By Dr. Jim Dahle, WCI Founder
Setting up a Backdoor Roth IRA can be confusing, so I thought I’d put together a tutorial on the steps people can refer to when they go through this process. Let's get started.
Table of Contents
- What Is a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- Who Should Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- When to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA?
- Backdoor Roth IRA Pros and Cons
- Backdoor Roth IRA Tax Implications
- Backdoor Roth IRA Steps
- How to Fix and Prevent Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
- Backdoor Roth IRA FAQs
What Is a Backdoor Roth IRA?
Despite its name, a Backdoor Roth IRA is not an account; it is a process with two steps:
- Contribute to a Traditional IRA.
- Complete a Roth conversion.
If you understand the rules of both of these steps, putting them together is no problem.
Who Should Do a Backdoor Roth IRA
Remember that if you are a low earner you can just contribute DIRECTLY to a Roth IRA and skip this Backdoor Roth IRA process.
Roth IRA Limits and Conversion Rules
Low earner is defined as a Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) under a phaseout range in 2024 of $146,000-$161,000 ($230,000-$240,000 Married Filing Jointly). Some docs—like residents, employee dentists, part-timers, and even some medical attendings in the lower-paying specialties who are married to a non-earner—can just contribute to a Roth IRA directly.
Anyone who earns at least $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) can contribute $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) to an IRA [2024]. If your income is below a MAGI of $146,000-$161,000 ($230,000-$240,000 Married Filing Jointly), you can contribute directly to a Roth IRA. If you have a retirement plan offered to you at work and your MAGI is below $77,000-$87,000 ($123,000-$143,000 Married Filing Jointly), you can deduct your traditional IRA contributions. Since most readers of this blog have a retirement plan through their job and have (or soon will have) a MAGI over $240,000, they will find that they can't make direct Roth IRA contributions or deduct their traditional IRA contributions. Thus, their best IRA option is the Backdoor Roth IRA process, i.e., an indirect Roth IRA contribution.
Spousal IRAs
Married physicians should be using a personal and a spousal Roth IRA, and you will usually need to fund both indirectly (i.e., through the Backdoor). This provides an additional $7,000 each ($8,000 for each spouse that is 50+) of tax-protected and (in most states) asset-protected space per tax year, and it allows for more tax diversification in retirement. Tax diversification allows you to determine your own tax rate as a retiree by deciding how much to take from tax-deferred (traditional) accounts and how much from tax-free (Roth) accounts. Remember that IRA stands for INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangement, so even if the pro-rata rule (discussed below) keeps you from doing the Backdoor Roth IRA, it doesn't necessarily keep your spouse from doing so. Each spouse reports their Backdoor Roth IRA on their own separate 8606, so the tax return for a married couple doing Backdoor Roth IRAs should always include two Form 8606s.
Married Filing Separately
The contribution and deduction income limits are particularly low if you are filing your taxes Married Filing Separately (MFS). Both the ability to contribute directly to a Roth IRA and the ability to deduct a traditional IRA contribution if you (or your spouse) are eligible for a retirement plan at work phase out between $0 and $10,000. Basically, the best option for anyone filing their taxes MFS is the Backdoor Roth IRA process, i.e., an indirect Roth IRA contribution.
There is an exception to these rules if you do not actually live with your spouse. In that case, your ability to contribute directly to a Roth IRA phases out between a MAGI of $146,000-$161,000 in 2024. If you live separately and are not covered by a retirement plan at work, you can deduct a traditional IRA contribution no matter your income. You can still do a Backdoor Roth IRA process in these situations where your IRA contribution is either partially or completely deductible. The tax bill will be precisely the same: $0 when done properly. However, instead of having no tax cost for either the contribution or the conversion, your deduction on the contribution will precisely equal the tax cost on the conversion, resulting in that same $0 tax bill for the entire process.
Mega Backdoor Roth IRA
A Mega Backdoor Roth IRA is completely different from a regular Backdoor Roth IRA. Despite its name, you actually do a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA with a 401(k), not an IRA. It requires a 401(k) that accepts both after-tax (not Roth) employee contributions and allows for either in-service withdrawals (and thus conversions to a Roth IRA) or, more commonly, in-plan conversions. Using the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA process, one could put as much as $69,000 ($76,500 if 50+) [2024] per year into a Roth 401(k) (or possibly a Roth IRA in addition to your usual $7,000-$8.000 contribution). However, this process has nothing to do with the Backdoor Roth IRA process we are discussing in this post.
When to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA
Lots of people wonder about the timing of a Backdoor Roth IRA.
IRA Contribution Deadline
There is really only one deadline to meet with the Backdoor Roth IRA process. IRA contributions for a given tax year must take place between January 1 of the tax year and April 15 (even if you file an extension) of the following year.
Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion Deadline
The conversion step may take place at any time. It can take place the next day or even the same day as the contribution. I don't recommend it, but you can wait months, years, or even decades between the contribution and the conversion step. There is no deadline for Roth conversions. If you need to perform a rollover or a conversion of a traditional, rollover, SEP, or SIMPLE IRA in order to avoid the pro-rata rule, you have until December 31 of the year you do the conversion step.
When Should You Contribute and Convert?
You should do both steps as soon as possible. Many white coat investors do the IRA contribution step and the Roth conversion step the first week of January each year. This maximizes the amount of tax-free compounding that can occur on those dollars. Minimizing the time between contribution and conversion and doing both steps within the calendar year is not required, but it certainly simplifies the paperwork.
Want to really make your paperwork complicated? Contribute to your IRA each month and convert it each month. Then, you have 12 contributions and 12 conversions to keep track of each year. Seriously, though, if you make enough money that you have to contribute to your Roth IRA(s) through the Backdoor Roth IRA process, you make enough to do it at one time each year.
Can I Do a Backdoor Roth IRA Every Year?
Yes. My wife and I have done one every year since 2010 and do not plan to stop until we no longer have any earned income. It is just one of the investment chores we perform once a year.
5-Year Rule
One factor that may push you to do a Backdoor Roth IRA earlier is the five-year rule. Now, there are at least three five-year rules related to IRAs, but the main one to pay attention to here is the five-year rule after a Roth conversion. This rule determines whether the withdrawal of principal from the account prior to age 59 1/2 will be penalty-free. The five-year period starts on January 1 of the year you do the conversion, so it could be a little less than five years. Roth IRA principal generally comes out tax- and penalty-free (it is only the earnings that may be subject to penalties), but that is only the case after the five-year rule has been fulfilled.
In essence, if you do a conversion of a Roth IRA at age 51, you can then withdraw the principal tax- and penalty-free starting at age 56 rather than age 59 1/2. This can provide funding for living expenses to early retirees. If you do a Roth conversion at age 57, you still get access to that principal (and earnings) tax- and penalty-free at age 59 1/2. So, it's five years or age 59 1/2, whichever comes first.
There is also a completely separate five-year rule on IRA contributions, but this starts from the time you make your very first IRA contribution, not every contribution, so it should not apply to most early retirees.
Backdoor Roth IRA Pros and Cons
There are a lot of great things about the Backdoor Roth IRA, but it isn't all peaches and cream.
Pros of Backdoor Roth IRA
The main benefit of a Backdoor Roth IRA is that it provides you with another retirement account. Via the Backdoor Roth IRA process, you can continue to contribute to a Roth IRA even after your earnings rise above the income limit for direct Roth IRA contributions. Retirement accounts eliminate the tax drag that applies in a taxable, or non-qualified account, reducing your taxes and allowing your investment to grow at a higher rate so you can reach your goals sooner.
How much can that tax protection be worth compared to a taxable account? It depends on the return of the underlying investment, its tax efficiency, and the amount of time the money is left in the account. At my marginal tax rate, $10,000 earning 8% in a tax-inefficient investment over 50 years would grow to $469,000 in a Roth IRA but only $88,000 in a taxable account. More realistically, over 30 years, the use of a Roth IRA vs. a taxable account for a tax-efficient investment would still result in 29% more money.
Retirement accounts ensure simple estate planning. By using beneficiaries, that money does not go through the probate process, so your heirs get it sooner with less hassle, more privacy, and no cost. They can even stretch the tax-protected growth benefit for another decade after they inherit the account. Retirement accounts like a Roth IRA also provide substantial asset protection in most states, meaning that in the admittedly very rare event of a dramatically above-policy limits judgment that isn't reduced on appeal, you can declare bankruptcy and still keep what is in your retirement accounts. Roth money is tax-free forever, so by continuing to contribute each year, you can increase tax diversification in retirement.
Cons of Backdoor Roth IRA
Roth IRAs, even when you contribute via the Backdoor Roth IRA process, are still retirement accounts with all of their downsides. Retirement accounts limit the investments you can put in them and prohibit the use of margin investing. If you withdraw Roth IRA earnings prior to age 59 1/2 without an approved exception, you will owe a 10% penalty.
Due to the pro-rata rule (see below), the Backdoor Roth IRA process requires you to either convert or roll over into a 401(k) any traditional IRAs, SEP-IRAs, and SIMPLE IRAs you may have. If you have self-employment income, you will need to use a solo 401(k) instead of a SEP-IRA to shelter that income from taxes. Doing Backdoor Roth IRAs each year also adds one form (IRS Form 8606) per spouse to your tax return. If preparing your own taxes using tax software, it can be tricky to ensure the software reports the process correctly. If you do a Backdoor Roth IRA instead of (rather than in addition to) maxing out your tax-deferred accounts during your peak earnings years, that can also be a mistake that results in the accumulation of less money.
Perhaps most significantly, there are now two steps to getting money into your Roth IRA each year instead of just one. While I think the process is pretty darn simple, I am continually amazed at all of the unique ways that doctors manage to screw it up. Later in this article, I'll show you how to fix all of those screwups.
