By Dr. Jim Dahle, WCI Founder
Setting up a Backdoor Roth IRA can be confusing, so I thought I’d put together a tutorial on the steps people can refer to when they go through this process. Let's get started.
Table of Contents
- What Is a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- Who Should Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- When to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- Backdoor Roth IRA Pros and Cons
- Backdoor Roth IRA Tax Implications
- Backdoor Roth IRA Steps
- How to Fix and Prevent Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
- Backdoor Roth IRA FAQs
What Is a Backdoor Roth IRA?
Despite its name, a Backdoor Roth IRA is not an account; it is a process with two steps:
- Contribute to a Traditional IRA.
- Complete a Roth conversion.
If you understand the rules of both of these steps, putting them together is no problem.
Who Should Do a Backdoor Roth IRA
Remember that if you are a low earner you can just contribute DIRECTLY to a Roth IRA and skip this Backdoor Roth IRA process.
Roth IRA Limits and Conversion Rules
Low earner is defined as a Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) under a phaseout range in 2024 of $146,000-$161,000 ($230,000-$240,000 Married Filing Jointly). Some docs—like residents, employee dentists, part-timers, and even some medical attendings in the lower-paying specialties who are married to a non-earner—can just contribute to a Roth IRA directly.
Anyone who earns at least $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) can contribute $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) to an IRA [2024]. If your income is below a MAGI of $146,000-$161,000 ($230,000-$240,000 Married Filing Jointly), you can contribute directly to a Roth IRA. If you have a retirement plan offered to you at work and your MAGI is below $77,000-$87,000 ($123,000-$143,000 Married Filing Jointly), you can deduct your traditional IRA contributions. Since most readers of this blog have a retirement plan through their job and have (or soon will have) a MAGI over $240,000, they will find that they can't make direct Roth IRA contributions or deduct their traditional IRA contributions. Thus, their best IRA option is the Backdoor Roth IRA process, i.e., an indirect Roth IRA contribution.
Spousal IRAs
Married physicians should be using a personal and a spousal Roth IRA, and you will usually need to fund both indirectly (i.e., through the Backdoor). This provides an additional $7,000 each ($8,000 for each spouse that is 50+) of tax-protected and (in most states) asset-protected space per tax year, and it allows for more tax diversification in retirement. Tax diversification allows you to determine your own tax rate as a retiree by deciding how much to take from tax-deferred (traditional) accounts and how much from tax-free (Roth) accounts. Remember that IRA stands for INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangement, so even if the pro-rata rule (discussed below) keeps you from doing the Backdoor Roth IRA, it doesn't necessarily keep your spouse from doing so. Each spouse reports their Backdoor Roth IRA on their own separate 8606, so the tax return for a married couple doing Backdoor Roth IRAs should always include two Form 8606s.
Married Filing Separately
The contribution and deduction income limits are particularly low if you are filing your taxes Married Filing Separately (MFS). Both the ability to contribute directly to a Roth IRA and the ability to deduct a traditional IRA contribution if you (or your spouse) are eligible for a retirement plan at work phase out between $0 and $10,000. Basically, the best option for anyone filing their taxes MFS is the Backdoor Roth IRA process, i.e., an indirect Roth IRA contribution.
There is an exception to these rules if you do not actually live with your spouse. In that case, your ability to contribute directly to a Roth IRA phases out between a MAGI of $146,000-$161,000 in 2024. If you live separately and are not covered by a retirement plan at work, you can deduct a traditional IRA contribution no matter your income. You can still do a Backdoor Roth IRA process in these situations where your IRA contribution is either partially or completely deductible. The tax bill will be precisely the same: $0 when done properly. However, instead of having no tax cost for either the contribution or the conversion, your deduction on the contribution will precisely equal the tax cost on the conversion, resulting in that same $0 tax bill for the entire process.
Mega Backdoor Roth IRA
A Mega Backdoor Roth IRA is completely different from a regular Backdoor Roth IRA. Despite its name, you actually do a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA with a 401(k), not an IRA. It requires a 401(k) that accepts both after-tax (not Roth) employee contributions and allows for either in-service withdrawals (and thus conversions to a Roth IRA) or, more commonly, in-plan conversions. Using the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA process, one could put as much as $69,000 ($76,500 if 50+) [2024] per year into a Roth 401(k) (or possibly a Roth IRA in addition to your usual $7,000-$8.000 contribution). However, this process has nothing to do with the Backdoor Roth IRA process we are discussing in this post.
When to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA
Lots of people wonder about the timing of a Backdoor Roth IRA.
IRA Contribution Deadline
There is really only one deadline to meet with the Backdoor Roth IRA process. IRA contributions for a given tax year must take place between January 1 of the tax year and April 15 (even if you file an extension) of the following year.
Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion Deadline
The conversion step may take place at any time. It can take place the next day or even the same day as the contribution. I don't recommend it, but you can wait months, years, or even decades between the contribution and the conversion step. There is no deadline for Roth conversions. If you need to perform a rollover or a conversion of a traditional, rollover, SEP, or SIMPLE IRA in order to avoid the pro-rata rule, you have until December 31 of the year you do the conversion step.
When Should You Contribute and Convert?
You should do both steps as soon as possible. Many white coat investors do the IRA contribution step and the Roth conversion step the first week of January each year. This maximizes the amount of tax-free compounding that can occur on those dollars. Minimizing the time between contribution and conversion and doing both steps within the calendar year is not required, but it certainly simplifies the paperwork.
Want to really make your paperwork complicated? Contribute to your IRA each month and convert it each month. Then, you have 12 contributions and 12 conversions to keep track of each year. Seriously, though, if you make enough money that you have to contribute to your Roth IRA(s) through the Backdoor Roth IRA process, you make enough to do it at one time each year.
Can I Do a Backdoor Roth IRA Every Year?
Yes. My wife and I have done one every year since 2010 and do not plan to stop until we no longer have any earned income. It is just one of the investment chores we perform once a year.
5-Year Rule
One factor that may push you to do a Backdoor Roth IRA earlier is the five-year rule. Now, there are at least three five-year rules related to IRAs, but the main one to pay attention to here is the five-year rule after a Roth conversion. This rule determines whether the withdrawal of principal from the account prior to age 59 1/2 will be penalty-free. The five-year period starts on January 1 of the year you do the conversion, so it could be a little less than five years. Roth IRA principal generally comes out tax- and penalty-free (it is only the earnings that may be subject to penalties), but that is only the case after the five-year rule has been fulfilled.
In essence, if you do a conversion of a Roth IRA at age 51, you can then withdraw the principal tax- and penalty-free starting at age 56 rather than age 59 1/2. This can provide funding for living expenses to early retirees. If you do a Roth conversion at age 57, you still get access to that principal (and earnings) tax- and penalty-free at age 59 1/2. So, it's five years or age 59 1/2, whichever comes first.
There is also a completely separate five-year rule on IRA contributions, but this starts from the time you make your very first IRA contribution, not every contribution, so it should not apply to most early retirees.
Backdoor Roth IRA Pros and Cons
There are a lot of great things about the Backdoor Roth IRA, but it isn't all peaches and cream.
Pros of Backdoor Roth IRA
The main benefit of a Backdoor Roth IRA is that it provides you with another retirement account. Via the Backdoor Roth IRA process, you can continue to contribute to a Roth IRA even after your earnings rise above the income limit for direct Roth IRA contributions. Retirement accounts eliminate the tax drag that applies in a taxable, or non-qualified account, reducing your taxes and allowing your investment to grow at a higher rate so you can reach your goals sooner.
How much can that tax protection be worth compared to a taxable account? It depends on the return of the underlying investment, its tax efficiency, and the amount of time the money is left in the account. At my marginal tax rate, $10,000 earning 8% in a tax-inefficient investment over 50 years would grow to $469,000 in a Roth IRA but only $88,000 in a taxable account. More realistically, over 30 years, the use of a Roth IRA vs. a taxable account for a tax-efficient investment would still result in 29% more money.
Retirement accounts ensure simple estate planning. By using beneficiaries, that money does not go through the probate process, so your heirs get it sooner with less hassle, more privacy, and no cost. They can even stretch the tax-protected growth benefit for another decade after they inherit the account. Retirement accounts like a Roth IRA also provide substantial asset protection in most states, meaning that in the admittedly very rare event of a dramatically above-policy limits judgment that isn't reduced on appeal, you can declare bankruptcy and still keep what is in your retirement accounts. Roth money is tax-free forever, so by continuing to contribute each year, you can increase tax diversification in retirement.
