By Dr. James M. Dahle, WCI Founder
This post was originally just a collection of random thoughts about private schools, a rant if you will. I was sure I would offend many of you who have your kids in private school. Instead of running just a big long rant, my assistant editor Jill said she wanted to turn it in to a Pro/Con post and she volunteered to write the Pro part. So my part will be the Con and hers will be the Pro. Just remember that I don't care what you do with your money as long as you can afford it. You want to blow it on travel, wakeboat gas, private school, or whatever, it's your choice so long as you can do it and still put 20% toward retirement. All right, here we go.
Cons of Private School – The White Coat Investor
Random Thought #1 – Private School Is a Big Rock
I often talk about the big rocks in your personal finances. This “big rock” phrase comes from the famous thought experiment where you try to fit a certain amount of rocks, gravel, and sand into a jar. If you start with the big rocks, everything fits in. If you start with the sand, there's no room for the gravel, much less the big rocks. The point is to pay attention to the big rocks first. This is in opposition to the Latte Factor as made famous by Bach, i.e. the idea that if you just stop buying lattes you'll be rich eventually. I would advocate that it is far easier to just pay attention to the big rocks and then you can have all the lattes you want. Since we all only have a limited amount of willpower to tell ourselves “no,” it is far better to use that limited willpower on the big rocks in our financial lives.
So what are the big rocks in your budget? Housing and transportation certainly qualify. So do vacations and state income taxes. But guess what else belongs in there? That's right, private school. I mean look at what it costs. In my area, it's about $10K per year per kid, and I'm told that is really cheap compared to places like the Bay Area and D.C. where it might be $30K per year per kid. But whether you have 6 kids in Utah or 2 kids in California, $60K a year in tuition is a huge rock. $60K a year invested at 5% real for 13 years is over a million dollars, $2.4M if you let it continue to compound for another 17 years at that rate. According to surveys of physicians in their 60s, about 57% have a net worth of less than $2 Million.
Shop carefully for the big rocks.
Random Thought #2 – Private School Affects Public Schools
Okay, here's where our bias comes in. Our kids are all in public schools. We went to public schools. We volunteer in public schools. My wife worked in public schools. Her mother worked in public schools. Her grandparents worked in public schools (and her grandfather was a superintendent). Nobody in my family has EVER gone to a private high school. We live in an area with excellent public schools. We are big supporters of public schools. In fact, with this most recent election, the only sign we had in our yard was a pro-school bond sign.
That said, one of the big beefs I have with private schools is their tendency to siphon off resources that could go toward the public school system. No matter what you believe, it is pretty hard to argue that public schools are not providing a societal good that benefits all of us. A better-educated citizenry improves the economy, society, and government for all of us.
When the children of the educated, wealthy, and/or moral are removed from public schools in order to get a “better” education, that leaves those in the public schools worse off. Kids learn not only from their teachers but also from their peers. That goes for scholastic and non-scholastic subjects. Private schools may also siphon off the most talented and dedicated teachers, although I suppose I have no data to support that. Parents that are likely to put their kids in private schools are also those most likely to be very supportive of the school—i.e., volunteer time, donate extra money, ensure their kids are on top of their school work and behavior, etc. Removing those kids and their parents from the public school system decreases the societal benefit of the public school system for all of us. Don't get me wrong, private school attending families are paying the same property taxes as everyone else, but there's a lot more to support than just paying your taxes.
Random Thought #3 – Financially, It's Usually Better to Move
I get this question a lot. A family feels like they live in an area where the public schools are lousy and they are trying to decide whether to move to a more expensive area and put their kids in public schools or stay where they're at and pay for private school tuition. The right answer is usually to move, whether it is just down the street or to another state. The reason boils down to basic math.
When you pay private school tuition, that money is gone. When you buy a more expensive house, the value of the house is likely to keep up with inflation and then come back to you eventually. Plus, the cost of the house is a one-time expense rather than a recurring one.
Consider this scenario: You can live in a $400K house with crummy schools and pay $40K a year in private school tuition or you can live in an $800K house with great public schools. Over the course of 13 years, you will have paid $40K * 13 = $520,000 in tuition. That money is just gone. If you had spent the extra $400K, and the house appreciated at 3%, you'd be $187K ahead, instead of $520K behind, a difference of $700K. Now, you have to reduce that by the additional property taxes. Perhaps that's $5K–$10K a year. And most people aren't paying cash for their house, so there would be some additional interest costs and maybe some additional maintenance costs. Perhaps $10K–$20K a year. And the realtor fees would be higher. But the fact remains that all that added up isn't going to come close to $700K. You've got to really love your job and the area you live to give up an extra $700K for it.
Random Thought #4 – Benefits Are Typically Oversold
We know lots of people who put their kids in private school for various reasons. I haven't been particularly impressed that their kids are smarter or more well-rounded or more likely to succeed or more moral than those attending good public schools. Nor have I seen any data that supports that contention. You may feel differently, of course, but it seems to me that a great deal of the “private school benefit” is a status symbol. I also think a lot of people hear that the public schools are “bad” but never actually get involved or really investigate whether that is really true. I mean, sure, if your public schools really are terrible or unsafe, then I can't blame you for using your discretionary income on a luxury like private school. But at least go find out if they really are terrible—don't just take your neighbor's word for it.
Random Thought #5 – Cost Matters, Even with Education
On a related note, I am amazed how our cost blinders go on as soon as we start talking about education. I usually discuss this with regards to a college education, but it applies just as much to a grade or high school education. The value proposition is particularly acute when the alternative is completely free (at least of an additional cost beyond the required property taxes).
Go down the US News and World Report college rank list some time. You'll see colleges that are ranked the same for their academic merits but have 4–8 times the cost of tuition. Your children need significant guidance to make a wise college choice. They shouldn't be choosing a college because they think the buildings are pretty or their friend from high school is going there. It's a value proposition. What is the price and how good is the education. Sure, the education might be a little better at one college than another, but it likely isn't 8 times as good.
The same rules apply to grade school and high school. Just because the class size might be 20% smaller doesn't mean the education is 20% better. How much is it worth to have your kids learn geometry from someone who shares your religion? Is a 20 point higher average SAT really worth $100K in tuition? Those are the questions to ask yourself. It isn't just about “what's better.” It's also a value proposition.
I mean, don't you think it's amazing to see parents paying private school tuition for their kids when they haven't even finished paying for their own education yet? What message are you sending to your kids with that sort of behavior? That living your whole life in debt is normal? Is that really your intent?
We need to get out of this mindset that “I'd do anything for my kids” when “anything” includes stuff that makes no financial sense at all. Why don't you give them a choice? They can either attend private schools or you can give them $700K in today's money when they turn 40. The right answer for most kids is going to be “take the money.”
Now you have to know your kids too; some kids need services and experiences only available from a private institution. And we all have discretionary income we can spend any way we like. So if you want to spend your money on private schools, knock yourself out. But do your finances a favor and at least consider the financial implications of your choice before making it.
By Jill Gygi, Former WCI Assistant Editor
If Excellent Education Is a Priority, Make the Necessary Sacrifices
Over the past 20 years we’ve tried it all! We’ve homeschooled our kids, had them in private school, neighborhood public schools as well as charter schools, all in an effort to provide them the best education for their different needs. Jim and I are neighbors and we live in one of the top school districts in the State of Utah, but still, the schools have often come up short and I have felt compelled at times to seek better educational opportunities for my children.