Is a Backdoor Roth IRA Worth It?
Yes! Most of the time. It really is just a little bit of hassle to do each year, although there may be some additional hassle the first year if you need to take care of another IRA first to avoid the pro-rata rule. There may be times when someone has a large traditional IRA they cannot afford to convert to a Roth IRA and cannot roll over into a 401(k) because they don't have a 401(k) at all, their 401(k) charges high fees, or because the IRA assets are invested in something they cannot invest in within a 401(k). If your employer-provided retirement account is a SIMPLE IRA or a SEP-IRA, the Backdoor Roth IRA process is also probably not worth it. Finally, some multi-millionaires don't want to bother with even the minor hassle of the Backdoor Roth IRA process because getting an extra $7,000-$16,000 a year into Roth accounts just isn't going to move the needle for them.
Backdoor Roth IRA Tax Implications
Roth IRAs are all about avoiding taxation on earnings, so naturally, there are lots of tax implications of this process.
Pro-Rata Rule
The most important tax implication to be aware of is the pro-rata rule. I would estimate that 90%+ of Backdoor Roth IRA screwups involve the investor having his or her conversion pro-rated. When you report a Roth IRA conversion on IRS Form 8606 (see below), there is a pro-rata calculation made. The numerator is the amount converted. The denominator is the total of ALL traditional, rollover, SEP, and SIMPLE IRAs, but not 401(k)s, 403(b)s, 457(b)s, Roth IRAs, or inherited IRAs. Therefore, it is critical that you DO SOMETHING with any IRA balance you have PRIOR to December 31 of the year in which you do a Roth conversion of after-tax money. Later in this article, I'll describe the exact options you have for what to do with this money.
Tax on Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion
Done properly, there is NO tax on a Backdoor Roth IRA conversion. Zero. Nada. Zilch. While the money you put into a Roth IRA (indirectly via the Backdoor in this case) was taxed when you earned it, it is NOT taxed when you contribute it directly to a Roth IRA or when you contribute it as a non-deductible IRA conversion or when you subsequently convert that money to a Roth IRA. In fact, it is never taxed again.
Do I Need to Worry About the Step Transaction Doctrine?
There used to be a concern that the IRS would have a problem with the Backdoor Roth due to an IRS rule called The Step Transaction Doctrine. This rule basically says that if the sum of a bunch of legal steps is illegal, then you can’t do it. Some wondered if this Backdoor conversion from a Traditional IRA to Roth was a legal transaction considering this doctrine. Those concerns, valid or not, are no longer an issue. The IRS clarified in early 2018 that no waiting period is required between the contribution and conversion steps of the Backdoor Roth IRA. It has essentially given its blessing on the whole process. Waiting just makes things more complicated on the 8606, as discussed in Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA.
How to Report a Backdoor Roth IRA on TurboTax
Reporting the Backdoor Roth IRA properly on TurboTax is unfortunately even more complicated than filling out Form 8606 by hand. The key to doing it right is to recognize that you report the conversion step in the Income section but you report the contribution step in the Deductions and Credits section. Since you generally do the income section first, you report the conversion before you report the contribution, even though you actually did the contribution before the conversion. At the end, you want to look at the Form(s) 8606 that TurboTax generates, just like you would check up on one filled out by an accountant.
More information here:
How to Report a Backdoor Roth IRA on TurboTax
Backdoor Roth IRA Steps, Tutorials, and Walkthroughs
In this section, we'll explain exactly how to do the Backdoor Roth IRA process and how to report it on your tax return, whether you file on paper or using tax software. You can easily walk through these Backdoor Roth IRA steps at Vanguard, complete a Backdoor Roth at Fidelity, or knock out a Backdoor Roth IRA at Schwab, three of the most popular brokerage/mutual fund companies.
How to Perform and Report on Paper the Backdoor Roth IRA Process
While it is really just a two-step process, it is best to think of it as a six-step process. These steps don't all have to be done in order (it might be easier to do Step 3 before Step 1), but they will all need to be done.
Step #1 Contribute to a Traditional IRA
Make a $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) non-deductible traditional IRA contribution for yourself and one for your spouse. You can use the same traditional IRA accounts every year—they just spend most of the time with $0 in them. Most fund companies, including Vanguard, don’t close the account just because there is nothing in it. I do this every January 2.
Step #2 Leave the Money in Cash
An account like a traditional IRA is not an investment, of course; just like a suitcase isn't clothing. When putting money in a traditional IRA, you also have to tell the IRA provider how you want to invest. In this case, just leave the money in cash, whether a money market fund or a settlement fund. At Vanguard, the settlement fund is the Federal Money Market Fund. You really don't want to have any gains (or especially any losses) between the contribution and conversion step because it makes the paperwork more complicated. The best way to minimize the gains is to leave it in cash (and then of course to do the conversion as soon after contribution as possible to minimize the “pennies” issue).
Step #3 Convert the Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA
Next, convert the non-deductible traditional IRA to a Roth IRA by transferring the money from your traditional IRA into your Roth IRA at the same fund company. If you don’t already have a Roth IRA there, you’ll need to open one. This can be done in a minute or two online at Vanguard, and it is essentially the same process as opening the traditional IRA. I do this the very next day after I make the contribution. It is very straightforward. When you transfer the money, the website will throw up a scary banner saying something like “THIS IS A TAXABLE EVENT.” That’s true. It is taxable. But the tax bill will be zero since you’ve already paid taxes on the $7,000 and couldn’t claim your contribution as a deduction because you make too much money. You can do Step 3 basically immediately after Step 1. Some companies will let you do it the same day. Other companies will make you wait until the next day or even a week or so. But there is no reason to wait months to do it.
Step #4 Invest the Money
Now you will need to select an investment for the money in your Roth IRA. If you already have an investment in there, you can simply add $7,000 to it. Otherwise, you will need to select an investment in accordance with your written investing plan. If you do not have a written investing plan yet, you can leave the money in cash or put it into a Target Retirement 2050 fund or another lifecycle fund until you get that part of your financial plan worked out.
Step #5 Beware of the Pro-Rata Rule
Get rid of any SEP-IRA, SIMPLE IRA, traditional IRA, or rollover IRA money. The total sum of these accounts on December 31 of the year in which you do the conversion step (Step 2) must be zero to avoid a “pro-rata” calculation (see line 6 on Form 8606) that can eliminate most of the benefit of a Backdoor Roth IRA.
You can get rid of these IRA accounts in three ways:
- Withdraw the money (not recommended, as the money would be subject to tax and/or penalties, not to mention DECREASING your tax-advantaged/asset-protected investment space).
- Convert the entire sum to a Roth IRA. Only recommended if it is a relatively small amount and you can afford to pay the taxes out of current earnings or taxable investments with relatively high basis.
- Roll the money over into a 401(k), 403(b), or individual 401(k). 401(k)s don’t count in the aforementioned pro-rata calculation. Some physicians even open an individual 401(k) at Fidelity, eTrade, or Vanguard (rollovers from traditional IRAs to solo 401(k)s is a recent addition to Vanguard) in order to facilitate a Backdoor Roth IRA.
Step #6 Fill Out IRS Form 8606 Correctly
The next part of the Backdoor Roth IRA is done months later when you (or your accountant) fill out your IRS Form 8606 on your taxes. Don't forget to do it or there is a $50 penalty. Remember that you need one form for each spouse: INDIVIDUAL Retirement Arrangements. You need to double-check this to make sure it is done right, even if you hire a pro to avoid screwing up this part. Advisors have told me that they have had to help clients fix dozens of these that tax preparers have done improperly. If you don't do it right, you'll pay taxes twice on your Backdoor Roth IRA contribution.
Page 1 (below) shows a “distribution” from your non-deductible IRA. Since the money was already taxed, the taxable amount on your distribution is zero. Line 1 is your non-deductible contribution. On Line 2, your basis is zero because you had no money in a traditional IRA on December 31 of last year (if you've been carrying a non-deductible IRA for years, this may not be zero). Line 6 is zero in a typical year. Note that TurboTax may fill this out a little differently (may leave lines 6-12 blank), but you end up with the same thing. Line 13 is the same as line 3, so the tax due is zero.
Here's an example from the 2023 version of Form 8606.
On page 2 (below), you are showing the Roth conversion. I'm not really sure why you have to do this twice (since you're just transferring the amounts from lines 8 and 11 and then subtracting them), but that's what the form calls for. As you can see, a Roth conversion of a non-deductible traditional IRA contribution without any gains is a taxable event; it's just that the tax bill is zero for it.
When double-checking your tax preparer's work, you want to concentrate on lines 2, 14, 15c, and 18, and make sure they're a very small amount, like zero, and not a very large amount, like $7,000. The form can get more complicated if you are doing other Roth conversions at the same time or if you made a contribution for the previous year (i.e., made your 2022 contribution in 2023). See below for more details.
Notice how there is no place on the form to put the date when you made the contribution or the date when you made the conversion. It isn't on the form your IRA custodian sends to the IRS (1099-R) either.
Do It All Again Next Year
You do not have to wait any period of time between the contribution and conversion. Each year, I make my Traditional IRA contribution on January 2, then convert it to a Roth IRA the next day or within a few days. That gets my investment money working as soon as possible and simplifies the record keeping. Vanguard won’t let you do it the same day (sometimes other providers will), so I have to wait one day anyway. Occasionally they'll make you wait up to a week. If you find you have a few pennies left in the account and are worried you'll get pro-rated, take a look at this post: Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA.