Cons of Backdoor Roth IRA
Roth IRAs, even when you contribute via the Backdoor Roth IRA process, are still retirement accounts with all of their downsides. Retirement accounts limit the investments you can put in them and prohibit the use of margin investing. If you withdraw Roth IRA earnings prior to age 59 1/2 without an approved exception, you will owe a 10% penalty.
Due to the pro-rata rule (see below), the Backdoor Roth IRA process requires you to either convert or roll over into a 401(k) any traditional IRAs, SEP-IRAs, and SIMPLE IRAs you may have. If you have self-employment income, you will need to use a solo 401(k) instead of a SEP-IRA to shelter that income from taxes. Doing Backdoor Roth IRAs each year also adds one form (IRS Form 8606) per spouse to your tax return. If preparing your own taxes using tax software, it can be tricky to ensure the software reports the process correctly. If you do a Backdoor Roth IRA instead of (rather than in addition to) maxing out your tax-deferred accounts during your peak earnings years, that can also be a mistake that results in the accumulation of less money.
Perhaps most significantly, there are now two steps to getting money into your Roth IRA each year instead of just one. While I think the process is pretty darn simple, I am continually amazed at all of the unique ways that doctors manage to screw it up. Later in this article, I'll show you how to fix all of those screwups.
Is a Backdoor Roth IRA Worth It?
Yes! Most of the time. It really is just a little bit of hassle to do each year, although there may be some additional hassle the first year if you need to take care of another IRA first to avoid the pro-rata rule. There may be times when someone has a large traditional IRA they cannot afford to convert to a Roth IRA and cannot roll over into a 401(k) because they don't have a 401(k) at all, their 401(k) charges high fees, or because the IRA assets are invested in something they cannot invest in within a 401(k). If your employer-provided retirement account is a SIMPLE IRA or a SEP-IRA, the Backdoor Roth IRA process is also probably not worth it. Finally, some multi-millionaires don't want to bother with even the minor hassle of the Backdoor Roth IRA process because getting an extra $7,000-$16,000 a year into Roth accounts just isn't going to move the needle for them.
Backdoor Roth IRA Tax Implications
Roth IRAs are all about avoiding taxation on earnings, so naturally, there are lots of tax implications of this process.
Pro-Rata Rule
The most important tax implication to be aware of is the pro-rata rule. I would estimate that 90%+ of Backdoor Roth IRA screwups involve the investor having his or her conversion pro-rated. When you report a Roth IRA conversion on IRS Form 8606 (see below), there is a pro-rata calculation made. The numerator is the amount converted. The denominator is the total of ALL traditional, rollover, SEP, and SIMPLE IRAs, but not 401(k)s, 403(b)s, 457(b)s, Roth IRAs, or inherited IRAs. Therefore, it is critical that you DO SOMETHING with any IRA balance you have PRIOR to December 31 of the year in which you do a Roth conversion of after-tax money. Later in this article, I'll describe the exact options you have for what to do with this money.
Tax on Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion
Done properly, there is NO tax on a Backdoor Roth IRA conversion. Zero. Nada. Zilch. While the money you put into a Roth IRA (indirectly via the Backdoor in this case) was taxed when you earned it, it is NOT taxed when you contribute it directly to a Roth IRA or when you contribute it as a non-deductible IRA conversion or when you subsequently convert that money to a Roth IRA. In fact, it is never taxed again.
Do I Need to Worry About the Step Transaction Doctrine?
There used to be a concern that the IRS would have a problem with the Backdoor Roth due to an IRS rule called The Step Transaction Doctrine. This rule basically says that if the sum of a bunch of legal steps is illegal, then you can’t do it. Some wondered if this Backdoor conversion from a Traditional IRA to Roth was a legal transaction considering this doctrine. Those concerns, valid or not, are no longer an issue. The IRS clarified in early 2018 that no waiting period is required between the contribution and conversion steps of the Backdoor Roth IRA. It has essentially given its blessing on the whole process. Waiting just makes things more complicated on the 8606, as discussed in Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA.
How to Report a Backdoor Roth IRA on TurboTax
Reporting the Backdoor Roth IRA properly on TurboTax is unfortunately even more complicated than filling out Form 8606 by hand. The key to doing it right is to recognize that you report the conversion step in the Income section but you report the contribution step in the Deductions and Credits section. Since you generally do the income section first, you report the conversion before you report the contribution, even though you actually did the contribution before the conversion. At the end, you want to look at the Form(s) 8606 that TurboTax generates, just like you would check up on one filled out by an accountant.
More information here:
How to Report a Backdoor Roth IRA on TurboTax
Backdoor Roth IRA Steps, Tutorials, and Walkthroughs
In this section, we'll explain exactly how to do the Backdoor Roth IRA process and how to report it on your tax return, whether you file on paper or using tax software. You can easily walk through these Backdoor Roth IRA steps at Vanguard, complete a Backdoor Roth at Fidelity, or knock out a Backdoor Roth IRA at Schwab, three of the most popular brokerage/mutual fund companies.
How to Perform and Report on Paper the Backdoor Roth IRA Process
While it is really just a two-step process, it is best to think of it as a six-step process. These steps don't all have to be done in order (it might be easier to do Step 3 before Step 1), but they will all need to be done.
Step #1 Contribute to a Traditional IRA
Make a $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) non-deductible traditional IRA contribution for yourself and one for your spouse. You can use the same traditional IRA accounts every year—they just spend most of the time with $0 in them. Most fund companies, including Vanguard, don’t close the account just because there is nothing in it. I do this every January 2.
Step #2 Leave the Money in Cash
An account like a traditional IRA is not an investment, of course; just like a suitcase isn't clothing. When putting money in a traditional IRA, you also have to tell the IRA provider how you want to invest. In this case, just leave the money in cash, whether a money market fund or a settlement fund. At Vanguard, the settlement fund is the Federal Money Market Fund. You really don't want to have any gains (or especially any losses) between the contribution and conversion step because it makes the paperwork more complicated. The best way to minimize the gains is to leave it in cash (and then of course to do the conversion as soon after contribution as possible to minimize the “pennies” issue).
Step #3 Convert the Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA
Next, convert the non-deductible traditional IRA to a Roth IRA by transferring the money from your traditional IRA into your Roth IRA at the same fund company. If you don’t already have a Roth IRA there, you’ll need to open one. This can be done in a minute or two online at Vanguard, and it is essentially the same process as opening the traditional IRA. I do this the very next day after I make the contribution. It is very straightforward. When you transfer the money, the website will throw up a scary banner saying something like “THIS IS A TAXABLE EVENT.” That’s true. It is taxable. But the tax bill will be zero since you’ve already paid taxes on the $7,000 and couldn’t claim your contribution as a deduction because you make too much money. You can do Step 3 basically immediately after Step 1. Some companies will let you do it the same day. Other companies will make you wait until the next day or even a week or so. But there is no reason to wait months to do it.
Step #4 Invest the Money
Now you will need to select an investment for the money in your Roth IRA. If you already have an investment in there, you can simply add $7,000 to it. Otherwise, you will need to select an investment in accordance with your written investing plan. If you do not have a written investing plan yet, you can leave the money in cash or put it into a Target Retirement 2050 fund or another lifecycle fund until you get that part of your financial plan worked out.
Step #5 Beware of the Pro-Rata Rule
Get rid of any SEP-IRA, SIMPLE IRA, traditional IRA, or rollover IRA money. The total sum of these accounts on December 31 of the year in which you do the conversion step (Step 2) must be zero to avoid a “pro-rata” calculation (see line 6 on Form 8606) that can eliminate most of the benefit of a Backdoor Roth IRA.
You can get rid of these IRA accounts in three ways:
- Withdraw the money (not recommended, as the money would be subject to tax and/or penalties, not to mention DECREASING your tax-advantaged/asset-protected investment space).
- Convert the entire sum to a Roth IRA. Only recommended if it is a relatively small amount and you can afford to pay the taxes out of current earnings or taxable investments with relatively high basis.
- Roll the money over into a 401(k), 403(b), or individual 401(k). 401(k)s don’t count in the aforementioned pro-rata calculation. Some physicians even open an individual 401(k) at Fidelity, eTrade, or Vanguard (rollovers from traditional IRAs to solo 401(k)s is a recent addition to Vanguard) in order to facilitate a Backdoor Roth IRA.
