By Dr. Jim Dahle, WCI Founder
Ahh, you have finally made it. After four years in college, four years in medical school, 3-5 more years in residency, and 1-3 more in fellowship, you're finally making the big bucks. You've just started getting your first five-figure paychecks and you feel like you have some money that you don't need to spend on this month's necessities. You've got a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of student loans hanging over your head, a big mortgage, and even a little bit of credit card debt. But you're also looking at a huge tax bill, and besides, you don't want to work forever, so you've been studying up on 401(k)s and IRAs. You are financially at the place to ask yourself if you should pay off student loans or invest.
But how do you decide when to pay down loans and when to invest, especially now that the pandemic-era student loan holiday is over?
Should I Pay Off Student Loans or Invest?
It turns out it can be a pretty personal decision, and there are a lot of factors that come into play—including loan interest rates, current interest rates and inflation, expected returns on your portfolio, your current tax bracket, tax-sheltered accounts available to you, your attitude about debt, and your personal risk profile. I'll first discuss seven factors to think about, list 10 rules of thumb to follow, and finally give you 11 specific recommendations to help you decide when to pay off student loans and when to invest.
#1 Student Loan Interest Rates
The higher the interest rate on your loans, the faster you should try to pay them off. Remember to look at the after-tax rate of the loans. For instance, if you make less than a Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) of $75,000-$90,000 ($155,000-$185,000 married) in 2023, the interest on your student loans is deductible. If your marginal tax bracket (federal plus state) is 27% and your loan interest rate is 8% AND your interest is fully deductible, then your after-tax rate is 5.84%.
8%*(1-27%) = 5.84%.
Part or all of your mortgage interest may also be deductible for you.
Credit cards and car loans are not deductible. For many Americans and even many physicians, their best investment, no matter their tax bracket, is paying down high-interest-rate consumer debt. If your credit card debt is accumulating interest at 22%, you should pay that down as your first priority. That's a guaranteed 22% investment. You won't find that anywhere—with or without a tax break.
On the other hand, many of my med school classmates could refinance their student loans at less than 1% back in 2003. Although Dave Ramsey recommends paying off all your debts ASAP, many wise people are willing to carry non-callable debt at very low interest rates because of the opportunity costs you would give up by paying it off. What's the opportunity? It's the opportunity to borrow at 1% while earning 5% or even 10% on your investments. That arbitrage on $200,000 could be worth as much as $18,000 a year. That's not risk-free or tax-free, of course, but it can work out pretty well.
Although student loan interest rates have risen in the last year or two, refinancing still could be the right move for you. If you go through our affiliate links in the chart below, you will get the lowest rates available while also getting hundreds of dollars in cash back.
† Bonus includes cash rebates and value of free course. Borrowers who refinance more than $60,000 in student loans using the WCI links will be enrolled in The White Coat Investor’s flagship course, Fire Your Financial Advisor: ATTENDING for free ($799 value). Borrowers will still receive the amazing cash rebates that WCI has negotiated with each lender. Offer valid for loan applications submitted from May 1, 2021 through October 31, 2025. Free course must be claimed within 90 days of loan disbursement. To claim free course enrollment, visit https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/RefiBonus.
#2 Current Interest Rates and Inflation
Hypothetically, if your loans are at 3%, inflation is at 4%, and your savings account is paying 5%, it is easy to see mathematically why you might not want to prioritize paying down that loan. Let me give you an example. In 1993, I took out a $5,000 loan for undergraduate studies. It was a great loan from my state with fantastic terms. It was 8% interest, but the interest didn't accumulate and I didn't have to make payments while I was in college . . . in medical school . . . in residency . . . or in military service. I paid off the loan in full in one lump-sum payment when I got out of the military in 2010, just before it started accumulating interest. I spent 1993 dollars, and I paid it back with the same amount of 2010 dollars. Of course, 2010 dollars were only worth 66 cents of a 1993 dollar. In essence, I borrowed $5,000 and only paid back $3,300, and I got to use the money for 17 years for free. Moral of the story? When you're borrowing money at rates below current levels of inflation or the long-term inflation rate, you might want to think twice before rushing to pay it back. The CPI year-over-year inflation rate can be found here.
Likewise, when you're borrowing money at rates below guaranteed safe investment rates (such as money market funds, CDs, or FDIC-insured savings accounts), you might not want to pay it back too quickly. Remember, of course, to adjust both rates for your current tax situation. Borrowing money at a non-deductible interest rate of 5% to invest at 6% (4% after-tax) isn't exactly a winning proposition. This is particularly a problem at times of low interest rates. If inflation is over 5% but you still can't get more than about 1% in a risk-free investment, then borrowing at 3% to invest in safe investments probably doesn't make sense.