More information here:
How to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA with Vanguard
How to Do a Backdoor Roth IRA at Fidelity
How to Fix and Prevent Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
In this section, we're going to talk about how to fix and prevent common mistakes in the Backdoor Roth IRA process. To better organize these mistakes, we will break down the process into the six very clear steps used above and then will explain possible errors with each step and what to do about them.
6 Steps to Successfully Contribute to a Backdoor Roth IRA
- Step 1 – Contribute to traditional IRA ($7,000, $8,000 if 50+ for 2024).
- Step 2 – Invest the money in a money market fund.
- Step 3 – Move money from a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA (i.e., a Roth conversion).
- Step 4 – Invest in your preferred investment (typically a stock, bond, or balanced index mutual fund).
- Step 5 – Ensure you have no money in a traditional IRA, SEP-IRA, or SIMPLE IRA on December 31 of the year you do the CONVERSION step.
- Step 6 – Report the transactions correctly on your taxes by filling out Form 8606.
Seriously. That's it. If you can do a cholecystectomy, you can do this. If you can work up a pulmonary embolus appropriately, you can do this. If you can manage hypertension well, you can do this. If you can fill a cavity, you can do this. Super easy.
However, people still manage to screw up on EACH of those six steps. Let's go through the mistakes people make, step by step.
How to Fix Backdoor Roth IRA Mistakes
Step 1 Error – Contributing Directly to a Roth IRA
An error that commonly occurs with a first Backdoor Roth IRA is that people simply don't realize that their income is too high to make a direct Roth IRA contribution. Instead of doing it indirectly (i.e., going through the Backdoor), which is no big deal even if you're under the limit, they contribute directly to a Roth IRA. Then they realize their Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) is over $146,000-$161,000 ($230,000-$240,000 Married Filing Jointly) for 2024. Now what?
Enter the Recharacterization
If you have made this error, now you have to recharacterize the Roth IRA contribution to a traditional IRA contribution. This basically makes it as though you never contributed to a Roth IRA but contributed to a traditional IRA instead. You usually have to call your IRA provider to get this done, but it's no big deal. In this section, I'll walk you through the details of how to do it.
You have until the due date of your tax return to do this (including extensions). So, if you made an IRA contribution in January of 2023 for the 2023 tax year, you have until October 15, 2024, to do a recharacterization. There's no penalty or anything to do it. You can do the opposite as well if you contributed to a traditional IRA but meant to contribute directly to a Roth IRA.
Bear in mind that starting in 2018, you can no longer do recharacterizations of Roth CONVERSIONS (not contributions). This eliminated the “Roth IRA Conversion Horserace” technique for tax reduction.
Until only a couple of years ago, I had thought there was a waiting period after a recharacterization to then reconvert the money to a Roth IRA. However, that rule was only for recharacterizations of conversions, not contributions. There has never been a waiting period for a recharacterization.
Any gains that occur before the final conversion are, of course, fully taxable at your ordinary income tax rate in the year of the final conversion.
The Income Limit
The first thing to determine is whether this post even applies to you. If your income is below a certain amount, you can just contribute directly to a Roth IRA. That amount depends on several things. First, it is a MODIFIED Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI). That number is very similar to your Adjusted Gross Income (AGI). Remember how tax Form 1040 works.
The first income line you come to is line 7b, your “Total Income.” When people think about income, this is generally what they think of. The third income line on the form is line 11b. This is your “Taxable Income.” This is what your tax bill is actually calculated from. It is basically your total income minus all of your deductions. In between those two, on line 8b, is another income, your “Adjusted Gross Income.” This is “the line” that people are talking about when they use the phrases “above-the-line deduction” and “below-the-line deduction.” If it comes out before your AGI is calculated, it is an above-the-line deduction. These are deductions such as self-employment tax, self-employed retirement plans, self-employed health insurance premiums, HSA contributions, student loan interest, alimony, tuition, and any IRA deductions. If it comes out after your AGI is calculated, it is a below-the-line deduction. These are EITHER your standard deduction OR your itemized deductions, like mortgage interest, state/local/property taxes, and charitable contributions. A MAGI is just a slight tweak to your AGI.
Below are the MAGI limits for direct Roth IRA contributions [2024]. If your MAGI is below the first number, you can just contribute to a Roth IRA directly. If your MAGI is over the second number, you cannot contribute at all. If your MAGI is between the two numbers, you can make a partial direct contribution (most shouldn't bother with this, just do it all through the Backdoor).
- Married Filing Separately (and lived with spouse for at least part of the year): $0-$10,000
- Married Filing Jointly: $230,000-$240,000
- Single or Head of Household: $146,000-$161,000
If you think you'll be anywhere close to that first number, do yourself a favor and just make your Roth IRA contribution indirectly, i.e., through the Backdoor (contribute to a traditional IRA and then convert that contribution to a Roth IRA). Since 2010, there has been no income limit on Roth conversions and there has never been an income limit on traditional IRA contributions, just your ability to deduct them.
How does a MAGI differ from an AGI? It's a very slight difference. Bear in mind that there are other MAGIs out there. We're only talking about the one that affects Roth IRA contributions here. But to get your MAGI, you simply take your AGI, subtract some income from it, and add back in some other income to it. The worksheet showing you how to do this is Worksheet 2-1 in Publication 590.
Basically, you subtract income from a Roth conversion and you add income from IRA deductions (not sure why you'd have this), student loan interest (if you are using this worksheet, you probably don't have this), tuition deduction (you probably don't have this), a couple of rare deductions for foreign income/deductions (you probably don't have these), some savings bond interest you probably don't have much of, and some employer-provided adoption benefits. For most people, your MAGI = your AGI since all of these deductions are pretty rare for the folks worried about this limit for direct Roth IRA contributions. So, focus on your AGI. That means if you contributed directly to a Roth IRA but late in the year realized you probably should not have, one easy fix is to get your AGI below that limit by contributing to an HSA or a self-employed retirement plan like an individual 401(k) or SEP-IRA. Note that giving a bunch of money to charity is NOT a solution to this problem because that is a below-the-line deduction.
How to Do an IRA Recharacterization
If you can't get your MAGI low enough, you will have to do an IRA recharacterization. As far as the IRS is concerned, a recharacterization is as though you never made the Roth IRA contribution at all but made a traditional IRA contribution instead. You don't report a recharacterization separately; you just report a traditional IRA contribution. Keep in mind as you read on the internet about recharacterizations that there used to be two types of them—a recharacterization of a Roth IRA CONTRIBUTION and a recharacterization of a Roth IRA CONVERSION. The second type was outlawed in 2018, but the first one, the one we're talking about today, is still perfectly legal. If you decide you want to undo a Roth conversion these days, you're simply out of luck. Here is how you do a recharacterization of a Roth IRA contribution:
- You tell Vanguard (or wherever your IRAs are) to recharacterize the Roth IRA contribution to a Traditional IRA contribution.
Yup. That's it. The brokerage takes care of the rest. You can read all about all of the rules in Publication 590 Chapter 1 if you want, but that's basically what they say. Don't believe me? Fine. Here are the IRS instructions:
How Do You Recharacterize a Contribution?
To recharacterize a contribution, you must notify both the trustee of the first IRA (the one to which the contribution was actually made) and the trustee of the second IRA (the one to which the contribution is being moved) that you have elected to treat the contribution as having been made to the second IRA rather than the first. You must make the notifications by the date of the transfer. Only one notification is required if both IRAs are maintained by the same trustee. The notification(s) must include all of the following information:
- The type and amount of the contribution to the first IRA that is to be recharacterized.
- The date on which the contribution was made to the first IRA and the year for which it was made.
- A direction to the trustee of the first IRA to transfer in a trustee-to-trustee transfer the amount of the contribution and any net income (or loss) allocable to the contribution to the trustee of the second IRA.
- The name of the trustee of the first IRA and the name of the trustee of the second IRA.
- Any additional information needed to make the transfer.
In most cases, the net income you must transfer is determined by your IRA trustee or custodian.
See what I mean? It's just a phone call. Any earnings that the account had in between the contribution and the recharacterization just go over with the contribution. No big deal.
You have until your tax filing date to do this. Most of the time, that's April 15 of the next year. However, the IRS is even more lenient than that. You actually can do this for an extra six months after your tax filing date, but you will have to refile your return.
Where Do You Report a Recharacterization?
If you hire somebody else to prepare your taxes, you can skip this section. If you do it yourself, you'll need to make sure you report this correctly. According to Pub 590, you report it on our old friend Form 8606.
Pub 590 says this:
Actually, that's really misleading. If you read Form 8606, you will see that the only time it ever mentions a recharacterization is to tell you NOT to put it on the form.
So, what is Pub 590 talking about? They're talking about this section in the 8606 instructions:
Reporting recharacterizations.
Treat any recharacterized IRA contribution as though the amount of the contribution was originally contributed to the second IRA, not the first IRA. For the recharacterization, you must transfer the amount of the original contribution plus any related earnings or less any related loss. In most cases, your IRA trustee or custodian figures the amount of the related earnings you must transfer. If you need to figure the related earnings, see How Do You Recharacterize a Contribution? in chapter 1 of Pub. 590-A. Treat any earnings or loss that occurred in the first IRA as having occurred in the second IRA. You can’t deduct any loss that occurred while the funds were in the first IRA . . . Report the nondeductible traditional IRA portion of the recharacterized contribution, if any, on Form 8606, Part I. Don’t report the Roth IRA contribution (whether or not you recharacterized all or part of it) on Form 8606. Attach a statement to your return explaining the recharacterization. If the recharacterization occurred in 2023, include the amount transferred from the traditional IRA on 2023 Form 1040, 1040-SR, or 1040-NR, line 4a. If the recharacterization occurred in 2024, report the amount transferred only in the attached statement, and not on your 2023 or 2024 tax return.