If Jim had just left this post about private school being a big rock and that you should be very careful about choosing that big rock, I would have edited the post, published it, and left it at that! But, after reading his other thoughts on education I felt that I really needed to address his five main points.
First day of Kindergarten for Jill's youngest.
Pros of Private School – Jill
#1 Private School Is a Big Rock
I couldn’t agree more. The years we had one of our kids in private school, we were keenly aware of the big rock that it was, and we made significant cuts in other areas of our budget to allow it to make sense financially.
My husband and I chose private school for a time because our local public school couldn't meet our daughter's needs. She was reading and doing math well above her grade level. Public schools, no matter how good they are, have limited options for teaching a child that doesn't conform. The best they could offer my daughter was to give her extra worksheets for home. They expected her to play along nicely sounding out P-A-T even though she was reading Chronicles of Narnia at home. They also expected her to be patient as others learned to identify numbers while she was experimenting with multiplication at home. How could I sentence her to an education far less than her capabilities? To do so would be a waste of her mind.
When we didn't have the income to justify private school, I homeschooled two of my boys for about four years. Now, THAT was a sacrifice and a labor of love. A teacher at our top-rated elementary school told me that my son was so different from the rest of the class that she didn’t have a way to teach him effectively. What is a parent to do in that kind of situation? Well, I wasn't just going to leave him there with little being taught. I bought a curriculum for a few hundred dollars that met his needs and I taught him myself! Every bit of sacrifice of my time and money was worth seeing my kids work to rise to their potential.
#2 Private Schools Affect Public Schools
I know Jim is well-meaning in his defense of public schools but if a public school isn't giving a child the best learning opportunities, should that child be sacrificed to the “public good?” Just because Jim is biased toward government education doesn’t inherently make it the moral “good” or the right fit for every kid in America—rich or poor.
It's not that I'm against government-run schools. I believe they are a public good and the right fit for many situations. What I’m against is people resenting, compelling, shaming, or legislating against others who choose an alternative. Physicians don’t seem to like it when well-meaning people say that they owe a debt to society for putting them through medical school. I don’t like it when people say that my debt to society is to sacrifice my children's education to systems that may not be working for a child.
#3 Financially, It Is Better to Move
Jim suggests that private schools “siphon off ” bright kids and families that are needed in the public schools and that those families basically have a moral responsibility to stay in the government system. However, his next argument is that it is a smart financial decision to buy your way out of a crummy school by purchasing an expensive home in a great school district. Using his logic, wouldn't then those “great public schools” be themselves, “siphoning off” the brightest kids and families from the crummy public schools that need them most? Wouldn't the greatest moral good be to move INTO a poorly performing public school? Of course not! That would be absurd.
Like Jim, I think moving into a great school district to better your children's educational situation is a perfectly viable option for a family. Likewise, opting out of the government system is just as viable an option and no less moral of a decision.
#4 Benefits Are Typically Oversold
Jim hasn't been overly impressed with kids who've attended private schools. My experiences have been different. We've found the benefits of our educational choices to be outstanding. At the private school our daughter attended, she was taught a rigorous curriculum. She, along with every student, was assigned to breakout learning groups that matched her academic level. Students were taught how to think on their own, to question assumptions, and to take individual responsibility.
At the charter school my daughter currently attends, the children are the most polite I’ve ever been around. They open doors for parents and each other; they say, “Yes ma'am,” or “No, sir”; they are exceptionally kind to each other. They act like this because it's part of the curriculum and expected. They are challenged each day in small learning groups that are ability-based allowing each student to learn at the level that best suits them. Expectations are high. I believe these kids act in a way that is noticeably different.
My daughter won a lottery position to attend this charter school and we were able to transfer her from the private school. Hey, I'm not stupid; there's no reason to keep paying for private school when the charter accomplishes my main goals. If you aren't seeing a significant difference between private school education and what you can find at the public schools, then absolutely stop wasting your money.
#5 Cost Matters
Some of you are parents or grandparents that have “Enough” or “Beyond Enough.” If that is the case, why not look at private schooling if it could give the children you care about “more.” If you aren't in that position of Enough yet, but feel the acute need that your child needs “more,” then you still have options! You can move into a better performing school district, find special programs within the public schools that can better meet your kid's needs, you can homeschool, find a charter school, or sacrifice like crazy to afford a great private school. All are viable options for helping a child reach their potential—all without feeling any guilt (as long as you save that 20% for retirement!).
What do you think? What does private high school in your area cost? What financial sacrifices have you made to put your kids in private school? Do you think it's worth the cost? Why or why not? Have you considered moving to a better school district? Do you think families have a moral obligation to keep their children in the public schools? Comment below!
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[This updated post was originally published in 2018.]
Man, this comment section is going to crash your site, I bet.
I agree with both of you to some extent. I am married to a public school educator and have three kids. These decisions can be really tough. They have both personal and societal impacts.
In the end – as a parent – it is a value proposition decision in my mind. I completely agree with both of you that if the value isn’t truly there, private school is a giant rock that will sink you fast if you aren’t being smart in the other big three (house, cars, and food). That said, if the public school will not serve your child’s needs I see no need to “sacrifice the child” as Jill pointed out.
From a societal stand point, what you are both saying is true – and controversial in a way that you may not realize. Because of the way school districts are drawn (and redrawn), many affluent kids are taken out of public schools that need the money regardless of what you think about private/public education. In the south -where my family lives – this has led to a re-segregation of schools that isn’t good for anyone. With the generational poverty that exists, lines are drawn for election purposes that results in public schools that are overly affluent and white being separated from impoverished communities that are more diverse. This essentially leads to free-private schools as long as your kid lives in a certain area. Look at your city map and I bet you find the one highway that if someone lives north/south/east/west of the poverty rate sky-rockets. Go look at those schools and tell me they are the same as the ones in the affluent parts on the opposite sides of town.
The argument about “just moving” makes this problem worse. It’s better for the individual family, but not better for society. So, in some ways, I feel like WCI’s non-personal finance side of his argument is self-defeating. Yes, you can just move, but it is going to hurt our society when all of the wealthy, high-income earners “just move” because they can; while the impoverished more diverse community (let’s be real: poverty disproportionately impacts our minority friends/family) get “left behind.” If the societal impact is really what you care about, then this must be addressed. Otherwise, it’s more of a theoretical concern than an actual one.
Given my family’s beliefs and my wife being an educator, we see this every day.
TPP
I’ve also been wondering lately when you sleep…?!?
9:30 to 4:30 every night! Eaterm time zone makes my post times look super early 🙂
Everyone I know went to public school and I have never understood private school value. I have friends who teach at good private schools who went to public and they agree. We have been really happy with public schools for ourselves and kids.
10k a year also sounds like a bargain. Private schools are 50-60k per child per year here and if you don’t start in kindergarten in many of them your child is unlikely to ever be admitted off the wait list.
For context, both my wife and I went to public schools for our entire pre-college educations in big metro areas.
The public vs private decision often boils down to what others at your income level in your town are doing. In most medium and large metro areas, there will be at least one wealthy suburb which has the highest home prices, along with the best public schools. If you live in these areas, I think it is a no-brainer to send your kids to public school.
However, in many small towns, all of the physicians send their kids to private schools instead of the local public school. In this scenario, there is a material educational difference between private and public schools. Because real estate in these areas are often significantly lower than large metro areas (which also lowers the property tax base for the public schools), the physicians can afford to send their kids to private school. The small towns often pay physicians more than the average doctor, and the physicians are often the highest paid people in these communities, unlike in New York or San Francisco, where some doctors may feel like they only have an “average” income.