Step #6 Fill Out IRS Form 8606 Correctly
The next part of the Backdoor Roth IRA is done months later when you (or your accountant) fill out your IRS Form 8606 on your taxes. Don't forget to do it or there is a $50 penalty. Remember that you need one form for each spouse: INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangements. You need to double-check this to make sure it is done right, even if you hire a pro to avoid screwing up this part. Advisors have told me that they have had to help clients fix dozens of these that tax preparers have done improperly. If you don't do it right, you'll pay taxes twice on your Backdoor Roth IRA contribution.
Page 1 (below) shows a “distribution” from your non-deductible IRA. Since the money was already taxed, the taxable amount on your distribution is zero. Line 1 is your non-deductible contribution. On Line 2, your basis is zero because you had no money in a traditional IRA on December 31 of last year (if you've been carrying a non-deductible IRA for years, this may not be zero). Line 6 is zero in a typical year. Note that TurboTax may fill this out a little differently (may leave lines 6-12 blank), but you end up with the same thing. Line 13 is the same as line 3, so the tax due is zero.
Here's an example from the 2023 version of Form 8606.
On page 2 (below), you are showing the Roth conversion. I'm not really sure why you have to do this twice (since you're just transferring the amounts from lines 8 and 11 and then subtracting them), but that's what the form calls for. As you can see, a Roth conversion of a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution without any gains is a taxable event; it's just that the tax bill is zero for it.
When double-checking your tax preparer's work, you want to concentrate on lines 2, 14, 15c, and 18, and make sure they're a very small amount, like zero, and not a very large amount, like $7,000. The form can get more complicated if you are doing other Roth conversions at the same time or if you made a contribution for the previous year (i.e., made your 2022 contribution in 2023). See below for more details.
Notice how there is no place on the form to put the date when you made the contribution or the date when you made the conversion. It isn't on the form your IRA custodian sends to the IRS (1099-R) either.
Do It All Again Next Year
You do not have to wait any period of time between the contribution and conversion. Each year, I make my Traditional IRA contribution on January 2, then convert it to a Roth IRA the next day or within a few days. That gets my investment money working as soon as possible and simplifies the record keeping. Vanguard won’t let you do it the same day (sometimes other providers will), so I have to wait one day anyway. Occasionally they'll make you wait up to a week. If you find you have a few pennies left in the account and are worried you'll get pro-rated, take a look at this post: Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA.
More information here:
How to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA with Vanguard
How to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA at Fidelity
How to Fix and Prevent Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
In this section, we're going to talk about how to fix and prevent common mistakes in the Backdoor Roth IRA process. To better organize these mistakes, we will break down the process into the six very clear steps used above and then will explain possible errors with each step and what to do about them.
6 Steps to Successfully Contribute to a Backdoor Roth IRA
- Step 1 – Contribute to traditional IRA ($7,000, $8,000 if 50+ for 2024).
- Step 2 – Invest the money in a money market fund.
- Step 3 – Move money from a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA (i.e., a Roth conversion).
- Step 4 – Invest in your preferred investment (typically a stock, bond, or balanced index mutual fund).
- Step 5 – Ensure you have no money in a traditional IRA, SEP-IRA, or SIMPLE IRA on December 31 of the year you do the CONVERSION step.
- Step 6 – Report the transactions correctly on your taxes by filling out Form 8606.
Seriously. That's it. If you can do a cholecystectomy, you can do this. If you can work up a pulmonary embolus appropriately, you can do this. If you can manage hypertension well, you can do this. If you can fill a cavity, you can do this. Super easy.
However, people still manage to screw up on EACH of those six steps. Let's go through the mistakes people make, step by step.
How to Fix Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
Step 1 Error – Contributing Directly to a Roth IRA
An error that commonly occurs with a first Backdoor Roth IRA is that people simply don't realize that their income is too high to make a direct Roth IRA contribution. Instead of doing it indirectly (i.e., going through the Backdoor), which is no big deal even if you're under the limit, they contribute directly to a Roth IRA. Then they realize their Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) is over $146,000-$161,000 ($230,000-$240,000 Married Filing Jointly) for 2024. Now what?
Enter the Recharacterization
If you have made this error, now you have to recharacterize the Roth IRA contribution to a traditional IRA contribution. This basically makes it as though you never contributed to a Roth IRA but contributed to a traditional IRA instead. You usually have to call your IRA provider to get this done, but it's no big deal. In this section, I'll walk you through the details of how to do it.
You have until the due date of your tax return to do this (including extensions). So, if you made an IRA contribution in January of 2023 for the 2023 tax year, you have until October 15, 2024, to do a recharacterization. There's no penalty or anything to do it. You can do the opposite as well if you contributed to a traditional IRA but meant to contribute directly to a Roth IRA.
Bear in mind that starting in 2018, you can no longer do recharacterizations of Roth CONVERSIONS (not contributions). This eliminated the “Roth IRA Conversion Horserace” technique for tax reduction.
Until only a couple of years ago, I had thought there was a waiting period after a recharacterization to then reconvert the money to a Roth IRA. However, that rule was only for recharacterizations of conversions, not contributions. There has never been a waiting period for a recharacterization.
Any gains that occur before the final conversion are, of course, fully taxable at your ordinary income tax rate in the year of the final conversion.
The Income Limit
The first thing to determine is whether this post even applies to you. If your income is below a certain amount, you can just contribute directly to a Roth IRA. That amount depends on several things. First, it is a MODIFIED Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI). That number is very similar to your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). Remember how tax Form 1040 works.
The first income line you come to is line 7b, your “Total Income.” When people think about income, this is generally what they think of. The third income line on the form is line 11b. This is your “Taxable Income.” This is what your tax bill is actually calculated from. It is basically your total income minus all of your deductions. In between those two, on line 8b, is another income, your “Adjusted Gross Income.” This is “the line” that people are talking about when they use the phrases “above-the-line deduction” and “below-the-line deduction.” If it comes out before your AGI is calculated, it is an above-the-line deduction. These are deductions such as self-employment tax, self-employed retirement plans, self-employed health insurance premiums, HSA contributions, student loan interest, alimony, tuition, and any IRA deductions. If it comes out after your AGI is calculated, it is a below-the-line deduction. These are EITHER your standard deduction OR your itemized deductions, like mortgage interest, state/local/property taxes, and charitable contributions. A MAGI is just a slight tweak to your AGI.
Below are the MAGI limits for direct Roth IRA contributions [2024]. If your MAGI is below the first number, you can just contribute to a Roth IRA directly. If your MAGI is over the second number, you cannot contribute at all. If your MAGI is between the two numbers, you can make a partial direct contribution (most shouldn't bother with this, just do it all through the Backdoor).
- Married Filing Separately (and lived with spouse for at least part of the year): $0-$10,000
- Married Filing Jointly: $230,000-$240,000
- Single or Head of Household: $146,000-$161,000
If you think you'll be anywhere close to that first number, do yourself a favor and just make your Roth IRA contribution indirectly, i.e., through the Backdoor (contribute to a traditional IRA and then convert that contribution to a Roth IRA). Since 2010, there has been no income limit on Roth conversions and there has never been an income limit on traditional IRA contributions, just your ability to deduct them.
How does a MAGI differ from an AGI? It's a very slight difference. Bear in mind that there are other MAGIs out there. We're only talking about the one that affects Roth IRA contributions here. But to get your MAGI, you simply take your AGI, subtract some income from it, and add back in some other income to it. The worksheet showing you how to do this is Worksheet 2-1 in Publication 590.
Basically, you subtract income from a Roth conversion and you add income from IRA deductions (not sure why you'd have this), student loan interest (if you are using this worksheet, you probably don't have this), tuition deduction (you probably don't have this), a couple of rare deductions for foreign income/deductions (you probably don't have these), some savings bond interest you probably don't have much of, and some employer-provided adoption benefits. For most people, your MAGI = your AGI since all of these deductions are pretty rare for the folks worried about this limit for direct Roth IRA contributions. So, focus on your AGI. That means if you contributed directly to a Roth IRA but late in the year realized you probably should not have, one easy fix is to get your AGI below that limit by contributing to an HSA or a self-employed retirement plan like an individual 401(k) or SEP-IRA. Note that giving a bunch of money to charity is NOT a solution to this problem because that is a below-the-line deduction.
