By Dr. James M. Dahle, WCI Founder
This post was originally just a collection of random thoughts about private schools, a rant if you will. I was sure I would offend many of you who have your kids in private school. Instead of running just a big long rant, my assistant editor Jill said she wanted to turn it in to a Pro/Con post and she volunteered to write the Pro part. So my part will be the Con and hers will be the Pro. Just remember that I don't care what you do with your money as long as you can afford it. You want to blow it on travel, wakeboat gas, private school, or whatever, it's your choice so long as you can do it and still put 20% toward retirement. All right, here we go.
Cons of Private School – The White Coat Investor
Random Thought #1 – Private School Is a Big Rock
I often talk about the big rocks in your personal finances. This “big rock” phrase comes from the famous thought experiment where you try to fit a certain amount of rocks, gravel, and sand into a jar. If you start with the big rocks, everything fits in. If you start with the sand, there's no room for the gravel, much less the big rocks. The point is to pay attention to the big rocks first. This is in opposition to the Latte Factor as made famous by Bach, i.e. the idea that if you just stop buying lattes you'll be rich eventually. I would advocate that it is far easier to just pay attention to the big rocks and then you can have all the lattes you want. Since we all only have a limited amount of willpower to tell ourselves “no,” it is far better to use that limited willpower on the big rocks in our financial lives.
So what are the big rocks in your budget? Housing and transportation certainly qualify. So do vacations and state income taxes. But guess what else belongs in there? That's right, private school. I mean look at what it costs. In my area, it's about $10K per year per kid, and I'm told that is really cheap compared to places like the Bay Area and D.C. where it might be $30K per year per kid. But whether you have 6 kids in Utah or 2 kids in California, $60K a year in tuition is a huge rock. $60K a year invested at 5% real for 13 years is over a million dollars, $2.4M if you let it continue to compound for another 17 years at that rate. According to surveys of physicians in their 60s, about 57% have a net worth of less than $2 Million.
Shop carefully for the big rocks.
Random Thought #2 – Private School Affects Public Schools
Okay, here's where our bias comes in. Our kids are all in public schools. We went to public schools. We volunteer in public schools. My wife worked in public schools. Her mother worked in public schools. Her grandparents worked in public schools (and her grandfather was a superintendent). Nobody in my family has EVER gone to a private high school. We live in an area with excellent public schools. We are big supporters of public schools. In fact, with this most recent election, the only sign we had in our yard was a pro-school bond sign.
That said, one of the big beefs I have with private schools is their tendency to siphon off resources that could go toward the public school system. No matter what you believe, it is pretty hard to argue that public schools are not providing a societal good that benefits all of us. A better-educated citizenry improves the economy, society, and government for all of us.
When the children of the educated, wealthy, and/or moral are removed from public schools in order to get a “better” education, that leaves those in the public schools worse off. Kids learn not only from their teachers but also from their peers. That goes for scholastic and non-scholastic subjects. Private schools may also siphon off the most talented and dedicated teachers, although I suppose I have no data to support that. Parents that are likely to put their kids in private schools are also those most likely to be very supportive of the school—i.e., volunteer time, donate extra money, ensure their kids are on top of their school work and behavior, etc. Removing those kids and their parents from the public school system decreases the societal benefit of the public school system for all of us. Don't get me wrong, private school attending families are paying the same property taxes as everyone else, but there's a lot more to support than just paying your taxes.
Random Thought #3 – Financially, It's Usually Better to Move
I get this question a lot. A family feels like they live in an area where the public schools are lousy and they are trying to decide whether to move to a more expensive area and put their kids in public schools or stay where they're at and pay for private school tuition. The right answer is usually to move, whether it is just down the street or to another state. The reason boils down to basic math.
When you pay private school tuition, that money is gone. When you buy a more expensive house, the value of the house is likely to keep up with inflation and then come back to you eventually. Plus, the cost of the house is a one-time expense rather than a recurring one.
Consider this scenario: You can live in a $400K house with crummy schools and pay $40K a year in private school tuition or you can live in an $800K house with great public schools. Over the course of 13 years, you will have paid $40K * 13 = $520,000 in tuition. That money is just gone. If you had spent the extra $400K, and the house appreciated at 3%, you'd be $187K ahead, instead of $520K behind, a difference of $700K. Now, you have to reduce that by the additional property taxes. Perhaps that's $5K–$10K a year. And most people aren't paying cash for their house, so there would be some additional interest costs and maybe some additional maintenance costs. Perhaps $10K–$20K a year. And the realtor fees would be higher. But the fact remains that all that added up isn't going to come close to $700K. You've got to really love your job and the area you live to give up an extra $700K for it.
Random Thought #4 – Benefits Are Typically Oversold
We know lots of people who put their kids in private school for various reasons. I haven't been particularly impressed that their kids are smarter or more well-rounded or more likely to succeed or more moral than those attending good public schools. Nor have I seen any data that supports that contention. You may feel differently, of course, but it seems to me that a great deal of the “private school benefit” is a status symbol. I also think a lot of people hear that the public schools are “bad” but never actually get involved or really investigate whether that is really true. I mean, sure, if your public schools really are terrible or unsafe, then I can't blame you for using your discretionary income on a luxury like private school. But at least go find out if they really are terrible—don't just take your neighbor's word for it.
Random Thought #5 – Cost Matters, Even with Education
On a related note, I am amazed how our cost blinders go on as soon as we start talking about education. I usually discuss this with regards to a college education, but it applies just as much to a grade or high school education. The value proposition is particularly acute when the alternative is completely free (at least of an additional cost beyond the required property taxes).