As in athletics, to be the best you have to train with the best. If all of the smart students with wealthy parents in your small town are going to private school, your child will benefit from going to that same private school, and you’ll probably be able to afford it.
Looking forward to reading other physicians’ thoughts on this important, controversial topic.
-WSP
Controversial is right. 84 comments already and none of them mine.
I grew up a town of around 70,000 people in Canada , where there were no private schools. Although interestingly, there was one public high school which was more ghetto, downtown and “Greaser”, while the other one that was zoned somewhat to the more affluent west neighborhoods. I can’t imagine how discrepant public versus private schools might be bigger metropolises, or in the United States for example. However, to the effect that to be the best, you have to train with the best, I think there is much to be said about being surrounded by a well represented demographic, and to grow up with different kinds of people, learning from all these different viewpoints from different social stratas, while having strong family and parental support to guide a child along the way with in the current educational system. For example, when it “show and tell your parents day”, we had a policeman, restaurant waiter, a nurse, etc – not just doctors and lawyers. I saw how a classmate who had congenital hydrocephalus and mental retardation get bullied because he was different, and to this day I think of my place in that classmate’s life. I think this is very much a part of a child’s education in addition to the “academics.” A lack of this exposure may be part of the reason why society is becoming so polarized, and as physicians treating patients from all spectrums of the population, I can only see this knowledge and understanding as being beneficial.
I am of strong belief that it is the parents will make the biggest impact in a child’s success in life. For me, I would prefer to work less and be play a bigger role in my children’s education rather than paying the extra for private school. But in cases where that might not be an option, and if the public schools were truly deplorable, I’d have a tough time with this decision too!
I observe many physicians sending their kids to the local private school who are not funding their retirements. The local private school tuition is more than the State University.
That’s exactly my point of view.
I have chosen the private school option for my daughter because the school I put her in consistently is ranked near the top in my state and the local public chool she would have been going to has come in below the median (I live in a rural area).
I do like your advice Jim about if had a choice of picking a more expensive home in a better school district that in the long run it would be worth it. Unfortunately that situation was not applicable to me as there is no way I can find an equivalen property I have (bought it because I have 2 natural waterfalls about 200 ft from the back of my house (50 ft and 8 ft) in a better school district (have to play to the whims of mother nature).
So my choice would be to move to a better public school district and buy a likely more expensive home than the one I bought and live in the city (not my cup of tea) or pay tuition for private school.
For me it was a no brainer and luckily by the time private school had started (grade 6 here) I could easily cash flow it with just my passive income (which is actually more than 2x private tuition). I get your point that yes if Iinvested this money instead I could have even made more, but there is a point where you say you have enough (or will have enough by the time I FIRE)
I do not believe in your argument of for the benefit of society one should put a student in public school regardless. I went through the system both ways growing up. I was way ahead of my class (grew up in Lousiana which is not known for great schools) and even was offered to skip 2 grades because of it (my dad didn’t want me to because he wanted me to be with my same age friends). I learned bad habits (I never studied at all (didn’t do anything except required homework and took tests without reviewing anything) and made straight As. Was valedictorian of 8th grade still. When my dad passed away, my mom moved to California and put me in a high ranking private school and for the first time I was with kids with similar brainpower and dropped from #1 to probably 20 or so in a class of 120. It was an eye opener and prepared me for college and med school because I finally had to compete. My daughters class size is 24 and they split it into groups of 12 which really also gives individual attention (far less easy to goof off if you are 1 of 12).
Private school is a big rock but if in the grand scheme of things it allows you to prepare for college better I think it is worth it (this private school is like a mini college with campus etc.)
I do appreciate that you think that learning geometry next to someone from your religion is not important and I agree with you. But as an Orthodox Jew, there is more to private orthodox Jewish school. For us, it gives you the religious education that you can’t replicate in an after school problem. Socially too, the kids are going to school with others who follow the same religious laws. If they were at public school, they would miss out on parties on Saturdays and would not be able to go out to eat with the other kids who don’t keep kosher. Therefore most of us sacrifice to put our kids in these specific private schools. However, it is a huge rock and is very tough, but it is unavoidable in a way.
Even for those of us Jews who are not orthodox but live in places with few Jews, these are strong arguments to make for Jewish day school (although the costs are pretty high). I assume Dr Dahle sends his children to public schools where they share the majority religion/identity of Utah. It feels quite different when you are the only one of a particular religion in your class and your religious identity is not yet formed.
Yes for my kids, no for me. I was often the only one of a particular religion in my classes/teams/groups of friends. Didn’t matter; my parents couldn’t have afforded to send us to a private school if they had wanted to. It simply wasn’t an option, like for most of the folks I grew up with.
Glad to see other Orthodox Jews here. For us, and pretty much everyone in our community regardless of income, private schools for our kids is non-negotiable. It is an essential part of educating our children in our faith and like Josh mentioned, there is no other way to replicate the dual curriculum and extensive Jewish studies that a private religious school provides. (Along with a myriad of other lifestyle benefits, such as vacations during our holidays, a cafeteria that accommodates our dietary restrictions etc.) Almost every Orthodox Jew I know sends their kids to private schools, which depending on where you live ranges from $10-25k a year per child. This includes people who make $20,000 a year all the way to the millionaires. The schools give breaks to the lower income households (heavily fundraising to cover the costs) and the truly rich are able to afford it. It is the middle/upper classes that get really stuck under this “big rock” as we are expected to pay the full amount for all kids (and we have pretty large families). I’d love to see more doctor budgets that include private school as a non-negotiable, because that’s the reality for us.
It’s like any budget- you put in the big rocks first and then when you run out of money, you quit putting rocks in the jar. Most doc families can have anything they want, but not everything. Want to put a few kids in $25K/year school? That’s probably fine. You just can’t live in a McMansion, vacation in Europe, drive his and her Teslas, and retire at 55 too.
This is old but I’ll comment. Have three kids in 22k per kid private. Swore I’d never do it until Covid happened. Guess what I realized then? Private school isn’t just about surface outcome (college admitted to, future salary, etc)…it’s about peace of mind. My kids getting a quality education in a solid and supportive tight-nit community is worth it to me, regardless of “monetary outcome.” If you’re obsessed with choices as just a “return on investment” calculus, then you know what matters most? Marrying another high income individual. But I doubt WCI would state that. Sometimes life is about more than just “return on investment.” But it often takes the kids of the petty bourgeoisie to realize this. (Says daughter of dual FSA actuaries).
While I’m not Jewish, I think this is an outstanding point that can apply to anyone has a minority religious viewpoint in their particular community. Even though religion is supposed to be kept out of public schools, it is always going to be an indirect issue and, in some cases, a direct issue. Josh comments to indirect exclusion, but it can be much worse in some parts of the country. Some schools where I live would be considered downright evangelical elsewhere. I attended a local public school graduation last year and the amount of Christian prayer was staggering. One of the things I value about my son’s private school is that he has the opportunity to mingle with Muslims, Hindus, and Jews. The demographics of public vs. private are quite different in the rural South where many of the “rich” doctors are immigrants.
I agree. I think those arguing that private schools are more white or more diverse are both right, for their particular areas. In our area the church schools are predominantly white or black depending on the color of the church. (Sunday at 11 a. M. In the South: the most segregated hour of all.) Many of the white church schools started out as Jim Crow academies when Public Schools were forcibly integrated. The black church schools, and I don’t know of too many because black churches have a lot less money here, probably are like Charter Schools opened to help parents get their kids out of bad Public Schools.