How to Do an IRA Recharacterization
If you can't get your MAGI low enough, you will have to do an IRA recharacterization. As far as the IRS is concerned, a recharacterization is as though you never made the Roth IRA contribution at all but made a traditional IRA contribution instead. You don't report a recharacterization separately; you just report a traditional IRA contribution. Keep in mind as you read on the internet about recharacterizations that there used to be two types of them—a recharacterization of a Roth IRA CONTRIBUTION and a recharacterization of a Roth IRA CONVERSION. The second type was outlawed in 2018, but the first one, the one we're talking about today, is still perfectly legal. If you decide you want to undo a Roth conversion these days, you're simply out of luck. Here is how you do a recharacterization of a Roth IRA contribution:
- You tell Vanguard (or wherever your IRAs are) to recharacterize the Roth IRA contribution to a Traditional IRA contribution.
Yup. That's it. The brokerage takes care of the rest. You can read all about all of the rules in Publication 590 Chapter 1 if you want, but that's basically what they say. Don't believe me? Fine. Here are the IRS instructions:
How Do You Recharacterize a Contribution?
To recharacterize a contribution, you must notify both the trustee of the first IRA (the one to which the contribution was actually made) and the trustee of the second IRA (the one to which the contribution is being moved) that you have elected to treat the contribution as having been made to the second IRA rather than the first. You must make the notifications by the date of the transfer. Only one notification is required if both IRAs are maintained by the same trustee. The notification(s) must include all of the following information:
- The type and amount of the contribution to the first IRA that is to be recharacterized.
- The date on which the contribution was made to the first IRA and the year for which it was made.
- A direction to the trustee of the first IRA to transfer in a trustee-to-trustee transfer the amount of the contribution and any net income (or loss) allocable to the contribution to the trustee of the second IRA.
- The name of the trustee of the first IRA and the name of the trustee of the second IRA.
- Any additional information needed to make the transfer.
In most cases, the net income you must transfer is determined by your IRA trustee or custodian.
See what I mean? It's just a phone call. Any earnings that the account had in between the contribution and the recharacterization just go over with the contribution. No big deal.
You have until your tax filing date to do this. Most of the time, that's April 15 of the next year. However, the IRS is even more lenient than that. You actually can do this for an extra six months after your tax filing date, but you will have to refile your return.
Where Do You Report a Recharacterization?
If you hire somebody else to prepare your taxes, you can skip this section. If you do it yourself, you'll need to make sure you report this correctly. According to Pub 590, you report it on our old friend Form 8606.
Pub 590 says this:
Actually, that's really misleading. If you read Form 8606, you will see that the only time it ever mentions a recharacterization is to tell you NOT to put it on the form.
So, what is Pub 590 talking about? They're talking about this section in the 8606 instructions:
Reporting recharacterizations.
Treat any recharacterized IRA contribution as though the amount of the contribution was originally contributed to the second IRA, not the first IRA. For the recharacterization, you must transfer the amount of the original contribution plus any related earnings or less any related loss. In most cases, your IRA trustee or custodian figures the amount of the related earnings you must transfer. If you need to figure the related earnings, see How Do You Recharacterize a Contribution? in chapter 1 of Pub. 590-A. Treat any earnings or loss that occurred in the first IRA as having occurred in the second IRA. You can’t deduct any loss that occurred while the funds were in the first IRA . . . Report the nondeductible traditional IRA portion of the recharacterized contribution, if any, on Form 8606, Part I. Don’t report the Roth IRA contribution (whether or not you recharacterized all or part of it) on Form 8606. Attach a statement to your return explaining the recharacterization. If the recharacterization occurred in 2023, include the amount transferred from the traditional IRA on 2023 Form 1040, 1040-SR, or 1040-NR, line 4a. If the recharacterization occurred in 2024, report the amount transferred only in the attached statement, and not on your 2023 or 2024 tax return.
The bottom line is that you just report this recharacterized contribution on Form 8606 as if it were the regular old non-deductible traditional IRA contribution that you should have made in the first place. You also need to include a statement. What should your statement look like? I would write something like this:
“To whom it may concern:
I made a 2024 Roth IRA contribution of $7,000 on March 13, 2024, because I didn't know about the whole MAGI limit thing when I made the contribution. After becoming smarter, I recharacterized $7,137.14 (original contribution plus earnings) to a traditional IRA on November 4, 2024. Thank you for helping our country fund its government. You're the best.
Hugs and kisses from your favorite taxpayer,
James Dahle”
Seriously, it doesn't say what has to be on the statement, just that there is one “explaining the recharacterization.” You don't even have to tell them why you did the recharacterization. If you had a loss in the account between contribution and recharacterization, no big deal. It's still as though you made a $7,000 contribution to a traditional IRA and THEN it lost money. If you were able to deduct the contribution (you probably can't) you would get a $7,000 deduction. The IRA provider may also send you a Form 5498 (which has the recharacterized amount on line 4), but you don't actually do anything with it when you file your taxes. It's just an informational return.
Reconverting the IRA
Here is where it gets interesting. You've now fixed your mistake in the eyes of the IRS, going from an illegal Roth IRA contribution to a legal traditional IRA contribution (that is probably not deductible for you). But you aren't done with what you meant to do, which is put money into a Roth IRA. You now need to do a Roth conversion. You do it just like you normally would as if you had contributed originally to the Traditional IRA. You can do it the very next day if you like. You can probably even do it the same day; just make sure there is a paper trail showing the money was actually in the traditional IRA at some point. There used to be a waiting period after a recharacterization before you could do a Roth conversion on that money. But that waiting period only ever applied to the recharacterization of a Roth CONVERSION (which was no longer allowed starting in 2018) and NOT the recharacterization of a Roth CONTRIBUTION. So, there is no waiting period. Just reconvert convert it and go on your merry way.
I hope this information helps you fix your mistake. Just do your Roth IRA contributions through the Backdoor going forward, and you won't have this problem again.
Step 2 Error – Not Investing in a Money Market Fund in the Traditional IRA
What happens if you LOSE money in between the contribution and conversion step? This problem is easily avoided by using an investment like a money market fund that does not go down in value for that time period. But some people fail to do so and end up losing money. When they work their way through their IRS Form 8606, they discover they have basis left over that they can then carry forward indefinitely for years! No big deal; it just makes your paperwork more complicated. Perhaps at some point in the future, you'll do a Roth conversion of tax-deferred money and this carry-forward basis will reduce the tax on that event.
What if you MADE money in the account between contribution and conversion? This actually happens most of the time, so I wrote an entire post on it called Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA. Technically, any money earned between the contribution and conversion step is fully taxable at ordinary income tax rates in the year of the conversion. If it is less than 50 cents, you just ignore it. If it's more, you report it on your 8606 and pay taxes on it.
If it is still in the traditional IRA, either do another tiny Roth conversion or leave it there until you do next year's Backdoor Roth IRA process. Either is fine. If you were smart and just used a money market fund and did the conversion as soon as your IRA provider allowed it (usually less than a week and sometimes as early as the next day), this won't be much money and there won't be much tax due.
Step 3 Error – Forgetting to Do the Conversion
If you forgot to do the conversion step for eight months afterward, it could be a huge gain on which you're unnecessarily paying taxes. No way to fix this one, just pay your “stupid tax” and move on.
Step 4 Error – Forgetting to Invest the Roth IRA Money
Even worse than paying taxes on a huge gain is not getting the gain in the first place because you left the money sitting in cash for months. No way to fix this one either. Your “stupid tax” this time comes in the form of opportunity cost. Just get the money invested ASAP to stop the cash drag. Maybe you even got lucky and the market went down in between contribution and investment so now you get to buy low.
Step 5 Error – The Pro-Rata Rule
Some of the most common questions I get are from people who make a late contribution to a Backdoor Roth IRA. What do I mean by late? You are allowed to make an IRA contribution AFTER the calendar year ends. In fact, you have until Tax Day, usually April 15 unless you get an extension of up to six months. While it is to your advantage to contribute to retirement accounts as quickly as possible so that money can start compounding in a tax-protected way, I understand that we all have lots of good things to do with our money and sometimes this gets pushed back into the next calendar year. All it really does is complicate your paperwork a bit.
For example: if you made your 2023 IRA contribution in April 2024, instead of reporting both the contribution and the conversion on your 2023 taxes, you would report only the contribution there. The conversion would be reported on the taxes for the year you did the conversion, i.e., your 2024 tax return due in April 2025. Your 2023 IRS Form 8606 becomes a little simpler and your 2024 IRS Form 8606 becomes a little more complicated. Not a big deal if you can follow the simple instructions.