Go down the US News and World Report college rank list some time. You'll see colleges that are ranked the same for their academic merits but have 4–8 times the cost of tuition. Your children need significant guidance to make a wise college choice. They shouldn't be choosing a college because they think the buildings are pretty or their friend from high school is going there. It's a value proposition. What is the price and how good is the education. Sure, the education might be a little better at one college than another, but it likely isn't 8 times as good.
The same rules apply to grade school and high school. Just because the class size might be 20% smaller doesn't mean the education is 20% better. How much is it worth to have your kids learn geometry from someone who shares your religion? Is a 20 point higher average SAT really worth $100K in tuition? Those are the questions to ask yourself. It isn't just about “what's better.” It's also a value proposition.
I mean, don't you think it's amazing to see parents paying private school tuition for their kids when they haven't even finished paying for their own education yet? What message are you sending to your kids with that sort of behavior? That living your whole life in debt is normal? Is that really your intent?
We need to get out of this mindset that “I'd do anything for my kids” when “anything” includes stuff that makes no financial sense at all. Why don't you give them a choice? They can either attend private schools or you can give them $700K in today's money when they turn 40. The right answer for most kids is going to be “take the money.”
Now you have to know your kids too; some kids need services and experiences only available from a private institution. And we all have discretionary income we can spend any way we like. So if you want to spend your money on private schools, knock yourself out. But do your finances a favor and at least consider the financial implications of your choice before making it.
By Jill Gygi, Former WCI Assistant Editor
If Excellent Education Is a Priority, Make the Necessary Sacrifices
Over the past 20 years we’ve tried it all! We’ve homeschooled our kids, had them in private school, neighborhood public schools as well as charter schools, all in an effort to provide them the best education for their different needs. Jim and I are neighbors and we live in one of the top school districts in the State of Utah, but still, the schools have often come up short and I have felt compelled at times to seek better educational opportunities for my children.
If Jim had just left this post about private school being a big rock and that you should be very careful about choosing that big rock, I would have edited the post, published it, and left it at that! But, after reading his other thoughts on education I felt that I really needed to address his five main points.
First day of Kindergarten for Jill's youngest.
Pros of Private School – Jill
#1 Private School Is a Big Rock
I couldn’t agree more. The years we had one of our kids in private school, we were keenly aware of the big rock that it was, and we made significant cuts in other areas of our budget to allow it to make sense financially.
My husband and I chose private school for a time because our local public school couldn't meet our daughter's needs. She was reading and doing math well above her grade level. Public schools, no matter how good they are, have limited options for teaching a child that doesn't conform. The best they could offer my daughter was to give her extra worksheets for home. They expected her to play along nicely sounding out P-A-T even though she was reading Chronicles of Narnia at home. They also expected her to be patient as others learned to identify numbers while she was experimenting with multiplication at home. How could I sentence her to an education far less than her capabilities? To do so would be a waste of her mind.
When we didn't have the income to justify private school, I homeschooled two of my boys for about four years. Now, THAT was a sacrifice and a labor of love. A teacher at our top-rated elementary school told me that my son was so different from the rest of the class that she didn’t have a way to teach him effectively. What is a parent to do in that kind of situation? Well, I wasn't just going to leave him there with little being taught. I bought a curriculum for a few hundred dollars that met his needs and I taught him myself! Every bit of sacrifice of my time and money was worth seeing my kids work to rise to their potential.
#2 Private Schools Affect Public Schools
I know Jim is well-meaning in his defense of public schools but if a public school isn't giving a child the best learning opportunities, should that child be sacrificed to the “public good?” Just because Jim is biased toward government education doesn’t inherently make it the moral “good” or the right fit for every kid in America—rich or poor.
It's not that I'm against government-run schools. I believe they are a public good and the right fit for many situations. What I’m against is people resenting, compelling, shaming, or legislating against others who choose an alternative. Physicians don’t seem to like it when well-meaning people say that they owe a debt to society for putting them through medical school. I don’t like it when people say that my debt to society is to sacrifice my children's education to systems that may not be working for a child.
#3 Financially, It Is Better to Move
Jim suggests that private schools “siphon off ” bright kids and families that are needed in the public schools and that those families basically have a moral responsibility to stay in the government system. However, his next argument is that it is a smart financial decision to buy your way out of a crummy school by purchasing an expensive home in a great school district. Using his logic, wouldn't then those “great public schools” be themselves, “siphoning off” the brightest kids and families from the crummy public schools that need them most? Wouldn't the greatest moral good be to move INTO a poorly performing public school? Of course not! That would be absurd.
Like Jim, I think moving into a great school district to better your children's educational situation is a perfectly viable option for a family. Likewise, opting out of the government system is just as viable an option and no less moral of a decision.
#4 Benefits Are Typically Oversold
Jim hasn't been overly impressed with kids who've attended private schools. My experiences have been different. We've found the benefits of our educational choices to be outstanding. At the private school our daughter attended, she was taught a rigorous curriculum. She, along with every student, was assigned to breakout learning groups that matched her academic level. Students were taught how to think on their own, to question assumptions, and to take individual responsibility.
At the charter school my daughter currently attends, the children are the most polite I’ve ever been around. They open doors for parents and each other; they say, “Yes ma'am,” or “No, sir”; they are exceptionally kind to each other. They act like this because it's part of the curriculum and expected. They are challenged each day in small learning groups that are ability-based allowing each student to learn at the level that best suits them. Expectations are high. I believe these kids act in a way that is noticeably different.