Whereas our actual distinguished private Academy, though started as a Jim Crow Academy, is not Church affiliated. And now it is no longer segregated or racist, so as Arthur notes the many foreign doctors in town send their kids there making it the most International School in town. And the rich parents of the other students are not afraid of the non rich and/or non-white scholarship kids, who have distinguished themselves academically or athletically and are not going to be problems students.
And religion? A friend with two outspoken atheist kids has moved to escape our public school, and the experience of atheist kids of which I know there indicates they are less accepted and tolerated than the out gay children. And it isn’t just the other students, it comes from the teachers as well. In addition to the illegal but tolerated permission of churches coming in and indoctrinating kids or giving away their particular tracts though generally just a new testament. And every football game where a Christian football player coach or even Pastor thanks Jesus and at least now asks for safety rather than victory of their team over the other, I always fantasize about how all these families would feel if they were the 10% minority and Allah was invoked over the game.
Curious- do you expect to have your kids work in entirely Orthodox offices? They won’t be able to go out to lunch with their colleagues there, either.
Of course they won’t work in an all orthodox office. But the need to fit in and social interactions as a child are way more important than as an adult. If my child is the only one not going to a Saturday birthday party then he will feel left out and be upset. The other kids may or may not judge him but he will certainly be very upset and make social gatherings more difficult. Fitting in and being like others as a child and teen is way more important socially and developmentally than as an adult.
In addition, the children learn core religious values and beliefs at these private schools. They learn why we do certain things differently and it helps them navigate the world while still being comfortable and maintaining core religious values. Therefore when they are “left out” as adults, they don’t feel bad necessarily but they understand why they are different than others. Modern Orthodox Jews combine secular and religious values and do not have trouble in the workplace. They embrace the diversity of the world while understanding who they are and where they came from. Unfortunately this cannot be replicated in public school or even after school teaching. Therefore we make it a priority.
I understand you might disagree and that’s ok. Just trying to help you understand where we come from.
We have sent two of our kids to private schools and two to public. We feel that it’s been a plus to send each to a setting that best meets their individual needs.
There is no one right answer, and parents should not feel badly if they don’t use the government school system for whatever reason – be those political, philosophical, religious or just conscientious objection!
Dr. Dahle, I did not see you mention that whether we send our children there or not, we are all supporting the government schools with our taxes. In fact, one could make the argument that parents who send their kids to private schools are saving the local government lots of money!
I do want to commend Jill for her excellent writing! I think you should do future guest posts…
You should double check the situation where you live (as this is highly variable by geography). Where I live schools are funded partially off of how many students attend the school. Every student who withdraws from the public school (goes private or charter) results in less money being directed to the public schools.
Your region may be different, but in mine people who withdraw from public schools are causing less money to be directed to public schools (while paying the same taxes [and sometimes less depending on how they finagle their taxes and their tuition…]).
As a new father, I don’t have much experience. I take the philosophy of when people ask me “Don’t you want the best for your child?” to take the counterpoint “No, I want the best out of my child”. I am a big believer in public schools, not just for education but for being able to interact with a diverse population.
Getting a word in here before the comments section explodes…
My wife and I are very religious. Specifically, we are members of the churches of Christ. One of the core beliefs in these churches is that they are all autonomous without any central organization (which means no pooling of resources among congregations for things life benevolence, schools, etc.). However, there is a private school in our area (Tampa) associated run by members of the churches of Christ — completely independent from any financial relationship/organization with the churches themselves. It is an extremely rare set-up; in fact, it’s the largest factor in why we chose to move here for my first attending job.
It absolutely is a Big Rock, and I am fully aware that it is a horrible financial decision. It pains me to essentially buy a decent car every single year and drive it off a cliff to send my 3 kids to private school. However, life is all about priorities, and raising our children to respect God and serve others is priority #1. One could certainly argue that it is my responsibility (and my wife’s) to do this and not a school’s — and it is — but if surrounding my children around positive spiritual influences 24/7 is beneficial to them, I’m going to go for that. Fortunately, this school is relatively “cheap” compared to most private schools (just under 20k per year for all 3). But it’s a lot more expensive than free!
I’m still saving between 20-25% of my income by maxing out a 403b, 457, HSA, and 2 backdoor IRAs, so long-term we will have “enough” and this issue doesn’t affect retirement. The main area that it is killing us financially is by dramatically slowing down how quickly we can eliminate our debt. I don’t like that aspect of it, but again: priorities.
For the record, my wife and I both went to public schools our entire lives (including state schools for undergrad and medical & dental school). I had a great experience, and actually met my wife via public school — we were high school sweethearts in our small town. It’s only because of this unique opportunity in our area that we choose to send our kids to private school (something I always said I would never do… until we did).
First, I have been reading this blog since the first year it started and this ranks near the top in most disappointing posts. I come here for financial posts, not personal rants about non financial topics. I agree with Jill that this post should have remained about how private school is a big rock and finances need to be considered carefully when deciding schooling options.
Second, I have read many times on here about how Dr. Dahle values experiences over things. Personally, I do send my kids to private school. I also save enough to retire very comfortably in my early 50s. My wife and I drive older cars and do not own a boat despite living near water so our kids can have the experience of going to a private school they have thrived in. I could not with a good conscience buy a new fancy car and boat at the expense of providing the educational experience to my kids provided by the private school they attend. You do not have to agree with this choice, but it is a personal choice my wife and I made which has nothing to do with our financial security in the future.
This is your blog so do as you like, but I would like to ask to please keep future posts in line with the mission of this webpage, which as I understand is to help financially educate doctors. Or risk losing a long time reader.
It is easy to just discusss the math of making decisions but it’d be naive to say it’s JUST about the numbers. Many “big rock” financial decisions are tied to emotions and beliefs. So not sure why a discussion of things that can shape your big rock decision isn’t a valid topic here. My 2 cents.
I have to agree with Miss Bonnie; Jim and Jill both brought up some controversial points in their respective arguments, but I appreciate their candor and their respect of other’s opinions and choices. He is not indicting anyone, just providing us a place to have these tough discussions that no one wants to have in person, at work or otherwise! I appreciate that, and thank him for stimulating discussion fodder.
You should have seen how controversial those opinions were before we edited each others’ parts of the post. There would have been twice the comments!
The mission of the website is to educate doctors and other high income people so they don’t get taken for a ride financially. I’m “other high income people” and for reference, I make as much or more than anyone I’ve ever seen posting here (who self-declare their snack bracket for whatever reason that seems relevant in posts or the forum).
I’ve been able to easily afford private schools for the last 20+ years, when I was so inclined.
I’ve had both kids in and out of private at different times. Sent them away for ultra-expensive private school years in other countries, and am now supporting them in public universities. You have to match the perceived needs with the facts. The fact is many of you CANNOT afford private school and Jim made it clear what the factors should be in your decision matrix.
I reference this myself because it’s always useful to have actual context. IMO, this was a fantastic post that fully explored the nuances of what for many of you is a TRULY big rock decision that could change your financial lives. To not explore all aspects of it would be ridiculous. Well done Jim!
I am also a high income physician that this webpage is directed to and can easily afford the private school my kids attend. However, I do not make enough to save enough for an early retirement and do everything I else want so I have to make choices. So this is a very important topic to me. Most readers may find this post interesting, but I find it misses the mark for a financial blog. As Jill stated, I would also have zero issue with the column if it was only about the financial aspects of the decision. However, I really do not find placing non financial views on education in line with the mission of this blog and I do not come to this blog to read personal opinions on public school education that obviously differ than mine.