The bottom line is that you just report this recharacterized contribution on Form 8606 as if it were the regular old non-deductible traditional IRA contribution that you should have made in the first place. You also need to include a statement. What should your statement look like? I would write something like this:
“To whom it may concern:
I made a 2024 Roth IRA contribution of $7,000 on March 13, 2024, because I didn't know about the whole MAGI limit thing when I made the contribution. After becoming smarter, I recharacterized $7,137.14 (original contribution plus earnings) to a traditional IRA on November 4, 2024. Thank you for helping our country fund its government. You're the best.
Hugs and kisses from your favorite taxpayer,
James Dahle”
Seriously, it doesn't say what has to be on the statement, just that there is one “explaining the recharacterization.” You don't even have to tell them why you did the recharacterization. If you had a loss in the account between contribution and recharacterization, no big deal. It's still as though you made a $7,000 contribution to a traditional IRA and THEN it lost money. If you were able to deduct the contribution (you probably can't) you would get a $7,000 deduction. The IRA provider may also send you a Form 5498 (which has the recharacterized amount on line 4), but you don't actually do anything with it when you file your taxes. It's just an informational return.
Reconverting the IRA
Here is where it gets interesting. You've now fixed your mistake in the eyes of the IRS, going from an illegal Roth IRA contribution to a legal traditional IRA contribution (that is probably not deductible for you). But you aren't done with what you meant to do, which is put money into a Roth IRA. You now need to do a Roth conversion. You do it just like you normally would as if you had contributed originally to the Traditional IRA. You can do it the very next day if you like. You can probably even do it the same day; just make sure there is a paper trail showing the money was actually in the traditional IRA at some point. There used to be a waiting period after a recharacterization before you could do a Roth conversion on that money. But that waiting period only ever applied to the recharacterization of a Roth CONVERSION (which was no longer allowed starting in 2018) and NOT the recharacterization of a Roth CONTRIBUTION. So, there is no waiting period. Just reconvert convert it and go on your merry way.
I hope this information helps you fix your mistake. Just do your Roth IRA contributions through the Backdoor going forward, and you won't have this problem again.
Step 2 Error – Not Investing in a Money Market Fund in the Traditional IRA
What happens if you LOSE money in between the contribution and conversion step? This problem is easily avoided by using an investment like a money market fund that does not go down in value for that time period. But some people fail to do so and end up losing money. When they work their way through their IRS Form 8606, they discover they have basis left over that they can then carry forward indefinitely for years! No big deal; it just makes your paperwork more complicated. Perhaps at some point in the future, you'll do a Roth conversion of tax-deferred money and this carry-forward basis will reduce the tax on that event.
What if you MADE money in the account between contribution and conversion? This actually happens most of the time, so I wrote an entire post on it called Pennies and the Backdoor Roth IRA. Technically, any money earned between the contribution and conversion step is fully taxable at ordinary income tax rates in the year of the conversion. If it is less than 50 cents, you just ignore it. If it's more, you report it on your 8606 and pay taxes on it.
If it is still in the traditional IRA, either do another tiny Roth conversion or leave it there until you do next year's Backdoor Roth IRA process. Either is fine. If you were smart and just used a money market fund and did the conversion as soon as your IRA provider allowed it (usually less than a week and sometimes as early as the next day), this won't be much money and there won't be much tax due.
Step 3 Error – Forgetting to Do the Conversion
If you forgot to do the conversion step for eight months afterward, it could be a huge gain on which you're unnecessarily paying taxes. No way to fix this one, just pay your “stupid tax” and move on.
Step 4 Error – Forgetting to Invest the Roth IRA Money
Even worse than paying taxes on a huge gain is not getting the gain in the first place because you left the money sitting in cash for months. No way to fix this one either. Your “stupid tax” this time comes in the form of opportunity cost. Just get the money invested ASAP to stop the cash drag. Maybe you even got lucky and the market went down in between contribution and investment so now you get to buy low.
Step 5 Error – The Pro-Rata Rule
Some of the most common questions I get are from people who make a late contribution to a Backdoor Roth IRA. What do I mean by late? You are allowed to make an IRA contribution AFTER the calendar year ends. In fact, you have until Tax Day, usually April 15 unless you get an extension of up to six months. While it is to your advantage to contribute to retirement accounts as quickly as possible so that money can start compounding in a tax-protected way, I understand that we all have lots of good things to do with our money and sometimes this gets pushed back into the next calendar year. All it really does is complicate your paperwork a bit.
For example: if you made your 2023 IRA contribution in April 2024, instead of reporting both the contribution and the conversion on your 2023 taxes, you would report only the contribution there. The conversion would be reported on the taxes for the year you did the conversion, i.e., your 2024 tax return due in April 2025. Your 2023 IRS Form 8606 becomes a little simpler and your 2024 IRS Form 8606 becomes a little more complicated. Not a big deal if you can follow the simple instructions.
What confuses people, however, is the pro-rata rule. This is the rule that says you need to empty your traditional IRA by December 31 of the year you do the conversion. Since these folks have never filled out a Form 8606 (or apparently read the instructions), they assume that for a 2023 contribution they need to have a balance of $0 at the end of 2023, even if they didn't do the conversion step until 2024. That's simply not the case. The pro-rata rule isn't applied until the year of the conversion, i.e., December 31, 2024.
Emptying the IRAs
How do you empty those IRAs? You usually have two choices.
- Do a Roth conversion of the whole thing. This is what I generally recommend for small IRAs where the tax bill on the conversion would not be too onerous. It is quick and easy, and it increases the amount of tax-free assets you have.
- Roll the money into a 401(k) or 403(b), either that of your current employer, that of a past employer, or to your own individual 401(k) if you are self-employed. This is usually a better option if you have a large IRA where you would rather deal with the hassle than pay the tax bill during your peak earnings years.
How large is large and how small is small? It's going to vary by the person and how much disposable cash they have. Most would consider an IRA under $10,000 to be small and an IRA over $100,000 to be large. In between, it's a personal decision as to which would be better for you.
What If You Didn't Empty the IRA?
What if you screwed this one up? Your Backdoor Roth IRA conversion step just got pro-rata'd. There is a tax bill associated with that because most of your conversion was of tax-deferred money rather than post-tax money like it was supposed to be.
The fix for this is going to vary by the individual, but the easiest fix is to simply convert the entire IRA to a Roth IRA now, so you end up getting all your post-tax money into that Roth IRA. Another possible fix is to figure out a way to separate your basis in that IRA, roll the tax-deferred money into a 401(k), and then convert the basis left behind in the IRA.
Do yourself a favor and just empty the darn IRA by December 31. Keep in mind that this is usually not an instantaneous process, so don't put it off until you're on holiday break at the end of the year.
Step 6 Error – Screwing Up the Tax Forms
Both individual taxpayers and professional tax preparers screw up IRS Form 8606 all the time. In fact, some of them haven't even heard of a Backdoor Roth IRA. (Incidentally, this is one of the best questions to ask while interviewing a potential tax professional—”How many Backdoor Roth IRAs did you help last year?”)
The usual fix to this error is to file a 1040X (Amended Tax Return) and a new Form 8606. You can do this for the last three years if necessary. If you didn't file Form 8606 at all, you'll definitely want to do this. The key is to check lines 15c and 18 on Form 8606. They should both be a number very close to zero if the form is being completed correctly.
The tax preparer should NOT be filing Form 5439. If you did Steps 1-5 right, this form probably doesn't belong in your tax return.
A lot of people wonder about the 1099-R sent to them by their IRA provider and worry that it was done wrong and that it will cause them to pay taxes they shouldn't have to pay. Sometimes the form was filled out wrong, but mostly this is just a lot of anxiety. What gets people anxious is finding something on Line 2a “Taxable amount.” As long as the box on Line 2b is also checked “Taxable amount not determined,” you're golden. Don't worry about it. If it is not, have the IRA provider send you a new, correct form—either with $0 in 2a or the box in 2b checked (usually the latter). Here's what mine from a few years back looked like from Vanguard:
Note that Box 2b is checked, even though a taxable amount of $5,500.07 is being reported to the IRS.
Again, if you're not sure how to enter this into TurboTax, check out my TurboTax tutorial.
Still Confused About the Backdoor Roth?
Need more help with a Backdoor Roth IRA? I wish Congress would just lift the rule against direct Roth IRA contributions for high earners and save us all this hassle, but who knows if that will ever happen.
- If you made your contribution after the end of the year, check out Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA.
- Here's a step-by-step tutorial for doing a Backdoor Roth IRA at Vanguard.
- Here's a step-by-step tutorial for doing a Backdoor Roth IRA at Fidelity.
- Here is a step-by-step tutorial reporting the Backdoor Roth IRA in TurboTax.
- Here is my prior post on 17 Ways to Screw Up Your Backdoor Roth IRA.
- You can hire a professional to help you—either a good financial advisor or a good tax strategist can assist.
- You can also ask your peers for help on the WCI Forum, the Private WCI Facebook Group, and the WCI Subreddit.
Late Contributions to the Backdoor Roth IRA
While it is “cleaner” to make your contribution and your conversion all in the same calendar tax year, you can make your contribution up until your tax filing date of the next year. The key to filling out the 8606 correctly when you make a contribution after the calendar year is to recognize that the contribution step is reported for the tax year and the conversion step is reported for the calendar year. So imagine you did the following during the calendar year 2023:
- Made a 2022 IRA contribution (reported on 2022 8606)
- Did a Roth conversion of that contribution (reported on 2023 8606)
- Made a 2023 IRA contribution (reported on 2023 8606)
- Did a Roth conversion of that contribution (reported on 2023 8606)
Your forms would look like this:
2022 Form 8606 (Only Have to Fill Out Part I)
Note that all this serves to do is report basis for the next year. No tax is due. Since no conversion step was done during the calendar year 2022, you only have to fill out lines 1-3 and 14.