My daughter won a lottery position to attend this charter school and we were able to transfer her from the private school. Hey, I'm not stupid; there's no reason to keep paying for private school when the charter accomplishes my main goals. If you aren't seeing a significant difference between private school education and what you can find at the public schools, then absolutely stop wasting your money.
#5 Cost Matters
Some of you are parents or grandparents that have “Enough” or “Beyond Enough.” If that is the case, why not look at private schooling if it could give the children you care about “more.” If you aren't in that position of Enough yet, but feel the acute need that your child needs “more,” then you still have options! You can move into a better performing school district, find special programs within the public schools that can better meet your kid's needs, you can homeschool, find a charter school, or sacrifice like crazy to afford a great private school. All are viable options for helping a child reach their potential—all without feeling any guilt (as long as you save that 20% for retirement!).
What do you think? What does private high school in your area cost? What financial sacrifices have you made to put your kids in private school? Do you think it's worth the cost? Why or why not? Have you considered moving to a better school district? Do you think families have a moral obligation to keep their children in the public schools? Comment below!
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[This updated post was originally published in 2018.]
We have sent our kids to both public and private schools. There is no such thing as a school that is right for every kid.
A big financial aspect of private schools that I think you missed is lifestyle creep. When our kids’ friends belonged to the local country club, had ski houses and got new Volvos on their 16th birthdays (not making any of that up), we had to explain that our priorities are different. Our lifestyle, house etc is plenty nice enough, but we were practically have-nots. The number of parents who didn’t work – who were independently wealthy – was amazing to me. I was/am actually glad my kids had the example of two parents who both work.
In public school, my kids realized that they are very very fortunate. Parents who work full time, kids getting summer jobs, modest lifestyles are the norm. We all – myself included! – do better at appreciating what we have instead of thinking about what we don’t have. This is a mindset of living within your means and being grateful for what you have that for us has been a huge boon.
Thank you so much for posting this. This will be more of an issue for me later on in life I assume. I attended private school for high school. In the public school system, I was not good enough at sports or music to make the public school teams or school bands. When I went to private school, because there were less kids, I was able to participate in extracurriculars that I never would have done in public school. My best memories in high school were the extracurriculars by far. Now, was it worth $20,000 / year? Would I have eventually been able to participate in the extracurriculars in the public school system? I don’t think I will ever know and it is hard to say if my memories were worth the money, but I am so grateful to my parents for giving me that experience
Glad somebody was glad to see this. There were at least a couple of commenters above who thought it was inappropriate here.
I thought it was a great post. Provided food for thought, regardless of which path you have chosen for your kids. Couple of pertinent things:
-we all think what we did/are doing is the right thing (otherwise, we wouldn’t have done it…), and so we want to defend that choice.
-where you are located makes a huge difference. At certain points in your life, geographic arbitrage, even for schools, is possible, at other times, it’s not. I continue to believe that Mississippi is dramatically different than Utah, for example.
-Non-academic factors play a large role…religion, desire for diversity, etc.
I put one of my kids in private school 7th grade onward. Small private university. He started med school, but flunked/dropped out. Had I not put him in those schools, I believe he would have done worse…and I would have felt inordinately guilty for not giving him the chance. For me…and me only…it was worth it so that I would know that I gave him the opportunity. The fact that he chose not to continue was “his choice”. Perhaps that comes in the category of “minimizing regret”.
Some of our kids did well with homeschooling, some did well with private school. We selected a smaller, charter school for High School (still public, but more freedoms for how they teach, class/student body size, etc). My wife had to sleep on the sidewalk for two days to get our first in. If you have a current child, then siblings are automatically enrolled. When you have to sleep on the sidewalk, you are pretty dedicated. The school changed to a lottery system, and it really hasn’t been the same.
We could afford the tuition for the 1st – 8th with some sacrifices so that is what we did. High school tuition was too high for us, so we selected the charter school. But, I wish we had found a way to continue with private. When the people who are with your children for 8 or more hours a day, don’t share your values, it really does make a big difference. I don’t believe I owe the public anything, especially including sacrificing my children.
And Jim, like others have noted, you take a poke at private schools for stealing talent, money, etc from public schools, but then go on to say, just move to a better area if you don’t like your public school. That does the same thing.
Many make the sacrifice to send their children to private school or homeschool. They shouldn’t feel bad about it as I am sure, they all have their own reasons for doing so. And giving up a latte a day, cable (probably why we have 6 kids :O) ), fancy phones, and maybe a few other small items can often be enough to be able to afford it.
The price of private school in some parts of the country is ridiculously high. Consider this: Is a third grader getting an education at their private school that can be compared with a medical school education? They can cost the same. At the same cost, are you getting your moneys worth out of that private grade school?
I coach many physician couples who are struggling to pay the bills . These families cannot afford private school for their kids. They are often behind on their taxes, or not putting money into their retirement accounts, or stretching out paying off their own student loans for 20 years, or don’t have enough insurance, or they have other issues that speak of not having enough money to meet their spending habits. In that setting, it is ill advised to use private schools.
On the other hand, if you are meeting all the needed budgetary goals, saving plenty for retirement, paying off your own student debt rapidly, and you still have some leftover money you need to put somewhere, then private school can be one of the luxury choices you make. You could also go on more expensive vacations, or buy a nicer car or home.