I think that there is a financial decision being made here: whether or not to send your kids to private school. Dr. Dahle is simply giving views and opinions that factor into this decision. They are quite valid for every reader. However, YOU get to decide if you agree or not. If you don’t, fine. You just have different priorities – and that’s OK!
But why get all upset about it? These are simply pros and cons to a financial decision. I think it hits the mark perfectly. I don’t agree with him, but he still makes fine points to think about. I send my kids to private school. I just have different priorities than Dr. Dahle. But I’m far from offended here.
Ditto. Addressing the reasons we want private or public school and why we should consider the benefits of the alternative warrant the expression of the noneconomic considerations of both the authors here. No use saying only ‘the dollar cost of X is much more than the dollar cost of Y’ when the obvious response from most of us would be that the noneconomic value of X and Y are vastly different.
I am actually not offended or upset in the least bit. Good points or not, I do not come to a financial blog to read personal opinions on education and how to raise my kids. That is all.
Despite sending my son to private school for many of the reasons listed by Jill and others, I have gotten a lot of guidance on how to raise him from Jim’s posts about his own parental challenges as well as Whitney’s posts offering a child’s perspective. From the robust commentary above and below, there are clearly a lot of people who visit the blog for this type of discussion.
Well, you seem upset about it when you threaten to not visit the site again. Maybe I’m misinterpreting.
You may not come to a financial blog for information on how to educate or raise your kids, but you shouldn’t be surprised about it either. Kids are a big expense item! How you raise them and what school they go to has everything to do with a family’s financial situation.
Good lord, if you don’t come to this blog for that info, just skip over the article! No one is twisting your arm to read all this FREE information.
You’ll be offended when the deer wakes up in the backseat I bet.
Nice reference! It really did take me a shade under a decade to finish school… actually more with training.
The amount of comments on here from individuals that are personally offended by Dr Dahle’s opinions is, while certainly the norm these days, almost comical. You may not have came here to read Dr Dahle’s thoughts on private versus public schools, but as TommyBoy said, no one is twisting your arm to read anything you find disagreeable.
I would try to not let your own biases poison the proverbial well. Too often, myself included, we as humans discredit opinions solely because they are not our own when we truly should be digesting the information thoughtfully. And yes, we often arise at the same preconceived side of the argument, but only before taking both stances in quiet contemplation.
I myself went to public schools all the way through and ranked in the top 3 in my medical school class amongst classmates that went to private school from day one. A little known fact is that the information in textbooks is the same at Harvard as it is at a state university. I know this post was primarily about pre-collegiate education, but you understand my point. Your education is what you make it.
Nonetheless, in more rural areas where resources in public schools are limited and your child exhibits a heightened academic potential, private schools may thus be a more viable option. But when there is a hefty price tag attached to an education that may not necessarily be superior, the financial implications should be heavily weighed, as Dr Dahle and his editor have discussed.
I see this very differently, it is a very large financial decision that must take into consideration many non-financial attributes. I really doubt you find the blog to be as valuable as I do if you would abandon it over a few posts you think inappropriate, just skip them if you find them not valuable.
Kind of like how big of a house you buy and what town you live in- very personal decisions, but with serious financial ramifications.
I am super happy that this made your short list of terrible posts. I can think of a few dozen I’d put way ahead of this one on the non-financial/sucky post list.
At any rate, like anything else on the internet, take what you find useful and leave the rest. If you agreed with everything I ever wrote or even chose to wrote about, this would be a cult not a blog. Even my own assistant editor didn’t agree with me!
However, I disagree with your assertion that this isn’t a financial topic. At $50K/year/kid, this is an awfully important financial topic in the lives of many physicians and other high income earners.
As a parent of two toddlers trying to make this decision, I found this post extremely helpful. Thank you both for providing both sides of the argument.
Bummer. We’ll try harder to offend you next time. 🙂
I went to public school, my wife went to public school, my mom, my in laws, (my mother in law taught in public school)… We were all very smug about it and would have agreed with you until my kindergartner had another kid sticking his hands in his pants / touching inappropriately on the bus (while I was deployed no less). Public school responded by…well nothing. So, we pulled our kids to private school to get him out of the situation. Not any better education, but the cost was much lower than described above $6k/kid/year) which was worth it to us relative to the hassle of an extra move.
Probably back to public school at our next duty station in a year or two, but worth it for us for now.
Ugh….that is the worst reason I’ve ever heard to go to a private school…and also the best reason.
I was surprised neither you nor Jill commented on discipline as a factor. It can vary widely in both public and private schools. Where we live, the discipline in public schools is pretty nonexistent. When a parent complains that her kindergarten comes home with bruises inflicted on the playground, the response from our local public school, in a diverse urban area, is that it is a “cultural thing” and her son is going to have to figure out how to handle it.
This type of attitude is unfair to all the kids in the school. The kids who are the victims don’t get a safe learning environment. The kids who are the perpetrators don’t get the structure and discipline they need to be successful in life.
I totally get that by sending my kids to private school the public schools are deprived of having the benefit of the value my family could bring to the public schools and I think that is unfortunate. But, our local public schools have made it pretty clear that they aren’t interested in providing the educational environment we want for our children.
I think what we’re learning from this comments section is that the differences from one public school to another and from one private school to another are probably as big or even bigger than the differences between the average public school and the average private school, so generalizations are very difficult to make. I mean, look how different everyone’s experiences seem to be? I mean, discipline problems at our local public elementary school? I don’t think I’ve heard of a single fight in the 7 years our kids have been going there. There were a lot more than that when I was a kid.
It’s been interesting reading the wide range of viewpoints from a relatively narrow audience profile.
This entire thread of comments is the parable of the blind men and the elephant: https://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/blind-men-and-the-elephant.htm
How many US high schools are there? Across the United States there are 26,407 public secondary schools and 10,693 private secondary schools. ( Digest of Education Statistics, 2001, Table 89).
How many public elementary schools in the US? Elementary, or primary education, customarily refers to the first six years of formal education received in schools in the United States. According to the National Center for Educational Statistics, there were about 90,000 elementary schools operating in the United States between 2013 and 2014; both private and public.
Sort of like your commentary about intra-specialty salary variance being as or more important than inter-specialty salary variance. In contrast to Mom’s experience with public school discipline, corporal punishment is still legal — and used— where I live (about 20,000 instances of paddling occur in Alabama public schools each year).
Public school for us. Despite living in a rural area, I have no desire to send my kid(s) to a private school. Having grown up through public schools in a very rural/blue collar area, I actually would rather not send my kids with other “rich kids.” It won’t be easy to hide that we make more in this rural area, but I want them well adjusted to people of all backgrounds and as long as the school is satisfactory at education/college prep – I think the social aspect of public education is equally important. That’s something no one else has really mentioned yet.
We watched a half dozen top 10 students graduate from the local high school and then struggle in college. These were good hard-working kids whose parents supported them. And they struggled.
And how much are we to ‘support’ our kids education? They go to school all day, and then come home and go to school at home all afternoon to fill in the gaps?
For us to move to the ‘good’ school district would change our home price from $350,000 to $1,000,000 in exchange for a smaller home on a smaller lot and it would be more than our current 5 minute walk to the park and 10 minute walk to church and my office and the hospital would be more than 1 mile away.
So going to the good public school would increase our home cost, give us a smaller home, increase my commute, decrease our free exercise, and still remove my kids from the local public school thus negating the public good argument. Actually by not going, the public school gets my tax dollars to spread among the other students.