#3 Expected Returns
I mentioned earlier that paying off a loan with 22% interest is a no-brainer. That's because the expected returns on investments available to you are nowhere near that. Don't believe me? Imagine a world where 22% after-inflation returns were available to investors. You could save 25% of your income for seven years and retire. Do you know anyone who did that? Me neither. Although estimates differ depending on who you ask, most experts agree that you can expect nominal (pre-inflation) stock market returns of 5%-10% over the long run and bond returns of 2%-5%. Naturally, those returns aren't guaranteed. It's one thing to borrow money at 3% and invest it at a guaranteed 5%. It's entirely different to borrow it at 8% and invest it in the stock market that may or may not beat that return.
An enlightening poll on the Bogleheads forum once asked at what loan interest rate an investor ought to invest instead of paying down the loan. The mean answer was 5%, but there was quite a bit of variation from 2% to 10%. I think 5% is about right. Most loans at an interest rate above that should be given a pretty high priority.
#4 Current Tax Bracket
Two investors might both have completely deductible 8% mortgages but differ in one important aspect. The first lives in Texas, and they are in the 12% federal tax bracket and the 0% state bracket. The second, in California, is in the 35% federal bracket and the 9% state bracket. The after-tax interest rate for the first is 7.04%, but it is only 4.32% for the second. The second might very reasonably conclude that they should invest while the first might decide to pay down the mortgage. That high tax bracket investor might also decide to invest instead of paying down the loan because they save a higher percentage of income by contributing to their 401(k) or other accounts. The Texan only gets a 12% tax break for 401(k) contributions, but the Californian gets a 44% tax break. Conclusion: The higher your tax bracket, the less anxious you should be to pay down debt over investing in a tax-sheltered account, especially tax-deductible debt.
#5 Available Tax-Sheltered Accounts
We saw above that the tax code can really mess with the loan vs. investment decision. The plethora of tax shelters available makes the decision even more complicated. For instance, I might prefer to invest in a 401(k) where I get a big tax break before paying down a 6% loan, but I might also prefer to pay down the loan before investing in a taxable account. A resident who expects to soon be in a high tax bracket might prefer to get more money into a Roth IRA where it will never be taxed again rather than pay down their loans. Even college savings accounts, UGMA accounts, and Health Savings Accounts offer some type of tax break to the investor. The more tax breaks available to you as an investor, the more you should lean toward investing instead of paying down loans.
#6 Attitude Toward Debt
Many of us hate debt, no matter the interest rate. I was listening to Dave Ramsey a number of years ago when a caller asked if he should use his spare cash to pay off his mortgage. Dave's suggestion was to pay it off. Then, in a few months, if he really missed it, he could take out another one. Obviously, nobody does that. There is a wonderful feeling associated with not owing anyone anything. Owning a house free and clear of the bank and knowing it can't be foreclosed on (as long as you pay your property taxes, that is) provides a great deal of security. Not having student loans also provides financial freedom in that you need less cash flow to service them and thus can work fewer hours, take a more attractive job that happens to pay less, or retire earlier.
There is also the behavioral factor. Many of us say we'll invest instead of paying down a loan, but in reality, we spend the money. Obviously, paying down a loan is more likely to help your bottom line than blowing your cash on something materialistic or fleeting. The more you hate debt, the more you should lean toward paying off your loans, even if the interest rates are reasonably low. If you think debt is the best thing since sliced bread, I suggest you read the tale of “Market-Timer,” a Bogleheads poster who managed as a grad student to lose a few hundred thousand dollars borrowed on credit cards and invested on margin in stock market futures.
#7 Personal Risk Profile
Investors differ in their need, ability, and desire to take risk. If you are a relatively conservative investor, close to retirement, or simply don't need to take on much risk (when you discover you've won the game, stop playing), you should pay off loans before investing. The less risky your portfolio and, thus, the lower the expected returns on it, the less sense it makes to carry loans while investing. For this reason, I think it is stupid to carry a mortgage into retirement. It is foolish for anyone to take on more risk than they can handle or than they need to take. As Warren Buffett likes to say, only when the tide goes out do you see who's been swimming naked.