Spending money on big rocks that you can’t afford, will never pay off in the long run. When you can’t afford things, there are ramifications at home. Other fun experiences are sacrificed and money arguments could lead to divorce. If overspending leads to divorce, nothing you were buying was worth the trade off. It isn’t really different than overspending on a dream home. The negative financial effects will be the same.
Spend your excess money in areas that enhance your life, private school could be one of them. Just make sure it is excess money and not at the expense of something else you should be doing but are now skipping.
Dr. Cory S. Fawcett
Prescription for Financial Success
Well said Dr. Fawcett!!
My observation is that some of my doc friends that send their kids to the very expensive local private school seem to really fall into the “keeping up with the Jones ” trap.
Exactly. Another status symbol.
Topics to avoid: politics, abortion, money, religion, taxes, how to raise someone else’s children, and…private versus public school. This blog is focused on money and taxes, so those two are hard to avoid.
This topic really involves all of these and is a completely personal decision, for those lucky enough to be able to choose. I tell no one what to do on this issue or with their kids.
All four of our children went to the Montessori school where my wife worked for two decades as co-director. All have gone on to a secular private school that is diverse and college preparatory. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christian, Buddhists, Catholics, and atheists…all at the same well integrated school that the teachers chose to put their own children. All colors, all religions.
I know everyone there and all their children. I’m the school auctioneer and fund raising MC. I was on the board for years. All of my kids played and excelled at ALL of the sports teams. All have excelled academically and are college bound or graduated.
Generally, it cost about $20,000 a year for three at a time for this wonderful experience. They were all in the same school and each of the older girls got to mentor their younger sisters to become captains on the volleyball team.
I would not trade their experience for any other. So, I have a bit less in my retirement accounts and worked some extra weekends. Parents make sacrifices for their children. So, I didn’t buy a sports car, haven’t been to Europe, and my kids were safe, well educated, and all of them loved this school.
I have always been biased in favor of public schools (as you can guess, that’s where I went!) I think part of the reason was having such a good experience. Someone commented above about a kid being way behind on reading level (nonexistent I would say is very far behind) at a public school, which I feel if that was the situation going on in a local public school I would be influenced to send my child to a private one.
That being said, my “government” 😉 schools always had different classes and options to “test up” into a harder class. Not quite as much in early schooling (k-3), but there were always options after that to take tougher classes. I grew up with most of my neighbors and very close friends all in private schools. There was never a time I can think of that I didn’t have an option to take an equivalent if not higher level of core educational classes (regular, honors, AP, and of course flat out jumping up to a higher subject). I was certainly never behind, especially when leaving for the “real world” (smirk)- college. I started college in calculus 3, advanced physics… you get the picture. I only had 1 friend that went to the one of the local private schools that was near this level, and he ended up retaking all the basics in college because he was not comfortable.
Same thing happened in college. Went to a cheaper local school. Guess what; they had the same math and science as the fancy folk! I would eventually sit in class next to people from Duke, Hopkins, Harvard, Penn etc in medical school and outperform most of them as well. They gave little incentive scholarships in the first 2 years for being in the top 10% of the class (maybe to make us all more neurotic and competitive, as if AOA wasn’t enough motivation) as well as another one giving some free books to the top 5 students (150 total peeps in the class). I got both of those scholarships consistently.
My approach is solely practical (not like WCI’s “common good” though I see what he is saying). I went to only public school and there has never been a door closed in my face for it; in fact there were many times I was ahead of my peers in private school. I will add the caveat that I am assuming the public schools where I grew up must be pretty good ones. If I was in an area where I was completely sure they couldn’t get a good education in a public school (I am certain they can where I live though), I would logically consider the local private school or moving. My parents never paid a dime for my education (other than property/local taxes, and taking the time to be amazing parents), and I plan to do the same (maybe i’ll consider paying for their college, if they are good 🙂 ).
Our two girls are both under 10 YO and we fortunately live in a district with excellent public schools. However, philosophically we disagree with much of where the elementary schools spend both their time and our money. The teachers and staff are excellent, but are severely restricted by administrative policies. The primary focus is keeping average test scores up to maintain funding. If your child happens to be notably above the curve, they’ll spend most of the day bored despite the individual teacher’s best efforts. Most of the teaching focus is bringing slower students up to speed to meet the minimum testing scores.
That’s one of the main reasons we’ve been doing homeschool P/T with about half-time at the local elementary school. Our upcoming relocation to New Zealand will change that to homeschooling F/T at least through January. Unlike some other places, our local high schools partner with community colleges to offer higher level courses to advanced students along with vocational classes. It’s great to have the flexibility of homeschooling along with excellent public school options. That’s hardly the case for most families.
In the end, I’ve come to think “success” for your child (however it’s measured) is far more about the individual child, not the academic institution. I went to parochial school followed by public high school. Nothing changed in my learning. If your child is destined to be successful, it will be the same end result whether they attend private school, public school, vocational school, learn at home or head to Finland to study. Where your children will learn best depends entirely on the individual situation for those families fortunate enough to have a choice in the first place.
We chose private schools for most of our children’s education for several reasons:
1. We wanted the best environment for our kids. This was unrelated to having smart kids around them. More along the lines of good influences. This paid great dividends for both our kids as they have become adults. The drug and promiscuity culture in the public schools in our area were much greater than in private school and our son was very impressionable. It certainly existed in private school, but was far less and was not respected.
2. The liberal ideology that is pervasive in the public school system was not something we wanted to have our kids exposed to as they were growing up. My daughter is in Med school now and the stuff she tells me about whats being taught along those lines is amazing to me. In my opinion this has no place in our education systems.