Thanks to everyone this morning for your thoughtful comments on this topic! Dr. Dahle is guiding a group of scouts through a slot canyon today and so we won’t hear from him until he’s back in town.
–Jill
What interests me most in this post is the asymetrical way the co-authors refer to each other: first name ‘Jill’ vs. last name +title ‘Dr. Dahle’. Why is that?
You’ll have to ask Jill; I would guess she was just trying to be respectful. I could call her “Mrs. …..” but I didn’t want to reveal her last name. I usually call her Jill. She usually calls me Jim, as noted in the comments. Guess I should have caught that in the editing process. I’ll change it now.
Well Done, Jill!
I think one of the most significant factors in the decision of “private vs. public” is your location. As Xrayvsn noted…public school in some areas (parts of the South) lags significantly. I personally attended public school (West Texas), but when I was located in Mississippi, found that sending my son to private school dramatically elevated the level of education.
(I’m currently fighting fires in Utah, and I can tell you that rural Utah is significantly different than rural MS or rural GA in how the “average” person interacts with you. That “difference” is also the difference in the public schools in those areas as well.)
I like the discussion. It’s absolutely pertinent to personal finance for physicians…..because it’s a “big rock”. Good job with presenting both sides well.
I’ve been having this debate a lot recently with other parents, as I’m in several mom groups on FB, and most of us have children just getting to school age. Many of the moms are public school teachers and are no longer happy with the public school system. The overall complaints that I’m seeing is with the problems that do exist in the public education system. There has been a lot of debate lately from people on all sides of the political spectrum about how the general model has not changed greatly over the years, and as our economy transitions from manufacturing/middle management to tech/service/innovation/marketing, we are not changing the ways in which we educate children. Our model for education is still based upon a factory setting of having kids sitting in a room staring at a teacher in front of a board, taking notes, taking tests are regurgitating information. Test scores, SAT’s/ACT’s and GPA, along with sports, are what still count the most. We insist on grouping kids together by the year they were born, not by their abilities or intellectual needs. This was the same model as when I graduated high school 20 years ago, and even then (and I went to a top public high school in the northeast in one of the most competitive areas) I remember thinking that half of my classmates may have gotten an A, but they didn’t remember or fully comprehend the information a year or two later, so what is the point?
I could care less about a prestigious private school or any religious education or bragging rights, I would like to find a school with a different model of education. There are many TED talks about more innovative ways to educate children in not only teaching the three R’s, but how to inspire creativity, critical thinking, rational thought, thinking outside the box and sound financial decision making (which I’m sure many of us in this group feel is sorely lacking in our society in general and in education). There are schools now that have kids watch lectures at home (since everyone can watch YouTube or Khan Academy) and then come to school and solve the problems together, or to discuss the lecture, versus just being lectured to as we do now. How we teach is just as important as what we teach, in not more important.
There should be far more options for private schools/independent schools that are more affordable for all, can use public funding/taxes but make entry less selective for most, or just reform the public education school model. Overworking teachers with larger class sizes and lumping too many children together in large classrooms is not the most efficient or beneficial model. Large class sizes and test scores do not equate to more intelligent, socially responsible, successful people. Bullying and other social issues have become major issues that many public schools are just not currently equipped to handle well.
As far as financial choices, a good education is part of a generational contract. No, siphoning off more children to private school does not help the general public or the public education school system, but until public schools start to compete better or change their model, they will continue to lose students to other educational models and the divide between the rich and the poor will get worse. FWIW, I’m sending my oldest to a public kindergarten in a great public school in a few weeks, but if we are not happy with the school within a few years or feel that the school isn’t doing enough, I wouldn’t hesitate to find a (hopefully affordable) school that can do that. How we prepare our kids for the future is very important, not just for us as parents, but for the good of society. Like everything else, it’s a cost/benefit analysis. Spending 200 hours or more a year is a big chunk of their impressionable childhood lives, and if it’s not spent wisely, it costs far more than an extra $1.2 mil in retirement.
I have been on both sides of the argument here. I did my residency in a southern city, where the history of “white flight” resulted in the majority of private schools opening just when public schools became desegregated. Pretty much everyone I knew sent their kids to private school, as the reputation of the public schools was terrible. Having been raised in suburbs in the northeast, we had excellent public schools that I attended K-12, so I sent my son to public kindergarten. It was truly terrible, academically, socially, and environmentally. We ended up sending both kids to a private school for the remainder of our time in that city. Financially, it pretty much broke us. We decided to uproot our lives and move across the country so as to avoid paying for private school again until possibly college. Our current city has pretty good public schools (not to the level of nearby suburban schools, but more diverse and with excellent opportunities for the motivated student). We have not looked back, and our finances have never been better. To each their own, I suppose, as there are so many factors here, but we chose to move and take advantage of public schools.
Jim, I really don’t think the internet needs any more social commentary. When I look forward to opening up by morning WCI email, I do so anticipating learning something useful and pragmatic that I can apply directly to my financial life. To date, you have been nothing short of exemplary of meeting your stated WCI mission and I am personally and deeply grateful. Although I applaud you and your wife’s dedication to public education, hearing about it has nothing to do with my own personal finances. If this piece were more of a mathmateical comparison of cost or opportunity cost with various education prices, I would have understood and been fine with that. This is, however, a “rant” against private schools as you put it, and not helpful financial info. It doesn’t clearly fit with your stated mission. Please stick to finances!!
Jill—a very nice rebuttal.
I’ll look forward to a return to mission for WCI in tomorrow’s email.
Best to all, have a great Friday!!
You’ll like the next piece I wrote about public/private school better I suspect. I think it’ll run in a few more months. Much less ranty and much more analytical. It’ll probably have 1/4 of the comments/readership, of course.
I would ask, for private schools you do not seem to be making a distinction between parochial (whether that is Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, etc) and PRIVATE (ie Country Day schools, boarding, etc) schools. Around me (midwestern suburb) the local parochial schools are roughly $3,500 per year for k-8 and high school is about $10,000 but there are a couple PRIVATE schools that run $30,000-40,000 per year.
When making the distinction, I would also argue that those who went to parochial schools may have religious minded reasons for the schools. There may also be people who want single gender (not me but there are people) and that is something you will almost always only find in a private school. As a result, it may not just be for academic reasons.
As a disclaimer, I went to Catholic school my entire k-high school (my mom taught at my high school). Also as my high school was in the city rather than my cushy suburb, I was actually exposed to WAY more than I would have in terms of different thoughts, different economics, and different cultures/ethnicities than I would have at my local high school. Now, not every school will be like that, but in my case, there were many parents who scrimped and saved to get their kids in the parochial school and out of the big city public schools which, with a few exceptions, were garbage.
I agree that private school tuition is a “big rock” in financial life, although obviously the size of the rock matters tremendously. My friends send their kid to Catholic school here for $5k/year, while private schools in NYC or DC can be $50k/year.
I think there are coherent arguments to be made for “public school is a public good and needs support” and “moving to be in a better public school district is a better decision than private school.” The problem is that those two viewpoints are in direct conflict. Clustering into the “good” school districts by the families with the means and opportunity to move has a double effect on all other public school districts, because not only are affluent, motivated families not in the school, but property prices drop and the school has less resources. So moving to that better school district is better for your children, but hurts the children in your district even more than if you had stayed and sent your kid to private school. This has also had the additional effects of resegregation in many areas.
My wife and I both went to public school, however for our kids we did not hesitate to send them to private school, for 3 reasons:
1) The statewide public school system is a national disgrace; we live in a “good” school district and the class sizes are 50% bigger than private school with inadequate staffing and no clear way to get better. The state legislature has cut taxes so many times there isn’t enough money in the budget to pay teachers, so turnover is constant.