What confuses people, however, is the pro-rata rule. This is the rule that says you need to empty your traditional IRA by December 31 of the year you do the conversion. Since these folks have never filled out a Form 8606 (or apparently read the instructions), they assume that for a 2023 contribution they need to have a balance of $0 at the end of 2023, even if they didn't do the conversion step until 2024. That's simply not the case. The pro-rata rule isn't applied until the year of the conversion, i.e., December 31, 2024.
Emptying the IRAs
How do you empty those IRAs? You usually have two choices.
- Do a Roth conversion of the whole thing. This is what I generally recommend for small IRAs where the tax bill on the conversion would not be too onerous. It is quick and easy, and it increases the amount of tax-free assets you have.
- Roll the money into a 401(k) or 403(b), either that of your current employer, that of a past employer, or to your own individual 401(k) if you are self-employed. This is usually a better option if you have a large IRA where you would rather deal with the hassle than pay the tax bill during your peak earnings years.
How large is large and how small is small? It's going to vary by the person and how much disposable cash they have. Most would consider an IRA under $10,000 to be small and an IRA over $100,000 to be large. In between, it's a personal decision as to which would be better for you.
What If You Didn't Empty the IRA?
What if you screwed this one up? Your Backdoor Roth IRA conversion step just got pro-rata'd. There is a tax bill associated with that because most of your conversion was of tax-deferred money rather than post-tax money like it was supposed to be.
The fix for this is going to vary by the individual, but the easiest fix is to simply convert the entire IRA to a Roth IRA now, so you end up getting all your post-tax money into that Roth IRA. Another possible fix is to figure out a way to separate your basis in that IRA, roll the tax-deferred money into a 401(k), and then convert the basis left behind in the IRA.
Do yourself a favor and just empty the darn IRA by December 31. Keep in mind that this is usually not an instantaneous process, so don't put it off until you're on holiday break at the end of the year.
Step 6 Error – Screwing Up the Tax Forms
Both individual taxpayers and professional tax preparers screw up IRS Form 8606 all the time. In fact, some of them haven't even heard of a Backdoor Roth IRA. (Incidentally, this is one of the best questions to ask while interviewing a potential tax professional—”How many Backdoor Roth IRAs did you help last year?”)
The usual fix to this error is to file a 1040X (Amended Tax Return) and a new Form 8606. You can do this for the last three years if necessary. If you didn't file Form 8606 at all, you'll definitely want to do this. The key is to check lines 15c and 18 on Form 8606. They should both be a number very close to zero if the form is being completed correctly.
The tax preparer should NOT be filing Form 5439. If you did Steps 1-5 right, this form probably doesn't belong in your tax return.
A lot of people wonder about the 1099-R sent to them by their IRA provider and worry that it was done wrong and that it will cause them to pay taxes they shouldn't have to pay. Sometimes the form was filled out wrong, but mostly this is just a lot of anxiety. What gets people anxious is finding something on Line 2a “Taxable amount.” As long as the box on Line 2b is also checked “Taxable amount not determined,” you're golden. Don't worry about it. If it is not, have the IRA provider send you a new, correct form—either with $0 in 2a or the box in 2b checked (usually the latter). Here's what mine from a few years back looked like from Vanguard:
Note that Box 2b is checked, even though a taxable amount of $5,500.07 is being reported to the IRS.
Again, if you're not sure how to enter this into TurboTax, check out my TurboTax tutorial.
Still Confused About the Backdoor Roth?
Need more help with a Backdoor Roth IRA? I wish Congress would just lift the rule against direct Roth IRA contributions for high earners and save us all this hassle, but who knows if that will ever happen.
- If you made your contribution after the end of the year, check out Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA.
- Here's a step-by-step tutorial for doing a Backdoor Roth IRA at Vanguard.
- Here's a step-by-step tutorial for doing a Backdoor Roth IRA at Fidelity.
- Here is a step-by-step tutorial reporting the Backdoor Roth IRA in TurboTax.
- Here is my prior post on 17 Ways to Screw Up Your Backdoor Roth IRA.
- You can hire a professional to help you—either a good financial advisor or a good tax strategist can assist.
- You can also ask your peers for help on the WCI Forum, the Private WCI Facebook Group, and the WCI Subreddit.
Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA
While it is “cleaner” to make your contribution and your conversion all in the same calendar tax year, you can make your contribution up until your tax filing date of the next year. The key to filling out the 8606 correctly when you make a contribution after the calendar year is to recognize that the contribution step is reported for the tax year and the conversion step is reported for the calendar year. So imagine you did the following during the calendar year 2023:
- Made a 2022 IRA contribution (reported on 2022 8606)
- Did a Roth conversion of that contribution (reported on 2023 8606)
- Made a 2023 IRA contribution (reported on 2023 8606)
- Did a Roth conversion of that contribution (reported on 2023 8606)
Your forms would look like this:
2022 Form 8606 (Only Have to Fill Out Part I)
Note that all this serves to do is report basis for the next year. No tax is due. Since no conversion step was done during the calendar year 2022, you only have to fill out lines 1-3 and 14.
2023 Form 8606 (Must Fill Out Parts I and II)
Note that you've got to do all of Part I plus Part II for this year because you did the conversion step, unlike last year (2022). Let's go through this line by line.
Form 8606 – Part I
- Line 1 – That's the money you contributed for 2023 (which would be $6,500).
- Line 2 – This is your basis. Since you made a contribution for 2022 but didn't do a conversion until 2023, your basis is $6,000.
- Line 3 – $6,500 + $6,000 = $12,500.
- Line 4 – Remember this is asking about 2024, not 2023, and since you won't make the mistake of doing your contribution late again, this will be zero.
- Line 5 – $12,500 – $0 = $12,500.
- Line 6 – This is the line that triggers the pro-rata issue. Even though you made a 2022 contribution, you did so AFTER December 31, so this line would still be zero if you filled it out for 2022, which you didn't because you didn't do a conversion in 2022 and got to skip lines 4-13. But this is the 2023 form and since you converted your entire traditional IRA, this will be $0.
- Line 7 – This doesn't include conversions. Since you didn't take any money out of your traditional IRA this year except the conversion, this is $0.
- Line 8 – You converted a total of $12,500 this year to a Roth IRA, so $12,500.
- Line 9 – $0 + $0 + $12,500 = $12,500.
- Line 10 – $12,500/$12,500 = 1.
- Line 11 – $12,500 * 1 = $12,500.
- Line 12 – $0 * 1 = $0.
- Line 13 – $12,500 + $0 = $12,500.
- Line 14 – $12,500 – $12,500 = $0.
- Line 15a – $0 – $0 = $0.
- Line 15b – You didn't take money out of an IRA to help you survive a disaster, so $0.
- Line 15c – $0 – $0 = $0.
Part II
- Line 16 – Line 8 is $12,500 so $12,500.
- Line 17 – Line 11 is $12,500 so $12,500.
- Line 18 – $12,500 – $12,500 = $0.
Backdoor Roth IRA FAQs
Can I still do a Backdoor Roth IRA for last year?
You have until tax day (generally April 15, but as late as October 15 if you file an extension) of the following year to make your traditional IRA contribution. There is no deadline for the Roth conversion step; it can be done at anytime. Make sure you fill out the paperwork properly according to the section above about late contributions.
Can I do last year's IRA contribution and this year's IRA contribution at the same time and convert them at the same time?
Yes. Just remember to report last year's contribution on last year's Form 8606 and this year's contribution and the conversion on this year's Form 8606.
Does my 401(k), 403(b), 457(b), Roth IRA, or inherited IRA count toward the pro-rata calculation?
No. Only traditional IRAs, rollover IRAs, SEP-IRAs, and SIMPLE IRAs count. See line 6 of Form 8606 for details.
What if it is a separate IRA? Does it still count?
Yes. All IRAs count toward the pro-rata calculation.
What should I do with my rollover or traditional IRA to avoid pro-ration?
If it is small, convert it to a Roth IRA along with this year's traditional IRA contribution and pay the tax due on it. If large, try to roll it into your employer's 401(k) or if you have self-employment income, into your individual 401(k).
I got pro-rated. What now?
The easiest solution is to convert the entire IRA, SEP-IRA, or SIMPLE IRA that caused the pro-ration and is now composed of both pre-tax and after-tax money. That is also the most expensive solution. A harder solution that may save you some taxes involves isolating the basis in that IRA by rolling the rest of the account into a 401(k) and then convert just the basis to a Roth IRA.
I am leaving my employer. Should I roll my 401(k) or 403(b) into a traditional IRA? If not, what should I do with it?