2023 Form 8606 (Must Fill Out Parts I and II)
Note that you've got to do all of Part I plus Part II for this year because you did the conversion step, unlike last year (2022). Let's go through this line by line.
Form 8606 – Part I
- Line 1 – That's the money you contributed for 2023 (which would be $6,500).
- Line 2 – This is your basis. Since you made a contribution for 2022 but didn't do a conversion until 2023, your basis is $6,000.
- Line 3 – $6,500 + $6,000 = $12,500.
- Line 4 – Remember this is asking about 2024, not 2023, and since you won't make the mistake of doing your contribution late again, this will be zero.
- Line 5 – $12,500 – $0 = $12,500.
- Line 6 – This is the line that triggers the pro-rata issue. Even though you made a 2022 contribution, you did so AFTER December 31, so this line would still be zero if you filled it out for 2022, which you didn't because you didn't do a conversion in 2022 and got to skip lines 4-13. But this is the 2023 form and since you converted your entire traditional IRA, this will be $0.
- Line 7 – This doesn't include conversions. Since you didn't take any money out of your traditional IRA this year except the conversion, this is $0.
- Line 8 – You converted a total of $12,500 this year to a Roth IRA, so $12,500.
- Line 9 – $0 + $0 + $12,500 = $12,500.
- Line 10 – $12,500/$12,500 = 1.
- Line 11 – $12,500 * 1 = $12,500.
- Line 12 – $0 * 1 = $0.
- Line 13 – $12,500 + $0 = $12,500.
- Line 14 – $12,500 – $12,500 = $0.
- Line 15a – $0 – $0 = $0.
- Line 15b – You didn't take money out of an IRA to help you survive a disaster, so $0.
- Line 15c – $0 – $0 = $0.
Part II
- Line 16 – Line 8 is $12,500 so $12,500.
- Line 17 – Line 11 is $12,500 so $12,500.
- Line 18 – $12,500 – $12,500 = $0.
Backdoor Roth IRA FAQs
Can I still do a Backdoor Roth IRA for last year?
You have until tax day (generally April 15, but as late as October 15 if you file an extension) of the following year to make your traditional IRA contribution. There is no deadline for the Roth conversion step; it can be done at anytime. Make sure you fill out the paperwork properly according to the section above about late contributions.
Can I do last year's IRA contribution and this year's IRA contribution at the same time and convert them at the same time?
Yes. Just remember to report last year's contribution on last year's Form 8606 and this year's contribution and the conversion on this year's Form 8606.
Does my 401(k), 403(b), 457(b), Roth IRA, or inherited IRA count toward the pro-rata calculation?
No. Only traditional IRAs, rollover IRAs, SEP-IRAs, and SIMPLE IRAs count. See line 6 of Form 8606 for details.
What if it is a separate IRA? Does it still count?
Yes. All IRAs count toward the pro-rata calculation.
What should I do with my rollover or traditional IRA to avoid pro-ration?
If it is small, convert it to a Roth IRA along with this year's traditional IRA contribution and pay the tax due on it. If large, try to roll it into your employer's 401(k) or if you have self-employment income, into your individual 401(k).
I got pro-rated. What now?
The easiest solution is to convert the entire IRA, SEP-IRA, or SIMPLE IRA that caused the pro-ration and is now composed of both pre-tax and after-tax money. That is also the most expensive solution. A harder solution that may save you some taxes involves isolating the basis in that IRA by rolling the rest of the account into a 401(k) and then convert just the basis to a Roth IRA.
I am leaving my employer. Should I roll my 401(k) or 403(b) into a traditional IRA? If not, what should I do with it?
If you put it into a traditional IRA it is going to cause any future Backdoor Roths to be pro-rated. Better options include leaving it where it is; rolling it into your new employer's 401(k) or 403(b); rolling it into your individual 401(k); or, if it is small, just converting the whole thing to a Roth IRA.
How much can I contribute to a Roth IRA via the Backdoor Roth IRA process?
In 2024, you are allowed to contribute $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) per year for you and $7,000 ($8,000 if 50+) for your spouse. This includes all contributions to traditional and Roth IRAs. Rollovers/transfers do not count toward the annual contribution limit.
What should I invest the money into?
While in the traditional IRA for a day or two, leave it in cash. Once it is in the Roth IRA, invest it according to your written investing plan. If you don't have one, get one, but in the meantime it would be a good idea to put it into a lifecycle fund such as a Vanguard Target Retirement Fund.
Can I use the same traditional and Roth IRA each year or do I need new ones?
You can use the same ones each year.
The Backdoor Roth IRA process leads to more tax-free retirement account money for doctors and other high-income professionals. If you follow the simple steps outlined above, you will pay less in taxes, boost your returns, facilitate your estate planning, and increase your asset protection. Most members of The White Coat Investor community do these every year, and you should too.
What do you think? Are you doing Backdoor Roth IRAs? Why or why not? Any questions about it?
[This updated post was originally published in 2014.]
I am currently married and contributed to my traditional IRA as follows:
2015: $5,500 deductible
2016: $5,500 non-deductible
2017: $5,500 likely non-deductible
With the combined income of my wife and I, we were slightly over the threshold in 2016 to be able to deduct my IRA contribution that year. So I have a $5,500 basis from my 2016 taxes in my IRA (as reported on form 8606).
The other issue is that all the money is in a single traditional IRA, so it is a mix of deductible and non-deductible money and this year’s contribution. I contributed to that IRA earlier in 2017 without thinking it through, and I expect that it will be non-deductible this year again due to our income levels. I also have the IRA totally invested in an index fund, and let’s say that it lost some money and the IRA is now valued at $15,000.
What do you suggest I do to help fix my IRA situation? I do not want to be stuck with non-deductible IRA contributions now and in the future and not be able to do a backdoor Roth conversion due to the pro-rata rule. Is there something I can do to be able to do a backdoor Roth this year with the 2017 contribution? I would like to do a rollover from the IRA into a 401k, and then do the backdoor conversion on the remaining amount, but I was not sure how to approach this since everything is mixed in one IRA and it has a basis of $5,500 from last year. If you have any suggestions please on how to approach this I would really appreciate it.
Thanks so much!
How did you lose money in an index fund over the last 3 years?
At any rate, the easiest solution, if you can afford the taxes, is to convert the whole thing and pay taxes on $5,500 + gains. Separating out that basis is going to be tough, but perhaps if your 401(k) allows rollovers into it and but doesn’t allow non-deductible money to be rolled in you could pull it off. Personally, I’d bite the bullet, pay the $1500-2000 in taxes and have a $15K Roth IRA.
I opened a Vanguard Traditional IRA. The following day, I opened a Roth IRA and the tried to convert the traditional to a Roth IRA. It said that I did not have funds to convert. I called Vanguard and they told me that I would not be able to convert from Traditional to Roth IRA for 1 week because they put a hold on the money. They said that whenever you put new money into an account, you can buy and trade, but you can’t move it from that account for 1 week. So I have to let it sit for 1 week before being able to convert it.
Have you heard of this? I asked the guy if this was something new and he said no.
Thanks
Yes, it’s because you need to turn it into a brokerage acct. Just call vanguard and change it, then the funds are available immediately. They will be able to help , won’t help you now but will be better for next time
Yes, I had to wait a week this year. The lesson I learned was put the traditional IRA into Prime MMF and not the sweep account.
When I log on to my Vanguard account it says that it is a Traditional IRA Brokerage Account. WCI, by sweep account, do you mean I should avoid the Vanguard Federal Money Market (Settlement Fund) and directly buy into the Prime Money Market Fund ? Thanks
Yes. It’ll save you a few days waiting to do the conversion step. I know, I know. It doesn’t make any sense. But it’s the way it worked out for me this year with the goofy new Vanguard brokerage accounts.
I have a part-time job consulting that gives me a few hundred bucks each month so I am thinking of opening a solo 401k to rollover my existing traditional IRAs. I understand that I will have to sign up for an EIN and then make my consulting job as a sole proprietorship, which I would report when I file my personal taxes with the relevant tax schedules and SE forms (that TurboTax would generate).
1. I already get a 1099 for this consulting work, and I guess I am confused with how I would report it as a sole proprietorship come tax time? Would I indicate in TurboTax that the 1099 belongs to the proprietorship so it gets attached to the right forms, and not the portion with my W2s and such?
2. I get a 1099 from the client under my social security number. If I get an EIN to create my self-employed proprietorship, would I tell my client to report the 1099 using the EIN or still keep my SSN in the 1099? Or is the SSN good for the 1099 (so no change with the client), and the EIN only applies for TurboTax to fill out the relevant self-proprietor forms?
3. As long as I am a consultant, I can contribute to my solo 401k (in addition to using it for rollovers from traditional IRAs if needed). After I stop this consulting job on the side, I assume that I can keep the solo 401k open and use it only for rollovers, but I would not be able to contribute to the 401k because my consulting income has ceased. Is this right?
4. After I stop this consulting job, do I keep the EIN open/active or do I have to close/cancel it? Would there be anything special I need to tell the IRS or do when filling out my taxes (with TurboTax) to say that the “business” stopped? Or just by telling TurboTax when I fill out my taxes that there is no self-proprietorship business anymore, and then it just does not generate the SE forms/schedules and that is what tells the IRS that I am no longer engaged in that (even though I would keep the solo 401k open)?