2) We have More Than Enough. We aren’t sacrificing another “big rock” to pay tuition.
3) Private school is significantly more diverse than public school; the local public school is >95% white, while nearly 50% of my son’s class has at least 1 non-white parent, with origins from around the world. As our children are mixed-race, this is very important to us.
Very interesting that private school is more diverse for you! Now I’m curious about where you live. I have found it to be less diverse in most places we have lived.
I’ve had the same experience with diversity. Our local public school’s student body is close to >95% white while students at our private and charter school have both been nearly 50% from around the world — India, China, Middle Eastern, Latin America, etc.
Going to agree with this as well. In my children’s private school there are White, Black, Middle Eastern, Indian, Latin and South American, as well as some recently immigrated African countries represented. At the public school where I live it is 70+% white, 25+% black, and everything else is within the remaining less than 5%.
For us here in Idaho, our private school (international, IB program) is also more diverse than the local public schools.
Overall, the state is heavily (~75%) Caucasian, and because of the clustering effect that I mentioned above, nearly all the families in my kids’ school district are Caucasian. My kids’ private school is in the city instead of the suburbs and therefore draws a more diverse mix.
Our local private school is the Jim Crow academy HRC investigated in the 60s. There ARE some diverse students- most of the local immigrant docs send their kids there so a few of African (20th century immigrants) descent, Indian subcontinent, Dutch- Canadian… And there are several nonwhite athletic scholarship kids. However the city public schools are mostly Black, the exurb and rural schools mostly white.
Anecdotes aside, most private schools are far whiter than the public schools.
Is this a fact or speculation? I would have to imagine that the vast majority of schools (public or private) have a student population that generally reflects the makeup of the local population. If the school is “whiter,” it’s likely that the local population is as well.
If, in fact, private schools tend to have a high percentage of white students, could it be that private schools tend to be more commonly situated in whiter areas?
It is based off of maps and charts I read in the Washington Post, as well as a few other sources. There is a 2016 article in the Washington Post (The overwhelming whiteness of U.S. private schools, in six maps and charts) that shows several maps, one of which shows how much higher of a percentage of “white” students are in private schools compared to state make-up. The highest gap was in Mississippi, with white student comprising 51% of all school aged students, but 87% of private school students, so 36% more than the state make-up would suggest. The range of over representation (as compared to state racial make-up) is variable, but 10-20% more represented is quite common.
There were 4 states with negative percentages, Utah, -3.4%, Wisconsin, -3.3%, Montana, -0.6%, and West Virginia, -0.3%. I do not know what that says about them.
Not surprised in Utah. I’ve learned from my non-LDS partners that a fair amount of people in Utah send their kids to private school because the Mormon:Non-mormon ratio is lower there than in public school. I had no idea.
Excellent criticism of my portion of the article. There is a contradiction there, isn’t there?
It is human nature to relate that what works for me has to work for everybody else and if somebody is doing something different from me, then …..
All kids are not the same. This decision should not be based on some general assumption “i love public/private schools” or ” i have always supported public/private schools”. Nobody knows their kids better than parents, if your kid needs little bit more help with school, course work, then if you can afford it private school should be in radar- smaller classes, lot better teacher to student ratio, modified curriculum to fit individual student etc. Not because public schools teachers are not better far from it, but it is different having a class with 40-50 kids vs 15-20 kids.
Since we are throwing friends experiences and anecdotal evidence into mix. My best friend takes his kids to public school, our daughters are same age. His daughter is about to start second grade and doesn’t read yet, yeah let that sink in.
In private school about a month or two into first grade they are reading fluently, further more by the end of it is all about critical thinking.
Again as parents we know our kids, some kids need more help some are more independent and shine without much help from teachers or parents. Luckily most of us are in position to make a call private vs public. This decision is individual and should be taken as such between mom and dad at dinner table after kids go to sleep, not what your friends say or what owner of this blog opines on.
Early reading is likely more related to the family than the school. The private school kids did not go from completely illiterate to reading in 1-2 months. Most were likely already reading at home.
Absolutely. How many of us didn’t learn to read until school? Anyone?
100% agree. My 5 year-old is reading level 1 books almost entirely on her own and she’s starting kindergarten next month. It’s because we have emphasized the value of reading and have read books with her every day since she was ~9 months old and worked on teaching her to read since she turned 4. We are doing the same now with my 4 yr old son. When we drive in the car, we do simple math problems and talk about how to solve them. I would argue the most important component of our children’s education comes from home.
A few people have mentioned this sort of anecdote. Is there really an advantage to being an early reader? I distinctly remember a girl from my neighborhood who was an early reader like that but who turned out to be much more average by high school. One of the local private schools really pushes that too, but I’m not entirely convinced the advantage is durable.
I’ve wondered that too. Additionally, my question is how does learning to read very early impact a child’s ability to learn by listening and observing? In many cultures, the preschool years focus on experiential learning, i.e. songs, games, stories and poems. How do we impact cognitive and cultural development by an ever earlier focus on reading? Someone should study this. Not saying it’s bad to be an early reader, but may have other downstream effects on synaptic development, that we dont fully understand.
that anecdote sounds silly – i was in public school but was reading before i hit the door to kindergarten. obviously that had nothing to do with the schools i was in because i hadn’t actually gone to school at that point – my sister taught me.
Jill wins this one!
When I was around 10 years old, our neighbors stopped by to tell my parents about the cruise they had just been on. My parents sounded very impressed. After they left, they rolled their eyes and my father said, ” Can you believe it, they go on a cruise but send their kids to public school”. It’s all about priorities.
If your local schools are good enough, and you have no compelling reason to go to private school ( special language or religious curriculum , etc ) then sure, go ahead, send your kids to public school. But if I think that my kids will benefit in any way by going to private school, that will be my priority. In my case, they do benefit, and I can afford it, although I would certainly prefer to not have private school bills. But my kids are the number one priority in my life. As it happens, I don’t care about nice cars, and I have no interest in boats, but I do care about maximizing my kids education. It’s a big rock but it’s my money.
To be fair, my portion of this post was not originally written as part of a pro/con post. It’s more like a post and a rebuttal. It’s a lot easier to point out the flaws in the argument of another than to come up with an argument in the first place.
Besides, like with politics, we usually think the person we agreed with a priori won a debate no matter what happened at the debate.
Yes, of course. I was just joking. I said Jill won because I agreed with her. All the arguments were cogent. I think that it comes down to this: public schools are fine for everyone, except when they aren’t. If the public schools in your area are really inferior to the private schools, if the public schools are too diverse, or not diverse enough, if your child will benefit from a special curriculum or special attention, then you need to go to a private school and you make it a financial priority. Here’s another “advantage” of private schools that no one mentioned: In my neighborhood, if you send your kids to private schools, you don’t have to worry about paying for college, because the tuition is the same. So to pay for college, just keep doing what you were doing for elementary school and high school.
I was forced to put my son in a private school due to learning issues that the public school was not addressing. He had a CST done but we never implemented the IEP b/c we pulled him from the district. Fortunately, we had a wonderful Montessori school nearby with reasonable tuition (14K yearly) and he thrived there for 4th 5th and 6th grades. Unfortunately, the school ended at 6th grade, then we found him a Waldorf school a little further away with similar tuition (completely different educational approach and not a very good fit for him, but still better than the public school for a number of reasons). He then attended the county vo-tech high school for three years, a great option for nontraditional students, and for senior year of high school decided to transfer to the regular public high school because he was eligible for the work-study program–he went to school every morning of senior year for English and Math only, then was allowed to leave at 10:30 and go to his dishwashing job at Cracker Barrel. Yes, this definitely altered my time table for paying back student loans but was worth every dime to get him the attention he needed. My daughter is doing well in a different public school district, but I will admit that I moved to the next town over (more expensive homes and higher property taxes) to get her there.