If you put it into a traditional IRA it is going to cause any future Backdoor Roths to be pro-rated. Better options include leaving it where it is; rolling it into your new employer's 401(k) or 403(b); rolling it into your individual 401(k); or, if it is small, just converting the whole thing to a Roth IRA.
How much can I contribute to a Roth IRA via the Backdoor Roth IRA process?
In 2024, you are allowed to contribute $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) per year for you and $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) for your spouse. This includes all contributions to traditional and Roth IRAs. Rollovers/transfers do not count toward the annual contribution limit.
What should I invest the money into?
While in the traditional IRA for a day or two, leave it in cash. Once it is in the Roth IRA, invest it according to your written investing plan. If you don't have one, get one, but in the meantime it would be a good idea to put it into a lifecycle fund such as a Vanguard Target Retirement Fund.
Can I use the same traditional and Roth IRA each year or do I need new ones?
You can use the same ones each year.
The Backdoor Roth IRA process leads to more tax-free retirement account money for doctors and other high-income professionals. If you follow the simple steps outlined above, you will pay less in taxes, boost your returns, facilitate your estate planning, and increase your asset protection. Most members of The White Coat Investor community do these every year, and you should too.
What do you think? Are you doing Backdoor Roth IRAs? Why or why not? Any questions about it?
[This updated post was originally published in 2014.]
Since I’m not part of another pension plan, at the moment & my income is above the ROTH limits. Can I make a Contribution to an IRA that is considered Deductible and convert to a ROTH, thereby, making my original contribution to an IRA non-deductible?
I only hear about making non-deductible IRA contributions prior to conversion to a ROTH…
It’s basically the same. If you get the deduction, and then do a conversion, the tax due is exactly the same as if you didn’t get the deduction and then did a conversion.
What If I’m from a relatively low income. And thus could benefit from the Saver’s Credit. Is it possible to count the T-IRA as a deduction. Rollover. And then reduce the income tax penalty from the rollover via Saver’s credit?
NVM, I did some of the math and decided it doesn’t make a difference. Before, I had this idea that I could increase the total amount of taxes I could owe by doing the conversion. And then use the Saver’s credit to make it so that I don’t owe those additional taxes. But after doing it on paper, the amount of total taxes owed doesn’t change when doing the conversion.
Yes. And you mean conversion, not rollover.
I am opening new Vanguard IRA accounts to do the backdoor Roth-IRA. would like to contribute the max for me and my wife. what’s the proper way to do that? open two different sets of accounts (one traditional and one Roth for each of us, contribute and convert)? is there a way to have joint IRA accounts?
No, all retirement accounts are individual. You’ll need 4 total accounts to do backdoor Roths for each of you. Sorry the government has made this so complicated.
sounds good. I just opened all 4 accounts for us with Vanguard. Do you have any suggestions regarding investment strategies, which funds to pick, etc? I just setup these IRAs and a solo-401K so wanted to started learning about the different options for these accounts.
Thank you!
First set your goals, then your asset allocation, then choose funds to match your allocation. Don’t try to jump to step 3. If you insist, choose a well-rounded, simple solution like Life Strategy Moderate Fund until you figure out what you want to do for the long run.
Thank you for your website- it’s been a tremendous help. Can you clear up my questions?
In September 2014, I had a $10800 defined benefit plan payout, and will owe taxes on it. I had it sent directly to a rollover IRA at Fidelity. I then opened a Roth converted the rollover IRA to a Roth, also at Fidelity. (My income is above the limit to open a Roth, but understand there is no income limit on conversions.) There is now a zero balance in the rollover IRA. I understand I’ll still pay taxes on the $10,800 this year.
Now, in December 2014, I’d like to open a traditional IRA and fund it with $5500 after tax dollars, and then immediately convert that to a Roth IRA. Given a recent cash event, I’d then like to do the same thing in January 2015 to get $11,000 into a Roth. I would like to do it for my husband, too (who doesn’t have the complicating rollover IRA).
Questions: Is is problematic to do a traditional back door Roth in the same year as I did the rollover conversion given that the first conversion was of pre-tax dollars, and the second would be of post-tax dollars? Am I better off waiting until 1/2015 to begin the normal backdoor process for me? Does it matter when I do it for my husband? (We file jointly.)
And either way, when I do this, I understand I need to open another IRA as the first one was a rollover IRA, and this one is not a rollover. When I open that, can I then convert it to another (second) Roth account, or do I convert it into the existing Roth IRA (the one I did in September 2014)? I’d prefer to have it all in one Roth account, but worried that the paperwork would be more difficult if I co-mingle the source dollars.
I very much appreciate your help. Many thanks.
First, you won’t owe taxes on the “payout” because it wasn’t a payout, it was a transfer to a rollover IRA. No taxes due.
Second, you will owe taxes on the conversion, those will be due on your 2014 taxes.
Third, there should be no issue doing a backdoor Roth for 2014 or 2015 (and you can do it in either year if you can’t manage it by year end) in the same year as this transfer. The key is to have a traditional/rollover/SEP/SIMPLE IRA balance on December 31, 2014 of $0. Your husband’s backdoor Roth is completely separate as you must fill out an 8606 for each of you.
Fourth, you probably need a second traditional IRA account (check with the company though, you may not.) You shouldn’t need a second Roth IRA. Just transfer the money into the existing one.
This question may have already asked and I apologize in advance if it repetitive.
The husband has a SEP with a large amount and the wife has a small traditional IRA. The wife wants take advantage of the backdoor conversion. She has a six figure salary from her employment. Is the husband’s SEP required to be considered part of the total traditional SEP and IRA for previous untaxed accounts. Just want clarification if we can only pay taxes on the wife’s small traditional IRA only and do the backdoor conversion to the wife’s Roth IRA.
Thanks!
No, IRAs are separate. My tax forms include two 8606s, one for me and one for my wife. Yours will be the same. So if you don’t want to convert the SEP and have nowhere to roll it, you can still do a spousal backdoor Roth IRA.
Thank you very much!
After reading your book on the S corp and the cash distributions to the individual, you stated that the cash distribution would be treated as a dividend. Did you mean ordinary dividend or qualified dividend? What I gathered from your book is that you were referring to an ordinary dividend. Could you please tell my why it would not be a qualified dividend? Turbo Tax implies that it could be called a qualified dividend. I have not been able to find anything to dispute that implication. Qualified dividends are taxed at a much lower rate than ordinary dividends. Thank you very much for your time and attention.
It is an ordinary dividend. Not my rules. It’s not qualified because the IRS says it isn’t qualified. We can speculate as to why, but that’s the rule. Sorry. If TurboTax says that, it’s wrong.
Actually, if you want to get really technical, it’s a distribution and not a dividend at all. Read here for details:
https://www.scorporationsexplained.com/how-are-s-corporation-dividends-taxed.htm
But bottom line is it is passed through to your individual return and taxed at your ordinary rates, not the lower qualified dividend rate. All you save on S corp dividends/distributions is the payroll taxes.
If my spouse has a rollover IRA will that have a tax impact on a backdoor Roth contribution under my name? I assume it would only impact a backdoor Roth contribution in her name?
No, it won’t affect you. Two separate 8606s.
Via email:
I’m new to the IRA game but plan on contributing and converting from now on. My question with Roth IRAs is if someone at vanguard (or the like) is actively managing accounts or do I have to move things around with the market changes? Are there fees being withdrawn within the accounts to pay people to manage?
Next question: I had a financial advisor recommend a private company to manage my 401k through my government job. They charge 2% per year to manage which comes out of my pocket since they can’t touch the TSP money. I have no stock market knowledge so his idea was for me to pay someone who does. But it’s getting costly for me at 2% as it grows so I’m asking if this private company is even necessary to manage my TSP or is it reasonable To place the account or cruise control with a life fund that automatically adjusts based on the retirement track I put it on?
Any help with this would be appreciated. Love this site!
1) A Roth IRA is a type of investment account. After funding the Roth, you must also select an investment. Mutual funds are managed by a professional. Passively managed mutual funds are managed to match an index of some type and match the market. Actively managed funds try (with little long term success) to beat the market. If you pick your own individual securities within the Roth IRA, you are essentially your own manager. Mutual funds do have “fees” called expense ratios. At Vanguard, those are very low and automatically taken out of the investment, which is in the Roth IRA. It might be literally $10 a year for a $10,000 investment.
2) That’s a ridiculously high fee. Especially when it’s to monkey around market timing the TSP funds. Not only is it not necessary, it’s a bad idea. Put the account on autopilot, either with the lifecycle funds or a combination of the funds you design yourself.
