conversion in 2021, there is no pro-ration. If you did do a $6K conversion in 2021, then it’ll be pro-rated. Easiest fix is converting the entire $24K tIRA to a Roth this year and paying any taxes due.
Did your wife have a traditional IRA of any kind before you put in the $6,000 (that was moved to a Roth?
What is your tax bracket? ( I figure it was high since you did the backdoor for your wife)
Choice #1 sounds good if you have the money to pay the tax. The $23K will now be in a Roth and you don’t have to worry about it later. Plus if your wife’s Traditional IRA is now at zero every year the back door will be easy.
Choice #2 What do you mean do a personal Roth IRA or do you mean back door Roth? (Tax bracket again, $208,000)
Choice #3 Are you married fling jointly, than $208,000 (for 2021, $214,000 in 2022) is the number whether you can do a Roth or have to do a back door Roth IRA.
Run all this by a Tax pro, no easy answers.
i have been doing the backdoor roth conversion for my wife every year since 2018, so yes she had trad and roth ira.
yes high tax bracket.
2. i wanted to clarify that i can still do my conversions for 2022, but the way jim answered it, its cleared that i need to worry about my wife’s 2021 tira first and then both me and wife shouldnt be facing any problems in 2022, if her TIRA balance is zero.
3. yes i understand.
Are we doing Backdoor Roth IRAs in 2022 or not?!?
Yes for now. I’d still get your conversion for 2021 done in calendar year 2021 and I’d do your 2022 as early in the year as possible, just in case.