Thank you!
1. You report your sole proprietor 1099 income on Schedule C, no? That’s where you report any sole proprietor income you don’t get a 1099 for too. What you don’t seem to be getting is you have already been a sole proprietor. You just don’t have an EIN (which isn’t mandatory for sole proprietors unless they want to open an individual 401(k)). Yes, all income and expenses for that business go on the same schedule C
2. Best practice is to get all your 1099s with your EIN on it, but I don’t know that anyone at the IRS is looking too closely at that. As long as the income is reported, that’s probably okay. Read the instructions for Line D on Schedule C:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sc.pdf
Enter on line D the employer identification
number (EIN) that was issued to
you on Form SS-4. Do not enter your
SSN on this line. Do not enter another
taxpayer’s EIN (for example, from any
Forms 1099-MISC that you received). If
you do not have an EIN, leave line D
blank.
You need an EIN only if you have a
qualified retirement plan or are required
to file employment, excise, alcohol, tobacco,
or firearms returns, or are a payer
of gambling winnings. If you need an
EIN, see the Instructions for Form SS-4.
Single-member LLCs. If you are the
sole owner of an LLC that is not treated
as a separate entity for federal income
tax purposes, enter on line D the EIN
that was issued to the LLC (in the LLC’s
legal name) for a qualified retirement
plan, to file employment, excise, alcohol,
tobacco, or firearms returns, or as a
payer of gambling winnings. If you do
not have such an EIN, leave line D
blank.
3. That’s right.
4. What’s the point of closing an EIN? To prevent identity theft or something? If your sole proprietorship doesn’t make money one year, you don’t have to do a schedule C for it that year. Then you can do it again the next year if you have some income etc. If it’s just consulting work, little sense in closing down. If it’s a “real business”, you might want to let the folks at the state know. Details here: https://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/closing-a-business/closing-a-sole-proprietorship.html
Very helpful, thanks! That makes more sense that I have been a self-proprietor all along, but it comes down to whether I pay the 1099 in my personal tax portion instead of establishing a formal self-proprietorship, getting an EIN, and paying it in the business portion of the tax return.
So if I want to set up a solo 401k for some part-time consulting work I do just myself out of my home that pays a little, I would plan to apply for an EIN and open a solo 401k so that I can do rollovers and a backdoor Roth.
Do I also need to apply for a business license or certificate through the city clerk’s office? I was not sure if just getting the EIN is all I would need to do to set myself up as a sole-proprietorship, or if it would be more complex and I need to also look into things like getting a business license, opening a business bank account to keep that income separate, etc.?
You don’t “pay 1099” at all. 1099 is a form of income. A form of income that a business gets. If you didn’t form a partnership, LLC, or corporation, that business is a sole proprietorship. Sole proprietorship income gets reported on Schedule C. By definition, that isn’t your “personal tax portion” it is your “business tax portion.” The EIN has nothing to do with anything except it has to go on the form you open an individual 401(k) with. A sole proprietorship can get an EIN if it wants, but doesn’t have to unless it opens an individual 401(k).
Whether you need a business license or certificate depends on state and local law. Check with them. But for minimal income, very few do. The EIN doesn’t trigger you needing to get a business license. You either need it or you don’t completely separate from the EIN. You should have a business bank account anyway. That’s just good practice when you own a business.
I am thinking of opening a solo 401k for some small amount of side income I do as an independent contractor essentially to be able to do a backdoor Roth later on. If I become a sole proprietor for taxes and file it under schedule C and SE, I will let the tax program calculate the appropriate taxes for my income tax, social security, and such.
But if I open the solo 401k, I would be able to contribute to it based on my self-employment work (in addition to being able to rollover my traditional IRA into the 401k).
#1: The 401k contribution limits depend on the net profits, which would be small. If I do not know yet how much the net profits would be, I figure I will wait until early 2018 when I do my taxes, see how much the profits are, and then calculate the exact contribution for 2017 and contribute that amount. Is that the way to go? I guess that as long as I contribute by April 15, 2018 for the 2017 year, then I can still deduct it when I file 2017, so I don’t know if I am missing something by waiting to contribute?
#2: My side income is small and I was playing with online solo 401k calculators to see how much I can contribute – ie. if net profits are $1,000, then I could contribute $929 into the 401k. If I contribute that much and deduct it in my return, would my taxes from the sole proprietorship be almost nil? I guess I will see once I have my actual numbers, but it seems that a low self-employed income with max solo401k contribution and deduction, would work out nicely with taxes? Then I get the added benefit of contributing the max I can to the 401k, while also rolling over my IRA to do a backdoor Roth and the taxes from the schedule C are minimal.
Thank you!
1. Just a few months of earnings on the contribution.
2. Be careful. If you have another 401(k) you’re maxing out the employee contribution with your employer contribution to your individual 401(k) on $1K is less than $200. But if no other 401(k), then sure.
Thank you for the prompt reply!
1. That makes sense about lost earnings time. I guess I could figure out the net profits that I will be reporting to calculate the contribution room sooner and not lose that time. I guess I thought that better to be safe and not overcontribute until I knew the exact net profits since that determines the contribution amount.
2. I do not have any other 401k’s, so this solo 401k would be my only one, which at least makes things easier. When I started running some numbers with the small income from the sole-proprietorship and taxes I would pay, I did not expect that the taxes would be offset so much. I imagine it’s probably because the sole proprietorship generates such little net profits that the 401k deduction works great this way, but it was a nice surprise.
Thanks again!
1. Yes, that’s safer.
2. Good. Then you should be able to put a lot in it, almost everything you earn up to $18K as that’s your employee contribution.
Sorry, I just wanted to clarify something from your initial reply above please when I was reading it again:
“#2 If you have another 401(k) you’re maxing out the employee contribution with your employer contribution to your individual 401(k) on $1K is less than $200. But if no other 401(k), then sure.”
I was not sure what you meant exactly. Is this in case I have a workplace 401k and I then open and contribute to a solo 401k, to just watch out that what I contribute to the solo also counts towards the total 401k limit for both plans each year? Or what were you referring to?
Thanks!
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/multiple-401k-rules/
Two relevant rules- 1 $18K employee contribution total. 1 $54K employee + employer contribution per unrelated employer. So if you already burned your employee contribution in another 401(k), you can’t do it with your individual 401(k). You only get one. So then you’re stuck with the employer contribution only, which is 20% of pay.
Apologies in advance if something like this has already been asked. I’ve been contributing to a Roth IRA all year, and as my husband and I currently have been filing as married filing jointly, have had no problem since we are below the income limit. Sadly, we are getting divorced and since it won’t be finalized before January, I think we are still required to file as married but filing separately for this year. Once I start filing as single again, I will make too much money to contribute to a Roth so will have to go the back door route starting next year. My question is how to handle my current year’s contributions and what will happen at tax time? From what I can find, it looks like when you file separately the income limit is decreased significantly so I’d no longer qualify.
No biggie. Just do it via the backdoor like all the other “high earners.” There’s no income limit on a traditional IRA contribution, even if you file MFS. You probably won’t be able to deduct it, but that’s okay, you’re going to convert it to a Roth IRA anyway.
Sorry, I should clarify. I’ve already made 2017’s contributions into a Roth because I thought I would qualify. Going forward I’ll do it via backdoor starting in 2018 but I’m just not sure how this year’s will be handled. Thanks for the prompt response. Your blog has completely changed my approach to investing since I found it a couple of years ago!
Probably need to recharacterize then reconvert. Be sure to read the rules about the waiting period first.
Talked to Vanguard today and got it all taken care of. Could not have been easier. Thanks again for all your helpful advice!
Hi, I am in the process of doing the backdoor roth. I am 2.5 years out of fellowship in academics and finally have student loans battered down and a solid 9 months of emergency funds and now I am ready to start making more contributions to retirement. I already max out my 403(b) and get a 7% salary match from my employer for doing that. I have a retirement account from residency that is miniscule but was transferred to a money market account not too long ago because I have not worked there in so long. My wife also has a separate retirement account from her prior employers that have done the same. So we have a few smaller retirement accounts that add up to a good start to savings but are not earning any money recently.
I need to distribute these accounts to some form of retirement account but want to make sure I do this the right way with regards to tax benefits and the backdoor roth. Any advice on how to distribute our prior accounts that are stagnant?
Thanks so much in advance. I have read your website for years off and on and am finding your “Bootcamp” articles very helpful. Luckily the first 3 editions I already have accomplished!
Ryan
Others more educated than I should be along shortly, but if your account from residency is anything like my accounts from residency, I had to roll mine over. That means it is in a traditional IRA now. Any funds there on 12/31 of the year you’ve done a backdoor are subject to the pro rata rule. The 403b is not figured in that.
I followed the advice of many on the site and opened a solo 401k and have moved the old accounts to it; they don’t count any more as traditional accounts with respect to the pro rata.
You may have to do something similar. Or if balance is small enough, you can just pay the tax that the pro rata would create.
The year you leave residency is a great year to do a Roth conversion.
Okay, so you have a 403(b). That’s great. Find out if you can roll over your residency retirement account in there and do that if you can.
Is your wife’s account a 401(k) or IRA? If a 401(k), you can leave it there for now. Basically, you just need to get that money invested and working, but NOT in an IRA.
Then you can just do a personal and spousal backdoor Roth IRA each year.
9 months is a heck of an emergency fund. Any particular reason you need one that large?
The 9 mo emergency fund is secondary to receiving a bonus at the end of the academic year. We received it in September. Some of that will be invested into the backdoor roth for me and my wife once I figure all the paperwork out with our prior retirement accounts.