If you need an advisor, you can get one for as little as 0.3-0.8% a year, or as little as $1000 per year as a flat fee.
Good Day WCI,
Let me first start by saying what a blessing discovering this blog has become.
My wife and I are both 3rd year residents. I was hoping to get some advice about our currently very humble but ambitious retirement accounts. We were both clients of GL Advisor since med school graduation in 2012. We blindly maxed out all retirement accounts possible since the start of residency and have followed all of their recommendations without question. I recently received a letter from TD Ameritrade telling me that GL was no longer one of their partners and I should contact them immediately as our money was currently in Limbo. I contacted them to try and get our traditional and Roth IRAs transferred to Vanguard but was informed that 20k of my money had gone into a traditional IRA (which I blindly signed off on without fully realizing what I was doing) and I had 1k in a Roth. 15k out of the 20 k in the Traditional was Post-tax money that was initially in a Roth but converted to a Traditional for an unknown reason by my GL adviser. I was eventually able to get a hold of my adviser and he informed me that the CEO of GL Advisor is currently going to jail for fraud charges and one of their GL funds was actually a Ponzi scheme that was funneling money to the CEO. He informed me that he and most of his colleagues were no longer working with GL and that I should immediately close all my accounts with them. Sorry for that long story, but I know many residents/fellows are clients of GL Advisor and would like to know of the recent developments as GL is apparently not trying to reach out to clients about this. My question is, how do I go about getting all of my money at TD Ameritrade into a Roth in one account so I can transfer to Vanguard and start “fresh”. My wife’s 11k is already only in a Roth so this will be easy on her part. We have also been maxing out our 403b at the hospital so we will eventually have to transfer that in as well after residency. I would hate to pay taxes on money that was already taxed before and I am hoping that there is a backdoor option to get the money back in. I also would like to get this done this year before our tax brackets increase as my wife is graduating in June and our income will quickly rise above 250k with my moonlighting and her attending job.
Thanks again for any help and recommendations and thanks again for the information on this blog!
I’d start filling out the paperwork at Vanguard. They’ll transfer everything over. Once it’s over, you can convert your traditional to a Roth. I’m unsure of how much this will cost you in taxes, but that’s really the question and you didn’t provide enough info to answer it.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/openaccount
Transferring IRAs is no big deal.Sorry to hear about the situation with GL advisor. I believe that was an issue with their fund and not necessarily anything else you might have been invested in. Were you invested in that fund?
Sorry for not providing enough info. My wife and I have no kids and make about 110k between us. We were only able to get 6k each into the 403b at our hospital for 2014 (we started the 403b at the end of 2014 and they won’t let us write a check to max it out for the calendar year) and otherwise put the $5500 each into Roths for 2014. My wife’s 5500 is still in a Roth at TD but mine was converted to the traditional. I don’t believe any of our money was invested in the specific fund that got GL in trouble. I probably just need to find a CPA to discuss what the exact tax ramifications would be for 2014 to convert the entire 20k from the traditional to a Roth for 2014. I can then just start doing the Backdoor for us every year according to your instructions. Are there any CPAs that you can recommend? Thanks for your advice.
I don’t have a list of recommended CPAs, sorry. You’re the second person to ask today though. Maybe I’ll start working on it. Your tax ramifications are probably $20K*25%+ your state tax rate, or a little over $5K to do the conversion.
apologies if this was explained, or too simple.
for the 8606 for 2013 – you made a 5500 nondeductible traditional IRA contribution in 1/2014 for 2013; then you converted to a Roth a few days later, in 1/2014. Then why is line 4 0 and not 5500? what am I missing?
It should be $5500 as near as I can tell. Did I say it wasn’t somewhere?
Thanks for your reply – the 8606 form that you filled out and scanned looks like line 4 is $0. I don’t understand why, I thought it would be $5500 (since you made the contribution for 2013 in January of 2014, which is included on line 1).
I assume that I am missing something obvious.
thanks
Yes. I made the 2013 contribution in January 2013, not 14.
ok, thanks. we did it differently, made it more complicated/confusing – the 2013 contribution was made in 2014, then converted. the 8606 numbers are a little different (since we made the 2014 contribution in 2015), but the end result (line 15 and line 18) is the same, unless I am still missing something.
you have a good book and website – i suggest it to the med students and residents with whom i interact.
You’re right, it’s just a little more complex the way you do it, but the end result is the same.
If you made the contributions in Feb 2015 for 2014 , then Line 1 and Line 4 should each be $5500. Line 5 should be zero. How do you figure the math for Line 10 – Divide Line 5 by Line 9? 0/5500? And the lines onward from Line 10?
Just to confirm – The Form 8606 is being done in the next tax year?
I have been staring at Turbo Tax too long so my question may not be clear or my math incorrect.
Any word on a rule change for 2015 that requires you to hold the $5500 in the non deductible ira for a year before being allowed to convert to a Roth? A financial planner mentioned this to me but I haven’t been able to find any information to verify that and I hope it’s not true. Thanks!
While that might be a good idea to avoid any issues with the Step Doctrine, it certainly isn’t a rule. I converted mine the next day again this year, as I have for the last 5.
I am confused about the first step about moving money out of iras.
I just started my first attending job but don’t qualify for the groups 403b until after a year. Luckily I still am per diem at my fellowship hospital and they allow me to contribute to my 403b still. i have a fidelity account that has my old 403b from residency (can’t contirbute) in it as one account, an old roth ira account which i can’t contribute to anymore because I make too much, and i just opened a traditional ira and put 5500 in today for 2014.
Can I make the traditional IRA into a backdoor roth still if I contributed today and not in 2014? Also I’m confused about step one. Would I have to move my two other accounts the roth ira and the 403b from fidelty to my active 403b in transamerica before I could convert the traditional to roth?
What is the fidelity account with the old 403b. Is it a 403B or an IRA? If it’s an IRA, you’ve got to do something with it. Yes, you can convert a traditional IRA at any time. Step one is contribute to an IRA. You already did that, no? No, 403(b)s and Roths don’t count against you in the pro-rata calculation. Take a look at the 8606.
In my fidelity account i have both roth IRA and a 403b in fidelity both which I was contributing to when I was in residency. Should I move that 403b into the roth IRA as well? Now as an attending I opened a traditional IRA (which I’m going to changeto back door) and have an active 403b which I continue to contribute to. My understanding is that both roth and 403b don’t count toward the pro-rata so I can go ahead and roll over the traditional now.
That’s right. Whether or not you want to convert the 403B is a totally separate question. I think it’s a good idea to do it in the year you finish residency, but I suspect you missed that deadline, no?
I appreciate you taking time to educate and answer questions. I contributed $11,000 to IRA in March 2014 and converted to Roth IRA for 2013 and 2014. Do I need to amend my Tax return for Roth IRA conversion for 2013 before filing for 2014? What do I need to do to amend? Thanks!
The IRA contribution for 2013 goes on the 2013 taxes. The IRA contribution for 2014 goes on the 2014 taxes. The conversion goes on 2014 taxes. If that isn’t what you did, you need to amend something, probably your 2013 taxes.
What if I have several inherited IRAs? Can I still get money into a Roth IRA? I am required to take RMDs from these accounts each year. I will not be able to roll these into any 401K or anything like that.
Inherited IRAs don’t count against you on the 8606.
Turns out, I have an old IRA from 16 or so years ago that I haven’t touched in the same amount of time. It has a balance of about $300. Do I need to roll this over to a 401K before I can open a new IRA, fund it, then convert it for 2014? I presume it’s already too late since the balance was there at the end of 2014. What do you suggest I do this year and for subsequent years?
It’s not too late since you didn’t do the conversion last year. Just contribute your $5500 for 2014 before April, convert it and convert the entire old IRA. Voila-no issue with the pro-rata calculation.
Looks like the 2016 budget proposes to close the back door:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/president-obamas-2016-budget-targets-retirement-accounts-2015-02-05?page=1
I’m not sure why people worry about a budget proposed by a president whose party controls neither house of Congress, especially when said Congress hasn’t passed a budget in years. I’d worry if it was Putin proposing it, but not Obama. Remember last year’s budget proposal? Nope, didn’t think so. But it generated just as much worrying as this year’s I assure you.
Thanks WCI!
I have yet to do my 2014 taxes.