3. Every situation is unique: Quality of school options, financial ability, ideology etc. Its a very personal decision.
I am happy to see this post. It’s a tough decision that my wife and I have gone back and forth with a lot. Financially there is no question it is a bad idea, but I don’t think that anybody has kids in order to improve their finances.
Educationally, I think that the cream always rises to the top and someone who will be successful will find success no matter where they go to school. Obviously, there are exceptions and some will do better in different situations. But I would like to see some links to some evidence comparing ACT/SAT scores, college success (GPA, graduation rates), and future earnings between public and private school students. Just to make it a bit objective.
One spot that I think is missed in this post is the concept of the good life. Successful personal finance is not the end goal. It is only the means. Now, it’s much easier for my wife and I to have a “good life” if we don’t spend a lot of money on our kids’ education. That would be money that we could use to go out to nice restaurants, take fancy vacations, buy a boat, or retire earlier. But what about our kids’ lives. We brought them into this world so I feel responsible for ensuring that they also have a good life.
There seems to be enough research out there talking about experiences being one of the things that bring people the most happiness, i.e. the good life. This is true for kids too and is one of the main reasons we send our kids to their schools. Small class sizes, personalized teaching, HOURS outside every day, and a progressive (educational technique, not political) education make for a great EXPERIENCE 7-8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Is the outcome any different? Probably not. But the experience probably is. It’s a huge part of their lives and I do think it’s an important consideration. (Future Post TPP?)
Would they also be happy and have a great experience at a public school? Probably. But the good suburban public schools in our city have large class sizes, infrequent recess/outdoor time, and a huge emphasis on standardized tests. Those things are not a priority to me or my wife, so we pay for private schools.
To keep things in perspective, we are still living like residents (just graduated fellowship a year ago). I took a job in the same city as my residency/fellowship so we didn’t have to move from our resident house. Our current mortgage payment is only 6% of my monthly net pay (and will be even less as I progress towards partner), and are currently aggressively paying off student loans in 2-3 years thanks to the advice on this site and PoF. So yes, private school is a big rock, but there’s room in the jar.
Experiences definitely provide much more contentment and happiness than things.
I wonder if we ask our kids what they think throughout this decision making process? What would they say about these same experiences?
It’s a tough nut to crack, but it’s certainly one worth considering.
TPP
There’s room in your jar. That is not the case for many, including docs.
Will “Should Your Kids…” Part 2 argue about paying too much for higher education?
That’s one of the biggest rocks of all since student loans typically end with either paying them off or dying. With a handful of notable exceptions (Harvard, Stanford), there’s almost no correlation between how much someone pays for college tuition and future earnings. Yet colleges are still bursting with applicants despite record breaking annual tuition increases over the past twenty years.
I already know WCI will be writing from the CONS position. 😉
I’ve written about that one a ton. Here’s an article:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/the-four-pillars-of-paying-for-college/
This was a great post, but at least here there are no really good public school systems. You don’t have the choice of moving a somewhat short distance. And many live where they do because of say family or other issues. And that diversity that you see in public systems are a double edged sword. You perhaps learn some valuable things but are exposed to say gangs, drugs, bullying, and other damaging things that might be more prevalent there. Here we also have bad public infrastructure and bad management as well.
I’m surprised the commentary hasn’t been greater!
As I believe I’ve mentioned in the forum, I’ll spend plenty of money on extracurricular stuff/educational travel. We can get a lot of added value with $10-20k/yr on sports/art/museum. We could probably “afford” to do that AND private school, but I just don’t see the added-value: Ultimately, during grade school, my kid is only there for 6 hours anyway (for 180 days). It’s a lot more important to me to have that extra day or two each month to spend with the family (as opposed to working to pay for tuition). Perhaps I’ll feel differently when teenage years arrive….
This “debate” is kind of silly. No one is faced with a choice of sending their kids to “private school” or “public school”. In real life, the decision is between one or more specific public schools and one or more specific private schools. What influences the decisions is the individual characteristics of the school itself. Whether the school is public or private is irrelevant, it is the specific characteristics of the school (and the kid going there) which are important.
This is my view as well.
There are fantastic public schools and crummy private schools ( and of course vise versa).
As a public school graduate, I am disappointed by the dystopian view of public education evident in some of the comments. The decision of public v private is not only child-dependent, but seems to have a strong regional component. I guess that accounts for some of the difference in perspective though WCI and Jill are from the same area.
My related observation is that areas with solid suburban public school districts seem to boast better private schools than areas with weak public schools. This makes sense as public and private schools are essentially competing for students. So the area where you live may matter more than the ultimate school choice.
Jill and I live in the same area currently, but are not from the same area and have lived in very different parts of the country and world.
Excellent point.
While I am with Jim on the social responsibility aspect of using (and contributing our parental presence and our kids’ presence to) public schools (bet we are much further apart every other ‘political’ view), I sidestepped the issue.
1- I really kept my kids in public school* here in Alabama because I did not want the slog of driving them into town 1-2 hours daily to get to the private school there. Saving money, and a perception that the kids from that private school I’d interviewed for college, and the newspaper articles I saw about the kids there in academic competitions, did not warrant the expense (only the boys seemed to gain fame, and there were a lot of smug goof offs or way over the top helicoptered kids there), were side points but not the true reason. I hate driving and hated the thought of having to deal with that for 12 years.