One issue I had with the Montessori school was the ostentatious display of affluence by the parents. I was the only parent who drove a sedan (seriously). Every day, luxury SUVs pulled up and stay at home moms with fresh manicures stepped out in full length fur coats to pick up their kids. Ten year olds had iphones while I still had a primitive flip phone. Spring breaks were spent at high end resorts in the Caribbean. It was nauseating and I was ashamed to expose my son to the grotesque parent culture there. Ironically, many of the rich dads were pharmaceutical executives…go figure.
It’s considered good form to spell out uncommon acronyms the first time they are used. For those who were as confused as I was, Google says:
CST = These services include consultative, evaluative and prescriptive services for students who are experiencing academic difficulties. A typical CST consists of a psychologist, a learning disabilities consultant, social worker and oftentimes, a speech/language therapist alongside the student’s parents.
IEP = Individualized Education Program
“ostentatious display of affluence by the parents. I was the only parent who drove a sedan (seriously). Every day, luxury SUVs pulled up and stay at home moms with fresh manicures stepped out in full length fur coats to pick up their kids. Ten year olds had iphones while I still had a primitive flip phone. Spring breaks were spent at high end resorts in the Caribbean. It was nauseating and I was ashamed to expose my son to the grotesque parent culture there.”
Ah, jealously, that green-eyed monster. If SUV’s, manicures, and iPhones are your idea of grotesque culture and ostentatious affluence, you’d better carefully select your kids friends to ensure that none of their parent’s make more than about 50k/yr. Lot’s of people in the world have lots of nice things, good for them.
I’ll admit I get jealous (middle/high school bullying lingers- we held SD Swedish farm austerity mindset and moved to rich neighborhood- eg 8th grader “Jenn only has two pairs of pants!!!” Me- “Why would I need more than two pairs?”). Now I try to calm down and recall I could also have those things if I chose to spend the money and time (do you know how long it took me to get my lovely teal and indigo hair coloring the one time I had a salon do it properly?!? Certainly not worth 6 hours at the salon every 1-2 months!!) and even, when my envy is getting ridiculous, remind myself that too many of those folk (I envy their landscaping most of all though) are one divorce, job loss, or illness away from losing that lifestyle and I treasure my FIRE ability at Swede higher end austerity level. Anyway was glad for kid to understand that she got a new car, once, because we fear used cars (we aren’t farmers who can repair them this generation) but she sure wasn’t gonna get a SECOND new car for birthday 17 or 18 like some of her peers.
Haven’t had a chance to read all comments – great post with different points of view. I personally think many folks think “school” is so normal and ingrained in our society that we forget to take a step back (think Matrix, this is just how things are, but really they aren’t) – mass schooling is a relatively modern concept. I think the rub with most public schools is they have to accept everyone and resources to customize to every child is just impossible. It’s not natural to just be with your age group all day long. Real life is interacting with people of all ages – the more successful you are at that the more successful you will be at life. Learning by rote memorization and tests just isn’t real life. I am just delving into this topic myself with an infant in tow. I love the idea of homeschooling but not sure it is really for us. But learning more about how children’s brains work and the current one size fits all system is food for thought.
My FIL of blessed memory was quite perturbed when I homeschooled big sis the year little sis was born (I stopped after 1 year- I was a crappy homeschool teacher). Anyway his argument was “She won’t be able to fit in to the discipline of the military or working a factory job or something.” My husband answered “We don’t want her fitting in to that sort of a job.”
I really do wish that there were more independent school models available at an affordable cost for most. With all of the years of debate about education, school taxes, etc., it seems that most of the changes in public education have been more negative than positive. Test scores seem to be the only way anyone can think of to measure how children are learning, and there are more administrators than ever before with high salaries and unaffordable public benefits/pensions.
I would be a terrible home school teacher, and that seems to be the only alternative to whatever local public school you are zoned for, or mostly expensive private schools.
My son got expelled from home school.
I love it. Mine wouldn’t last a month in Home School because their teachers would quit.
My niece got expelled from a private christian academy for being caught reading a book about Druids that I bought for her. This is a true story.
In Utah, you can pretty much take your kid to whatever public school you want. But if you want them to go on a bus, then they go to the one they’re zoned for. I’ve had kids in the neighborhood going to four different public high schools and a couple of private schools. Really quite an interesting place educationally, but it makes it hard for neighborhood kids to bond well with each other.
When we had kids, we had this debate and decided that the local Catholic school in Chicago was a good option. The options were move out of Chicago to the suburbs, go to a more expensive non-religious private school, the local public school, or baptize the kids and plan on the local Catholic school. The Catholic school is 2 blocks from our house and I can walk the kids to school and then catch the bus to my job downtown (beats a 1-hr commute on the train from the suburbs).
The problem with the public schools in Chicago (and probably lots of other big cities) is that the mindset of “fairness” has crept into the policy decisions. Gifted programs, selective enrollment public schools (see Stuyvesant High School in NYC), and even disciplinary decisions are now being made through a lens of societal fairness rather than what is best for the kids in the specific class room. For example, disruptive kids are no longer being sent out of the classroom since that can stigmatize the kid, which means the class will be more prone to disruption. 10 more minutes of disciplinary time in-class means less time for material.
Ultimately, we decided that we didn’t want our children to be sacrificial nodes for a social experiment. That sounds harsh, but I can’t think of a better way to express the current mood regarding public education in large cities. As other have said, Catholic schools can be relatively cheap and the ability to stay in the city (kids are exposed to everything that is great about a large, diverse population) is best for our family at this time.
James,
I have to agree with you.
A lot of the large urban school districts in the Midwest have a handful of “special enrollment” public schools. They are generally located in the wealthier parts of town and admission to those schools is generally very political. If the city has a couple of those schools that are in the state’s “Top 10” schools, it gives them some cover when the rest of the schools are pretty miserable.
In some cities with court-ordered desegregation plans, white students living within the school district have the least chance of being admitted into a program as the priorities were African American students AND students outside the school district.
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My parents who were by no definition affluent sent us all to Catholic schools MOST years. They wanted to send us to a school that was faith based and a school that would reinforce the same values that we were being taught at home. To be able to afford it, my father had to work many hours of overtime as well as a number of “side gigs.” As we got older, we joined him on the “side gigs” which included chopping wood, moving furniture and the like. It taught us the value of education as we had to work for it.
My major issue with public schools is twofold. First, with the tenure system, it is very difficult for the school to terminate teachers who are incompetent or who display inappropriate behavior. For example, we had a middle school teacher who was nearing retirement, who would go on these long rants with the general theme that “Jews and Catholics were the root of all evil in society.” When parents started complaining about this, the superintendent would state that the teacher was a WWII veteran who would retire in a year or two.
Second, I have had several opportunities to spend several days in the Detroit and St. Louis public schools. The schools that I visited were dysfunctional.. Some classes had no teachers present. Some classrooms lacked heat and were probably health hazards zx the roofs were leaking. Also, I did not feel comfortable with the security in those schools. If I as an adult do not like that environment, why would I send vulnerable children into that school?