My residency account I learned today I can roll over into my current 403(b), so I should be good to go. We are still figuring out my wife’s. She has two and both are in 403(b) accounts but are not earning and they will not let us invest the money as she hasn’t worked there in the timeframe they require. Any advice on what we should do with her money? It is somewhere close to 100k total.
Thanks again for all of the work you do.
Can she make some side income (surveys?), open a solo 401(k), and then roll it in there?
She actually works part time now and her employer’s 401(k) is only offered to full time employees. She may go full time when the kids are older and in school but that will be another 3 years as we have a 1.5 year old still. From what I read about solo 401k is that she would have to be her own employer. I can’t seem to find any good options for her unless I am missing something.
What you’re missing is she needs very little self-employed income to justify opening an individual 401(k).
That’s great. She actually sell’s a cosmetic to a couple of her friends. Probably only makes $100-200 per year with that. I am assuming that will qualify? If so, what happens if she stops selling the product. Can the solo 401k continue on? I will dig through your site to investigate this option more.
Yes. that counts. Yes, she can keep it if she stops selling the product, she just can’t contribute to it. Make sure she opens it at a place that allows rollovers (Fidelity, eTrade, but not Vanguard.)
I am in a similar situation with a Fidelity solo 401k. Once I stop selling the product or service and stop working self-employed (as a sole proprietor), that’s good to know that the solo 401k can stay open but just not contribute to it as you said.
– Can the solo 401k still be used for traditional IRA rollovers in the future? Or is the ability to rollover tIRAs dependent on being able to contribute to the 401k?
– Do I just stop filing the self-employment tax forms (schedule SE, C) in my personal tax forms after the last year I am being self-employed? And that is what tells the IRS I am no longer doing that work, or is there a formal form that needs to be filed to say the business has ended (even if it has not officially dissolved, just that I am not getting that small self-employed income anymore)?
Yes.
No.
Yes.
Some businesses like LLCs and corporations need to be formally closed with additional paperwork. But if your sole proprietorship has no expenses or income in a given year, I see no reason you’d have to file schedules SE or C for it that year. Bear in mind it’s not just the IRS that cares if you close you a business. Your state might too.
Hi WCI, thank you for the article. I am a few years out of fellowship and would like to proceed with the backdoor Roth. I currently have a traditional IRA, roth IRA and an taxable investment account all with Ameritrade. Due to a misguided investment, I have only about $200 in the traditional IRA in common stocks. According to your article, to proceed, I would roll the traditional IRA over into the roth and take a hit on paying taxes. My question is a) when I do so, do I need to sell the stock at a loss and thus report this as a deduction for capital loss? b) would I then count this towards my 2016 Roth contribution? c) when this done then I would be able to make the full $5500 contribution towards 2017 Roth and do so as a backdoor.
Thank you.
a) yes you probably need to liquidate the stock
b) it’s in an IRA, there are no tax consequences. You don’t pay for gains and you can’t deduct losses.
c) no, rollovers don’t count toward your contribution limits
Thank you for the quick response. Does this mean that I can still make a 2017 contribution of $5500 to be rolled over to Roth and then do so again for 2018 in the next tax cycle?
Yes.
Hi WCI, just to clarify the timeline on my above question. After I have converted (rollover) my current traditional IRA to a Roth before 12/31/2017. I would then …
a) do a backdoor roth for 2017, but do this before 12/31/2017
b) do a backdoor roth for 2017, but do so on or after 1/1/2018
AND
c) do a backdoor roth for 2018 on or after 1/1/2018
d) do a backdoor roth for 2018 but wait until after 1/1/2019
I guess my question really is can you do multiple backdoor roths in the same calendar year but for 2 consecutive year contributions.
Thank you
The answer to your last question is yes. I don’t understand what you’re saying with the letters but you can do either a or b and either c or d, but if I were you I’d do a and c to simplify your 8606s.
WCI,
I wanted to clarify one thing from my original post. The <$200 I have is in a non-deductible post tax traditional IRA. Do I still need to convert that to a Roth so that the balance shows 0 on 12/31/2017 and the immediately transfer $5500 and do a back door conversion?
OR can I directly transfer an additional $5300 and then do the backdoor conversion with a sum of $5500?
Thanks
Yes. You need to convert that $200 to a Roth IRA so you balance is $0 on Dec 31st.
Yes, it would be best if you do the contribution and conversion steps of the backdoor Roth IRA in calendar year 2017. You don’t have to, but it makes your 8606 a little cleaner.
The $200 in your IRA doesn’t count toward your $5500 contribution limit. So you’ll be contributing $5500 this year and converting $5700.
Is the backdoor roth IRA impacted by the language in house bill H.R.1 regarding “Repeal of special rule permitting recharacterization of Roth IRA contributions as traditional IRA contributions”
No. There is no recharacterization involved in the backdoor Roth IRA process. It might affect the “horse race” technique though.
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/roth-conversion-horse-race/
Thanks for the informative article. I have a question regarding my own specific circumstance: I put the maximum $5500 into a Roth IRA during each year of residency. As an attending, I’d like to start doing the backdoor Roth for $5500 annually. Can I place this money into the same Roth IRA account (residency dollars), or should I keep it separate from the original Roth IRA? (Fwiw, I’m planning on an early 40’s retirement and would like to avoid ” substantially equal periodic payment” complexities).
Thanks!
Well, if you don’t want to do SEPP, you’re going to need a taxable account to retire early. Personally, I don’t think it’s that complex so I’d use it before NOT maxing out a tax-deferred account. But chances are you’ll have a large enough taxable that you don’t have to anyway.
Yes, you can use the same Roth IRAs. We do.
Thank you for the prompt response. And as a follow-up question, if I were to the “mega backdoor roth” which as I understand is limited to [54,000 – 403b – 457 – employer match], can that also go into the same Roth IRA account?
WTC,
Newbie on this site that was recommended by a colleague 3 days ago. This is a very popular article.
I have learned so much in few days but have questions. You might have answered thembut honestly did not read every Q&A on this thread.
I own a 401k and my wife as well. We have maxed out contribution 18000 each for 2017.
We do not own traditional IRA or Roth IRA.
Being high earners cannot contribute anything else. How is it ok to place 5500 each in a traditional IRA ? Is there a contribution limit for high earners in all types to tax accounts.
This being said if it is ok…. Are these the correct steps we should follow for 2017 tax year:
1. Open a Traditional IRA and a Roth IRA simultaneously for each of us. (Never used Vanguard but have accounts with Schwab and Scottrade, would that work ? I don’t mind opening with Vanguard)
2. Fund both traditional IRA for both of us with 5500 each.
3. Let it sit there 1 day under a money fund.
4. Transfer to Roth IRA, place in security of choice.
5. Comes Tax filling for 2017 use your example above FORM 8606.
6. Could repeat step 2 to 4 for 2018 tax year as early as Jan 2018.
Thanks again.. Great website I wish I knew about it earlier.
SAMD
What? You didn’t read the previous 1,179 comments? I’m so disappointed.
How is it okay? Uhhhh….because the IRS says it is.
Is there a limit in all types? No, they each have their own limit. $18K as an employee contribution into a 401(k) and $5500 into an IRA for example.
Are these the correct steps? Yes.
Would Schwab and/or Scotttrade work? Yes.
Welcome to the site. I’m glad you’re here. Be sure to thank your friend for making the connection.
What a shame, I know…. I read up about 1175 comments then gave up.
Thanks for the prompt and clear answer.
Will definitely thank my friend.
SAMD
Dear Jim and WCI community,
First of all, I want to thank everyone for sharing your expertise and financial wisdom through this fantastic website. It’s great to know we can help each other.
Second I have a couple of basic questions regarding the Roth IRA ( I would like to apologize in advance if were answered before)
1. Do you automatically reinvest?
2. Any specific investment allocation suggested in this account?
Thanks in advance!
1. Yes, I do automatically reinvest my mutual fund distributions for mutual funds inside tax-protected accounts, including my Roth IRA.
2. I look at all of our retirement accounts as one big account. I think my wife’s Roth IRA is all small value and mine is all REITs if I recall correctly.
Great site!
1. As you wrote on your step 1 above, I understand that I should “hide” all my existing traditional IRA to avoid the pro-rata rule by rolling it into my 401k by December 31. After I do that, does it matter if the traditional IRA account (that got rolled over) remains open and at $0 balance, or should I just close it completely? Are there any benefits to keeping the $0 tIRA account open just in case? I would not get charged a closing fee of the tIRA if I decide to close it.
Just wanted to make sure that having the tIRA at $0 on Dec 31 is all that is necessary to avoid the pro-rata. I do not really need the transaction history of the tIRA, so whether I have access to that history is not as essential to me either.
Thanks!
No it doesn’t matter.
Vanguard just leaves it open so you don’t have to open a new one next year.
I have followed your steps to create Trad and ROTH IRA accounts this year and did everything in vanguard. I made the 2016 contribution in April of 2017 and I’m planning to make the 2017 contribution before the year ends. I just have a question regarding Transferring money from a moderate growth mutual fund (where my current Roth IRA contribution is) to a higher (riskier) mutual fund available in Vanguard. Would I get taxed/charged by transferring the total amount from one mutual fund to another? Or is it better not to transfer the ROTH IRA money from the first mutual fund where I begun to contribute in first place?
Thx a lot in advance.
No tax consequences to swapping mutual funds inside a tax-protected account like an IRA. Vanguard generally doesn’t have any sales or purchase fees either.
I followed the three steps you wrote about above: 1) I transferred my previous tIRA accumulated amounts from all previous years to a 401k. 2) I contributed this year’s $5,500 amount to a tIRA. 3) I transferred the tIRA from step 2 into a Roth IRA. So I now have a 401k and a Roth IRA.