*(BTW after Montessori daycare in England for the youngest and then “Public” ((actually private)) first grade paid for by the US Army there for her since for primary school the wait lists for the other schools- all church schools- near us were insane, though the older went to the local upper school with everybody- her age was usually in BOARDING school if one was well off)
2- Both kids- one one year, other 3 years- attended a public state boarding high school here with 300 other top notch smart kids, and college level teachers, workload, and courses. A magnet school of sorts. Wish they’d been able to access this curriculum locally but not available. The kid who came back home just did college classes in the afternoons and was the valedictorian etc of her average exurban school.
3- My public school in the 70s was one of the best in the country (though maybe it was the raw material- a bunch of college profs’ and engineers’ kids). Achieved about what my kids’ boarding school did, just not as many weird advanced classed.
This has been a fascinating post. My kids have always been in private school as noted (reply #30).
I went to public schools. Back then (1970-1982), they were quite safe and I did enjoyed them. Only my affluent or Christian/Catholic friends went to private school. It seemed to me they were primarily for religious reasons and to avoid us “riff raft”.
My private school friends did more drugs (pot and alcohol) and had sex at younger ages than my public school friends. I remember thinking it was funny when I was in high school.
I was bullied a bit in elementary, middle, and high school. Luckily I was fast and grew a lot in high school (to 6’4”). I attended one excellent elementary school, two middle schools and three different high schools. There were mean axxholes in all three high schools. My high school GPA was 2.25. It took me years to catch up in college. I am one of only two physicians in my high school class (<0.5%).
My kids have been spared these phenomenon as well as the cultural indoctrination and “standardized test focus”of the local public schools, and all four have been in the same school since they were 6 years old. They are critical thinkers, scholars, athletes, and the eldest was successful in college. One is off to a public college in the fall.
The cost may end up being $300,000. Piece of mind: priceless.
Some of it is geographic. Where I grew up there were three high schools. Public (grades 10/11/12, each class with 500 kids), a Catholic high school and a Lutheran high school (both with small enrollments). There was no option for a 50K/year boarding school. Reasons for not going to the public school were varied, but tended to be some of the families “with money”. if anything the drugs were at those schools. The public school had cigarettes and Boones farm. Sports drove many into the public school. but the public schools were good at the time (we had all the arts, shop, music, advanced math, computer classes (not bad for the 80s learning programming on Apple 2E and Texas Instruments computers)….. There also was no diversity argument at all. in the high school of 1500 kids, there was one kid who was half black. So I was totally public school educated to include college and medical school. When we had our kid and where we lived, it just happened the very expensive private school was 2 miles down the street. it was actually more convenient for 2 working physicians to logistically get the kid to the private school than the public school which was further away and started later and got out sooner. If we lived closer to the public school it may have been a different story…..
My wife and I went to public schools growing up and we’re both physicians. My public schools were not necessarily the best schools either. Interesting to hear other folks here on the forum who went to public school and now are high income professionals. Jim.. can we do a POLL and see what kind of educational background most people have here from elementary, middle, high school, and college in terms of private and public education? I’d like to think that folks here on the blog are also the brightest folks as we all have a desire to learn above and beyond medical. Also a POLL for what percentage of folks send their kids to private or public schools.
I agree with Jim’s points.. I think private school gets oversold on the fear factor that you may be depriving your kids the BEST education. At the least probably moreso at the elementary and middle school level? Really.. pay 10-20k to learn numbers, letters, reading, writing? Maybe it makes more sense at the high school/college level given the child’s potential to expand their knowledge base and/or to be influenced by better paid teachers who are perhaps more likely to love what they do at a private school?
I’d like to believe most of the kid’s soft education comes from us as parents. Im actually more interested in instilling the desire to learn, to ask questions and answer their own questions, the desire to read and devour any literature that fascinates their curiosity. How do we instill grit, discipline, patience, perseverance, determination? By leading through example, by setting expectations of chores and completion of homework, expectations of keeping high grades, by spending time with them and looking out for the teachable moments. We are their best teachers. Im just not sure private schools will do that much more above public education?
Both my FP husband and myself have 12 years of Catholic education…he actually has 16, since he went to Notre Dame for undergrad (all fully paid for by our parents- for which we are quite grateful.)
Our priority was to give our child the same educational opportunities we had been given. That meant that we chose to only have one child. She went to 3 years of traditional Catholic school and then transferred to a Catholic IB school that was closer to his practice and allowed her to travel internationally in 8th grade. She did a hybrid homeschool (still parochial) for high school because the big Catholic high schools were all inside the city and would cause our “not a morning person” kid to have to get up at 5:30am to get to school.
She took a gap year and is starting at a private (not Catholic!) college next month because our college advisor was able to steer her to the schools where she was most likely to get accepted AND get some scholarship money. All of these choices were sacrifices especially during 2008-10 when his private practice was on the rocks due to the economy. Yet we did what we had to do.
He will retire before age 65, with a full pension and a decent 401k and she will not have any student loans when she starts out in the world. We knew from the beginning what our priorities were- we just needed to work to make it reality.
Ok, what I am going to say is controversial, but please hear me out. I don’t have anything against public schools or private schools. I don’t think there is data out their to support either side in being “better” than the other.
I have 4 children and send them to public school. In my opinion, the lack of data supporting that a private school education will lead to an ivy league university entrance or will lead to a better career trajectory just doesn’t exist.
However, in many public schools, it is required by the state and federal level to publish how children do in the areas of math, reading comprehension, science, college readiness, etc. You can use this data to compare one public school to another. One may have better scores than another.