As of Jan 31 2014, I have:
1) a Vanguard Roth for me (I’m an NP)
2) a Vanguard Roth for my husband (MD)
3) his 401K
4) a Vanguard traditional IRA with very little money (which I rolled my previous 401K of $2,000 into and added $1,000)***
Am I too late to do the backdoor rollover into Roth for 2014? If I roll it over, can I roll it over into our existing Roth IRAs?
– If I’m not too late, I would:
A) Open a traditional IRA for hubby
B) Contribute another few K into my traditional IRA ($4,500?)
C) Roll each over to our respective Roths
The deadline for 2014 IRA contributions is April 15. There is no deadline for conversions. Rollovers are different from contributions. You each get $5500 per year toward IRAs.
If I were you, I’d contribute another $4500 for 2014 plus $5500 for 2015 into your traditional IRA. Then I’d convert the whole thing (transfer it from the traditional IRA to his Roth IRA.) It’ll cost you something like $800 in taxes. I’d then open a traditional IRA for your husband, contribute $5500 for 2014 and $5500 for 2015, and then transfer is all to his Roth. If you’re concerned about the Step Doctrine, wait a few months after the contributions to do the conversions.
Thank you. The thing that I’m not clear about is how to handle the $2000+ money that I rolled over from my 401K into the traditional IRA (in addition to the $1000 that I directly contributed in opening that account.)… any ideas?
I’d convert it to the Roth. I’d move the tax-deferred money over with the after-tax money and pay the taxes on it.
Hi again. Sorry I’m not so tax literate.
A) Do I need to roll the tax deferred $2,000ish out of the traditional IRA first or am I too late and subject to Pro Rata anyways?
B) Because I didn’t do step 1 by December 31, 2014 and am subject to pro-rata, does that mean that I should only do the Roth conversion for myself for the $3,000ish total in my account to wipe it clean and call it a year, or can I go ahead and do a full 5,500 for myself and my husband even though I’m subject to pro rata on that $2,000ish? (AKA, is this tax year screwed due to pro rata implication and should I just try again next year after clearing out my traditional?)
C) OR even though I’m late, should I roll the $2,000ish pre-tax 401K portion of my traditional IRA into hubby’s 401K before I submit my taxes for 2014? (Am I too late for step 1?)
D) Will this extra $2,000ish be really difficult to report on turbotax?
You can still make IRA contributions for 2014 until April 15, 2015.
You can either convert the pre-tax $2K, or roll it into a 401(k) if you have one that will take a rollover. You can’t roll your IRA into your husband’s 401(k) though.
It’s not that big a deal to do it on Turbotax. See Harry Sit’s link in the main article.
how will 2014 8606 look like if you convert in 2015? thanks
how will 2014 8606 look like if you convert in 2015? I made regular roth contributions in 2014 and now I see I am not qualified. I need to defund 2014 Roth then open regular ira, move money from regular to roth and then file 8606, correct? I am having problems with 8606 though because I am converting in 2015
What problem specifically are you having with 8606? Have you worked through the form following the instructions and now have a question about what to put on a specific line?
well, I have 5500 is 1 and 0 in 2 and consequently 5500 in 3. then it asks if in 2014 I made a roth conversion. my answer is no as I am doing a roth conversion in 2015. If the answer is no, then it says my amount from 3 (5500) becomes my amount in 14 which becomes 5500 while you are saying it should be 0. I am confused…
Also, I called Vanguard and opened regular non deductible IRA. They are moving 5500 out of roth along with the earnings into traditional. They said I could call on Tuesday and move the $$ back to Roth and they said I will have to pay taxes on earnings a year from now. They said I have to file a recategorization now. Is it also 8606?
I am afraid I am much more confused now.
Ultimately, I do fund roth in the beginning of the year not knowing whether I would qualify or not. It’s a coin toss in my case. I just need to figure out the process of how to defund it if needed and what exact tax steps I should take.
I will much appreciate any advice. Thank you!
If you made your 2014 contribution in 2015, it should look like this:
1 5500
2 0
3 5500
4 5500
5 0
6 0
7 0
8 0
9 0
10 1
11 0
12 0
13 0
14 5500
15 0
Does that help?
If you’re not sure if you’ll be able to do your Roth contributions directly or not, better to do them through the backdoor. That avoids having to do a recharacterization. Learn more about recharacterizations here: https://www.irs.gov/Retirement-Plans/Retirement-Plans-FAQs-regarding-IRAs-Recharacterization-of-Roth-Rollovers-and-Conversions
I made my contributions in early 2014 which makes copying and pasting your original example of 8606 impossible because it was all done in different years. Thank you for the “revised” form. This is exactly what I have! But it makes my next year total basis 11000 (5500 from line 14 now and 5500 from line two in next year form), right. The end result or the same form for next year should look the same with zero overall except 5500 will be replaced with 1100, no?
Thank you very much for the reference. I will read it right away. I think what you are saying is that in my situation I should not be playing a guessing game but rather do a backdoor each year, correct? The problem for now is that I already made my 2015 contribution for roth. Should I sell and do a back door?
At this point you can just wait and see, then recharacterize if it looks like a good income year.
You shouldn’t have a basis of $11K next year because you converted the first $5500. It’s no longer “basis in a traditional or SEP IRA.”
Jim, you may have answered this previously but I reread all your Backdoor Roth posts and couldn’t find it. I made IRA contributions for 2012 and 2013 of $5,000 and $5,500 for my wife but forgot to convert them through the Backdoor before 12/31/13 (I did convert mine in time), I did it in January 2014. So for our 2014 Form 8606 mine is just like your example, but her’s is different, I think? On 12/31/14 her total in traditional IRAs was zero, but the amount converted is $16,000 (including her 2014 contribution).
I think that makes the whole form complicated? Can I tell my accountant to go back and amend the two prior years for the conversions and keep this year simple? Sorry if these are pretty dumb questions. As always, thanks for what you do.
No, if you did the conversion in 2014, you have to report it on 2014 taxes. Work through the 8606 instructions and you’ll probably figure it out. If you have a question about a specific line, let me know.
Just wanted to say thanks so much for the very detailed information regarding setting up the accounts initially and then the links to find step by step filing guides for turbo tax and h&R Block. Saved me a mistake/headache! I was able to follow each step and get everything set up and converted and then get my taxes prepared without an issue!
You’re welcome.
The 8606 instructions state that part 1 should not be completed for recharacterizations. Is there a reason you still do?
Finally, what happens if the value drops after conversion, e.g. from $5500 to 5499. Do you report the negative value or zero?
1) I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I don’t do recharacterizations. That isn’t part of the usual backdoor Roth IRA process. That’s for when you accidentally put money in a Roth directly and need to recharacterize it to a traditional because you make too much.
2) After conversion, you shouldn’t have to report anything on the 8606. You mean before conversion?
This is a truly awesome site. The topic of backdoor Roth conversions slightly confuses me as to the mechanics of this so here is my situation and hopefully you can advise. I am 44, and have a Roth IRA which I have been unable to fund for years because of too high income: the current value is $6,900. I also have a traditional IRA which is worth $13,950 and in addition have 2 other rollover IRAs which are collectively worth $850,000. My wife is not working and has no earned income but does have a traditional IRA worth approximately $6,000 as well and I have not recently attempted to fund the Roth because of the idea that my income was too high to qualify for the “front door” traditional method. Please forgive my obtuseness if it may seem that way but is there any sense in my attempting to use the backdoor method to make Roth contributions? Because of the prorata issue, would I have to convert just the $13,950 traditional IRA to a Roth and pay taxes on this alone or would I have to convert the other rollover IRAs? Any information you can give me would be appreciated and thank you very much in advance.
You’d have to convert it all. That’s almost surely not an option with an $850K IRA. You might be able to use an existing 401(k) or open an Individual 401(k) and roll it over though. If not, it’s pretty hard to recommend doing it.
Thank you very much for your prompt response. On perhaps a related note, can you advise me how to find an advisor who might help me evaluate my overall financial retirement situation for a reasonable rate? My accountant seems unsure about the validity of these retirement strategies and it seems like hiring a tax lawyer would be unnecessarily complicated and expensive. I live in NJ.
Your accountant is “unsure” about the backdoor Roth IRA? I can understand someone being cautious about the Step Doctrine (so wait a few months or a year between contribution and conversion), but to not do it at all? Bizarre. And you certainly don’t need a tax lawyer to do it. I’ve written before about choosing advisers here:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/investing/what-you-need-to-know-about-financial-advisers-2/
I also keep a list of recommended advisors here, most are paid advertisers on the blog: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/financial-advisors/