Now that we have discussed some factors to consider and before we get into specific recommendations, I want to give you a list of guiding principles and rules of thumb to think about when deciding between paying down student loans and investing:
Paying Off Debt vs. Investing Guiding Principles
#1 Don't Leave Part of Your Salary on the Table
If your employer gives you a match in a retirement account like a 401(k) or 403(b), then be sure to get it. Not getting it is like rejecting part of your salary. Even if you have terrible, nasty debts, I would still contribute enough to get your full match. Think about it. If you get a 100% match on the first 3% of your salary (let's say that's $6,000), you contribute to the 401(k) and then you get an extra $6,000. Assuming immediate vesting, even if you turned around and pulled all that money out of the 401(k) and sent it to your lender, you would only pay a 10% penalty ($1,200) plus the taxes you would pay either way. If we assume a 25% marginal tax rate, that strategy would net you
$12,000 – 25% * $12,000 – $1,200 = $7,800
vs. $6,000 – 25% * $6,000 = $4,500
That's an extra $7,800 – $4,500 = $3,300. That's a no-brainer. Get the match.
#2 Don't Pay Off Loans Someone Else Will Pay Off
If you are going for Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) (meaning you made lots of tiny IBR/PAYE/REPAYE payments during residency or fellowship and are now employed full-time by a 501(c)3 anticipating tax-free forgiveness after 120 monthly payments), then don't send in extra money to your federal student loan lender. I've traditionally advised people to keep a “PSLF Side Fund” in a taxable account that can then be directed toward the student loans if PSLF gets changed and you're not grandfathered in or if you just don't want to work for a nonprofit anymore. However, it doesn't make much sense to invest in taxable if you still have tax-protected space like a 401(k) or Backdoor Roth IRA available to you. I'd probably put it there. Sure, it's not going to allow you to instantly pay off those student loans in the event of a PSLF catastrophe, but you'll end up wealthier for preferentially using the tax-protected account.
#3 Stop Digging
Here's another somewhat obvious point. When you realize you're in a deep hole (debt), stop digging! I can't believe how many people are wondering how to get their student loans paid off while still borrowing money to buy other stuff. If it isn't a modest house or a practice, you probably shouldn't be buying it on borrowed money. That includes cars, vacations, living expenses, boats, pets, or anything else. Professional school will make you debt-numb. Wake up to its wealth-destroying effects on your life! Do you have $400,000 in student loans? Then, you're likely one of the poorest people in the world. The guy living under the bridge is richer than you. His net worth is $0. You should be driving a beater and living somewhere that feels very middle-class.
#4 Paying Off High-Interest Rate Debt Is a Wonderful, Guaranteed Investment
If you have high-interest debt, chances are good that you're not going to find an investment that will make that much money. You don't borrow money at 20% in order to invest because the risks you would have to take to attempt to beat that return are substantial. If you have debt at 20%, you should be paying it off as a major priority. In fact, you can probably lower that figure quite a bit. If you've got 8%+ debt, you're probably better off paying that down instead of investing. That's a guaranteed 8% investment. I wish I could find more of those.
#5 How Long Do You Want to Be in Debt?
Personally, I think you ought to have your education paid for within 2-5 years of completing your training. You're really not done with med school until you've paid for it. If you go much beyond five years, it will feel like a noose around your neck. You could have had the military pay for it and you would have been done in four years. To be out of debt that quickly, you're going to have to direct a substantial portion of your income to it. Calculate how much that is, and allocate that much toward the debt. Invest the rest.
But what if that doesn't allow you to max out all the accounts you want to max out? Tough cookies. Take more money from your lifestyle spending (i.e., Live Like A Resident), not from your debt pay-down money. That's not negotiable. You're getting out of debt in 2-5 years, come hell or high water. Now, if you want to keep your student loans for five years to max out some retirement accounts when you could get out of debt in two years without maxing them out, that's OK with me. But dragging your loans out for 15 years? I promise you're going to regret that. Those who lived like a resident when they should have will be financially independent by the time those who dragged out their loans are finally done paying for school. How are you going to save for your kids' schooling when you haven't paid for yours yet?
Once your student loans are gone, you can ask yourself the same question about your mortgage. Do you really want to be paying for that stack of bricks for 15-30 years? Figure out when you want to be done paying and make payments large enough to be done by then. Don't assume you can make big huge payments later (although there's a good chance you will, thanks to inflation, but certainly no guarantee).
#6 It Isn't Just About Comparing Rates of Return
Some people make this topic way too simple. They say, “If your investment is going to earn more than the interest rate of your student loans, then you should carry the loans and invest.” That ignores way too much. It ignores risk. It ignores the effects of taxes. And it ignores other important financial issues like asset protection, estate planning, and insurance costs.
Risk
If you can get 8% investing and have 7% loans, you should invest, right? No. That 7% is risk-free, and if you want a risk-free investment, you might only be earning 1%-2%. If you adjust for risk, paying off those loans is going to be the right choice. Now, if you're comparing an expected 8% return to a guaranteed 2% return, well, that's a little easier argument to make.