When filling out taxes, how will the IRS know that the value of my tIRAs are $0 as of Dec 31? Vanguard will give me a 1099r form saying my distribution and conversion was $5,500. But I don’t think there is a line item on that 1099 form saying that my tIRA value is $0 at the end of the year. So I was confused when I file taxes (using turbotax) of how to say in form 8606 line 6 about my tIRA values that it is $0 and so there should be no pro-rata taxation of the backdoor Roth?
Thanks!
It goes on Line 6 of 8606.You just say it. You put zero on that line. Nobody else fills it out. Just you.
Can you do the backdoor Roth IRA contribution/conversion between Jan and April 15, 2018 for the 2017 year? Our AGI is approaching the phase-out for direct Roth, and we typically wait to see what it is before contributing. This year, we might be over and would like to do backdoor Roth. However, wouldn’t want to do that if we end up under the limits for straight Roth contribution. Thanks.
Yes, it just makes the 8606 uglier. See this link:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/late-contributions-to-the-backdoor-roth-ira/
I’m a hospital employed physician and max my 403b and 457. I also earn a consulting on the side and since this is self employed income I utilize a SEP IRA to reduce my tax burden.
Question 1: Since I plan on contributing to the SEP IRA annually, and since in order to contribute to the backdoor roth you SEP IRA must be zero, could I zero out my SEP every year and then convert it to a ROTH?
Question 2: I wonder if a back door Roth IRA is a better decision than a SEP for the deferred tax benefits. I know this is hard to answer.
Thanks.
1. Quit using a SEP annually and use a solo 401(k). Problem solved. But yes, you could do a SEP-IRA conversion to your Roth IRA every year if you wanted. I discuss that here: https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/the-mega-backdoor-roth-ira/
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/sep-ira-vs-solo-401k/
2. I would try to do both. If you have to choose, it doesn’t matter if you’re converting both. If you’re not converting the SEP, I wouldn’t bother with the Roth IRA.
Can you put fund a Rollover IRA from your bank account and then convert to Roth or does it have it be traditional IRA to Roth?
Not sure what you’re asking. A rollover IRA can be converted yes. But you don’t “fund” a rollover IRA. I generally recommend against IRAs at banks too.
To be more specific, I have a Rollover IRA at Fidelity with $0 balance. Recently I rolled over entire balance to my 403b at another institution The Fidelity website is allowing me to transfer money from my bank account to the Rollover IRA. I also have option of opening a traditional IRA at Fidelity. In January I plan to put $5500 into an IRA then transfer to my Roth which is also at Fidelity. I wanted to know if I can directly fund the Rollover IRA or if I need to open a traditional IRA and put the $5500 there before converting it to a Roth. I know Rollover IRAs are for rolling over money from other accounts but since I had this account in the first place I wanted to avoid opening a traditional IRA. Thank you for your help.
Oh, I see what you’re saying. So that rollover IRA is just like any other IRA. You could contribute $5,500 to it and then convert that to a Roth IRA.
Thanks for providing this site!
Based on the tax law recently passed, is the backdoor Roth IRA still fine to do in 2018 (for the 2018 contribution year)? Or were there any changes that would affect the whole conversion to a Roth next year?
Yes. I’ll be doing mine on Jan 2/3 of this year.
Great, thanks! I have a retirement plan at work and my income will be over the IRA deduction limit in 2018. So if I were to contribute to a traditional IRA, I would not be able to deduct it. Assuming I have no traditional IRAs (so no pro-rata rule to worry about), is a backdoor Roth better than a traditional nondeductible IRA?
The way I see it, I would not get tax benefits now from a backdoor Roth or a nondeductible traditional IRA, but at least the backdoor Roth lets me withdraw tax-free in retirement. Is it as simple as that and a backdoor Roth is better than a nontraditional tIRA given the choice? Or would there be any benefit to having a nondeductible tIRA over a Roth? (assuming no existing traditional IRAs)
I also would like to do a backdoor roth, but why is my CPA telling me that when I rollover my SEP IRA money into my newly opened Solo 401k, it will result in a taxable event?
Either you’re misunderstanding or your CPA is an idiot. The only “taxable rollover” is a Roth conversion. Are you rolling over/converting that SEP into a Roth solo 401(k)?
Not a Roth Solo 401k, just a regular Solo 401k at ETrade. So sounds like I should be able to roll it over no problem.
I also saw you mention in another thread that you can’t make a contribution to Solo 401k (employee portion) and SEP contribution in the same year. Is that true? Thats what I did last year and what my CPA plans on me doing again this year!
I think you need a second opinion from another CPA about your tax planning. I cannot see any benefit whatsoever to having a SEP-IRA AND a solo 401(k). What benefit do you think you are getting from that?
There’s definitely no disadvantage, I’m going to speak to my CPA about this. I’ve been ok with it because I get free trades in my SEP account. But just wanted to make sure I’m not doing something that the IRS would ding me for.
That’s what I’m saying, I think the IRS may ding you. You certainly don’t get two contribution limits.
I’m planning to do this tomorrow. I’ll open the traditional IRA and then convert. My question is: if I’m married and want to contribute $5500 for me and $5500 for my husband, do I have to open 2 traditional accounts and then convert to 2 Roth accounts? Thanks
Yes. The I in IRA stands for Individual. So two accounts, two 8606s.
Fidelity told me this afternoon I can’t find 2017 Traditional IRA until 1/2/18 because financial systems are closed until then.
Yep, you’ve got to wait for markets to open to do some things.
Hi WCI,
I’m much older (43) than your average commenter and therefore have a longer, more confusing (for me) financial/tax history.
Dual physician income, have been investing in IRAs since high school. In 1998, rolled all tIRAs into Roth IRA (in med school, no income at the time). During residency 2000-2003 I *think* we each invested in Roth IRAs. Not sure if Roth or non-deductible tIRAin 2003 as the last 4 months of that year we bumped up to attending salaries and may have bern above the Roth limits. I do know that since 2004 we have maxed out non-deductible tIRAs (in addition to 401k, HSA, and profit sharing options).
Currently, my tIRA $69,768/husband tIRA 76,102
We want to roll these into our groups 401k, but aren’t sure about the 2000-2003 period of time and if the tIRA contributions were deductible or not. Our 2017 tax report was 71 pages long and I don’t even know where to look… that is even if I can find the 2000-2003 tax reports stored away in the basement after several moves.
I’ve been following WCI for 4 years now and am ashamed I don’t have the Backdoor Roth IRA process instituted as of yet. What can I do to get this off my things to do list for 2018? Try rolling all of it into my 401k and hope any of it that was non-deductible is identified? Then take that amount through the Backdoor process and pay taxes on the earnings.
If only I knew at age 29, what I know now…
Hmmmmmm…..you’ve got a real issue there. You will either need to figure out a way to “separate your basis” or you’ll just need to convert the entire IRA to a Roth IRA or you’ll need to not do Backdoor Roth IRAs.
First thing, figure out your basis. You’re going to have to dig through old records to do this.
Second thing, see what happens if you roll this thing into your 401(k). They probably don’t accept non-deductible money as a rollover. So the only money that can go in there is the tax-deferred money, effectively separating your basis that you can then convert tax-free.
Might be worth hiring help to assist you with this. No reason to be ashamed though. Most docs don’t even know about backdoor Roth IRAs, much less worry about them.
Well, here I am 9 months later…
I have found all the documents to determine the exact amount I contributed to my non deductible tIRA over the last 15 years (basis).
I posted the above situation on the WCI forum and received the following advice: 1. Isolate the basis. ✅ 2. Take the pretax growth part of the account and roll it into my workplace 401k (checked and this is accepted). 3. Roth conversion of the basis.
This seemed to make perfect sense, but I wanted to check with our CPA first. Initially, he suggested he didn’t think this would work. I pushed him with the evidence others were doing it this way. He was going to take the situation higher up the chain in the accounting firm. We are waiting for a response.
Does the WCI or (anyone out there) feel this makes sense? Or have experience doing this? Or better yet have the tax form info I could show my CPA?
Please don’t say switch CPAs to someone who knows what they are doing. For complicated business reasons I won’t be switching as long as I am a partner in my group of 50 docs.
Thanks for any help.
Yes. It makes sense. I’ve done it. See this post:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/how-to-get-your-tax-exempt-tsp-money-in-to-a-roth-ira/
What tax form did you want to see? I’ve probably got one, but it’ll be from 2010
Can I contribute money on a monthly basis to my traditional ira and then transfer it to my Roth a few days later (every month I mean)? I can’t afford a large sum early in the year but I do want my money working for me in the Roth. Are there tax ramifications? I’m using vanguard, do they charge per transfer? Am I missing an angle?
Thanks.
Yes, but I probably wouldn’t undergo that much hassle. There’s no charge or tax ramifications, but here’s the way I look at it:
If you make enough money that you have to contribute to a Roth IRA via the backdoor, you make enough to lump sum the $5,500.
The limit is $120K single, $189K married. $5,500 is either 4.6% or 2.9% of those incomes (which are MAGIs not even gross income) and you should be saving 20% for retirement. At most, you should have to save up for 3 months before lump summing the whole thing. If you’re having to drip money into a Backdoor Roth IRA, you’ve probably got a savings rate problem.
True, but I just switched to an attending salary and haven’t had uninvested money to move to a roth all at once. Next tax year a lump sum shouldn’t be an issue, but now I’d rather not have money just sitting around while it accrues up to $11,000 (for me and my wife). Plus we are splitting the extra salary money for a rainy day fund as well. Thanks for the info.
Got it.