Here’s the controversial part. The published public school score cards also break down by race. Now, I don’t think one race is better or smarter than another. I think everyone is EQUAL. However, almost always, asians are at the top, caucasians in the middle, blacks and non-white hispanics near the bottom….as groups. I get that there are some asians at the bottom and some blacks at the top. But collectively, this is how is plays out in almost every public school score card….I’ve looked at hundreds.
I believe the difference is cultural and how one is raised in the home. The public schools in my area are average, but the asian segment fares will in all subjects including college readiness. We are southeast asian and highly stress education at home. When our kid walks in with a 97 on a test, we don’t congratulate him, but ask him what happened to the other 3 points. This is cultural and happens in a lot of asian homes.
So all in all, it doesn’t matter what school you send them to……what matters is how you raise them.
Be careful about criticizing the 97. That won’t work with all kids. My parents did that as well, but instead of motivating me to try to get 100’s, I figured out that since I was going to get criticized anyway, I might as well stop studying and just get 70s, which is what I did.
I love my dad, but I still complain 40 years later to my kids and friends about him saying “What happened to the other 2%?!?” And have tried not to be that parent.
Yet I still argue with husband that they don’t deserve money for making As. With us as parents and no marked difference in their IQs and other functioning etc from ours, “we” (our genes plus our parenting) can take a lot of the credit for their As. They haven’t worked as hard to keep getting As as peers who get a B after Ds. I applied this to the principle of whether they get a bonus for college scholarships as well- didn’t want kid 2 choosing State with scholarships over Ivy or otherwise better than State just to have more money in pocket since kid 2 got that benefit.
Clearly a very personal and highly controversial topic. I applaud Jim for putting his personal opionions out there (even if I find #2 irritating and eerily close to the similarly annoying claim by some that physicians have some sort of moral obligation to society to keep practicing longer just because they went through all the education and training).
The bottom line, as many have stated, is every city/town/school is different, every family and their financial situation is different and certainly every child is different. Know your children well, know your family and financial situation well and do your due diligence on more then one school option. If you do all those things I’m sure 90%+ of the intelligent people on this forum make the right decision for their personal situation.
Don’t feel bad. Jill found # 2 irritating enough to write an entire post about it. 🙂 Of course, she got paid to do it…
Ha. And she did a great job. And you both made excellent points and you’re both 100% right based on your individual experiences and family situations. So many factors involved that make every situation different.
This comment section is unbelievable. I can’t wait for future blog posts on the financial implications of much less controversial topics such as same sex marriage, abortion and gun control. There are reasonable arguments for and against private or public schools. Most of them really depend on local issues. I honestly really don’t understand the moral outrage.
It’s why I can hardly stomach the forum section here.
You know this isn’t the forum, right?
Yes, I do.
If an occasional thread on the forum offends you then I suggest you simply do not read the thread. There is plenty of good stuff on the forum.
I just finished the book “In the Plex,” by Steven Levy. It is about the founding and operation of Google. The author kept saying in the book how both founders went to a Montessori school and that had a profound influence on everything they did. Both founders say that it taught them to go with their feelings, think unconventionally, and question authority. It has shaped their philosophy for their entire life, and many of the policies at Google are influenced by this way of thinking. Buffett brags how he went to public school, and how his kids and grandkids go to Omaha public schools. However, in one interview Buffett does say that if he were in a school district with suboptimal schools and you had the means, he would send them to private school. I was amazed in medical school about students that came from less than optimal schools that were simply brilliant, and it did not matter. I have not studied the literature on this, but I think any study would have too many confounding variables. Ben Bernanke, in his memoirs, talks about his elementary school and HS in rural South Carolina. It did not matter for him, he still scored close to perfect on his board tests and made it into Harvard. In summary, it is all over the map and a personal decision. I thought this was a clever post, in that it was cross edited by the founder and his editor. Really enjoyed this one Jim, thanks!
We send our kids to public school, much to the shock of his colleagues who all send their kids to private. I feel like every time there’s a holiday party, it’s non-stop hounding on why we would do this to our children. The horror!
Regarding you point in #3 about private schools siphoning better teachers from public schools…..I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case. I thought public school generally pays better than private school, and the pension is far better. I’ve got to believe top talent *tends* to go for top dollar, but I don’t doubt there are exceptional teachers who are willing to take a pay cut in order to work in a school they believe in.
Agree re salaries- have been told in past private pay 1/2 as much public. Also sometimes this is only job teachers without a state’s required degrees or certification can work. Me- as an MD- can only teach public school in AL as a sub since I have no Ed degree/ teaching major; maybe private have laxer laws.
However some teachers work private so their kids get free or discount tuition.
It is certainly ironic in Alabama that I could not teach biology or sex ed. My niece worked in private schools for years and finally did get an ED degree so she could teach in public schools which have higher pay and better benefits.
I’m a day late and a dollar short with my comments.
I attended private school K-12, went to State U for undergrad/med school.
My private middle/high school was secular, filled with lots of children of really rich people, some just regular wealthy, some middle class, and even some that didn’t have much $ and were there on scholarships/financial aid. The school itself is quite expense (now costs $25k/year in a mid-size Midwestern town). It absolutely has resources and opportunities some public schools simply can’t match, and it offered an environment that let me do some things I likely would never have done in a large public school, i.e. acting/theatre — I was never great but got to do it for 6 years; in a big school I wouldn’t have been good enough to ever get a part and would’ve dropped it. The theatre experience was transformative for me — helped me become more comfortable with myself and helped me enjoy speaking in public. It in large part helped me go from introvert to extrovert (in a good way, not that being an introvert is bad).
Early on in this school, however, I was bullied quite a bit, and this was a carry over from some of the same people that had bullied me in elementary school and whom I also then went to middle/high school with, and that certainly caused social problems.
Additionally, the arrogance and obliviousness of some students was remarkable, the sense of entitlement palpable, and the focus on material goods often obnoxious. I think that can be found at any school, including public schools in rich areas. Most of the friends I ultimately made were not part of the uber rich crowd, and many of them are still friends (I have many friends from high school that are life long friends).
I was an excellent student at my private school, did great on my tests, etc, but I surrounded myself with some of the people that were so much smarter than me that studying with them always made me feel a little dumb.
At State U I met a lot of people who went to public schools and who were clearly far smarter than me, did as well or better than me in high school, were probably more well-rounded, and who adapted better to life in college. As much as I benefited from some of my high school experiences, I didn’t do well the first year at State U because it was so overwhelmingly big.
I live in a neighborhood now where a lot of people send kids to private school, some secular some religious, if they can afford it. With some there’s a purpose behind it (religious ed) and some it’s the immigrant factor (do anything for child education) and some it’s the Joneses factor. My parents, immigrants to the US from South Asia, sent me to all private schools because they basically valued education so highly they didn’t want to take chances on a possible subpar education.
I’ve no idea what would’ve happened had I been in public school all along, however based on my personal experiences, I’ve come to believe the main benefit of private school is it puts a floor on achievement, though only in rare cases does it raise the ceiling. In a top flight public school it’s REALLY HARD for an intelligent person to slack off enough to truly be a terrible student because there is so much accountability. Because they can select who they admit they can ensure not many low-achievers make it in, and often even the low-motivated ones will do some amount of work to pass. For some kids who have ability but not motivation, the private school environment can help them reach a ceiling that is already there, not necessarily raise it.
For a kid that is intelligent and motivated and not hindered by very specific social/learning issues, I believe they will do well almost anywhere.
FWIW we’re doing public schools in a good district. Our jar isn’t big enough to fill it with private school rocks. If it was a bigger jar with more room, we are more likely to have bought a house in the district that’s considered even better than the one we are in (so even more expensive housing) and used those public schools. Right now I pay more in daycare for my younger 2 kids than people do for parochial schools, and I can’t wait to get that money back and use it for non-child related things.
Quick f/u re: Jill’s issues w/high achieving kids. The mark of a really good public school is they can help both high and low students. There is a kid in our neighborhood at the local public elementary school doing math with kids 3 grades ahead of him. He gets that in addition to whatever resources the gifted program offers. A school and a teacher that shrug and say they don’t know how to handle a super smart kid to me is a sign that it’s not really that it’s not as great of a district as people may seem to think, but that it has a lot of smart/motivated kids/families that help those kids reach their potential (like Jim’s kids).
Shoot, that original comment should say “In a top flight *private* school it’s really hard for an intelligent person to slack off enough to truly be a terrible student because there is so much accountability.”
While I agree that the public versus private school decision can be treated as a financial issue, that is not how it worked for my family. Our kids are now college graduates, but this issue reared its head for us when the oldest was in second grade. She was in a “Blue Ribbon”public school but needed some attention. Teacher flat out told us our daughter was safely in the middle so the teacher left her on her own to concentrate on problem kids. I was adamant about keeping her in public schools. My wife more or less said that we were moving her to a private school unless I said we couldn’t afford it. Not if we could not invest the difference; she meant if we couldn’t afford food or the mortgage. So, off to a private school she went. Similarly, when our son’s third grade public school teacher told us our school district no longer taught penmanship…well, by then I knew how that would end up. Bottom line, I suppose some new parents can look at the data to make an informed decision, but I venture to guess in virtually all cases for the target audience of this blog the money was not (will not) be the deciding factor.
For those who live in affluent suburbs there is not much diversity in the public schools. If that matters to you, then you can move to a more diverse school district or go private. If you move to a more diverse district you are likely sacrificing the excellent schools that were part of the appeal of the affluent region.
Much of what you get with affluent regions is highly educated parents who value education. They will cheerfully support high taxes for schools and contribute time and effort to support them. You get much of the same with private, but many privates will include academically talented students from lower income families. Their parents will have the same enthusiasm about education even if they cannot afford to live in the affluent areas.
I agree that saving for retirement is an obligation. But if we did not think we could pay for our children’s educations we would have had fewer kids.
Our kids education was always a far higher priority than our vacations. Vacation trips were never a priority at all. They were something we would do, if we had time and were willing to spend the money, as an alternative to staying home. Often we would take time off, but not go anywhere. No transportation or lodging costs. Simply stay in the house we had already bought.
Yes some of kids’ friends families would take fancy expensive vacations. Since the decisions about vacations were made by the adults in our family, we never considered trying to “keep up.”
We lived in a middle class neighborhood with relatively few physicians or lawyers in the area. The local standard of living was more school teachers and cops than executives. Many were serious about education, as teachers tend to be. But they could not afford the taxes of more affluent areas. The public schools were what you would expect. Sincerely trying but lacking a lot in resources, beset by disciplinary problems and limited in finances.
We went private. The families were a huge range of wealth, from truly rich to 100% scholarship. Our kids had friends from the full spectrum. As they got older they gradually came to recognize the difference but never cared.
Some of the families had expensive cars. But so what? Do I have to buy a fancy car because someone else does? Someone buys all the Mercedes and BMW behemoths on the road. What difference does it make whether I know them?
To think of giving up fancy vacations so I could pay for education as a sacrifice would take an entirely different set of priorities.