Another important consideration with risk is your need to take it. If you're a 55-year-old doctor with a net worth of $100,000, you have a substantial need to take risk (including leverage risk) if you expect to retire with anything close to your accustomed standard of living. If you're a 45-year-old doctor with a net worth of $4 million, you can afford the luxury of being debt-free. This consideration had a substantial effect on our decision to pay off our very low interest rate mortgage in less than seven years.
Taxes
Some types of debt are tax-deductible, and some types of investments are taxable at various rates. To compare apples to apples, you have to tax-adjust both sides of the comparison. You have to know your marginal tax rates (and there is likely more than one). If your marginal rate on ordinary income is 35% (you can figure this out with tax software) and your debt interest is fully deductible (you can figure this out with tax software too), then a 4% debt is really a (1%-35%)*4% = 2.6% debt. If your investment return is taxed at your marginal tax rate and earns 6%, then it is really 3.9% after-tax. If your investment return is taxed at a 15% long-term capital gains rate, then that 6% return is really 5.1%. Your marginal tax rate on the investment could be even lower if you can defer some of those gains (such as with a tax-efficient stock mutual fund) or if you have offsetting depreciation (such as with a real estate investment). And it would be zero if you're investing in a tax-protected account. Now, make your comparison.
In addition to those simple calculations, we also have to consider the other tax benefits of retirement accounts. For the typical attending physician in their peak earnings years, that mostly means a tax-deferred account like a 401(k). A typical physician should expect a tax arbitrage between their marginal rate at contribution and their effective withdrawal tax rate (35% and 15% would not be unusual). That has the effect of boosting your investment return significantly as you basically started with a free 20% return in the account. In addition, that money isn't taxed as it grows. That tax-protected growth may boost your return by another 0.5%-2% per year. And if you leave it to your heirs, it can be stretched for another 10 years. That tax benefit is awfully hard to pass up in order to get out of debt a few months earlier. Similar principles hold for a tax-free account like a Roth IRA, minus the tax arbitrage.
For the new attending physician, keep in mind you could delay retirement account contributions. Instead of contributing to the 401(k) or HSA in August, you could pay down debt in August and contribute in December. You have until April of next year to get in your IRA, SEP-IRA, and employer individual 401(k) contributions. Yes, you lose the benefit of having that money start compounding in a tax-protected way right away, but at least you don't lose that tax-protected “space” forever.
Clearly, it makes a lot more sense to carry debt to invest in a tax-protected account than to invest in a taxable account. When you're maxing out all your tax-protected accounts, that's a good time to take a look at the debts you have left and see if throwing some money at them would be wise. A 401(k) is a lot more valuable than most people think it is, and it is most valuable for high-income professionals.
Asset Protection
You should be familiar with the asset protection laws in your state, as it can have a serious effect on this decision. For example, in Texas and Florida, you have strong homestead laws, and it can make a lot of sense to pay down a mortgage since that money is protected from creditors. In my state of Utah, that would not be so smart since only a small portion of home equity is protected. But our retirement accounts get 100% protection. While a doc in Texas might choose to pay down a mortgage, a doc in Utah could, just as logically, choose to invest in a cash balance plan instead—even if expected returns were similar.
You can be assured that your creditors aren't going to take your student loans away from you. But money you use to pay them down also can't be taken away from you, and since they're not going away in bankruptcy, paying them off instead of investing in taxable is a smart asset protection move. Bear in mind that asset protection isn't nearly as important as most docs think it is. The risk of having a significant above policy limits judgment against you that isn't reduced on appeal is incredibly small.
Estate Planning
Retirement accounts are very useful for estate planning. By properly designating beneficiaries, that money doesn't have to go through probate. Of course, if you expect to die any time soon, you probably don't want to pay off your student loans, as they are generally forgiven at death (if you've refinanced, be sure to read the fine print to see if they're assessed against the value of your estate). Similar issues exist with disability as most student loans are forgiven in the event of permanent disability.
Cash Flow and Insurance
One of the best benefits of paying off debt is that your cash flow needs are lower. That allows you to carry less life and disability insurance to protect that cash flow. That could be worth hundreds or thousands per month.
#7 If Unsure, Split the Difference
As you can see, sometimes an invest vs. pay off debt dilemma is very straightforward to resolve. Other times, it is complex, murky, and dependent even on your emotional feelings about debt. In those times when you're truly unsure what to do and a discussion with those closest to you doesn't help, just split the difference. Send some of the money into your student loan lender and invest the rest and realize that you're choosing between two very good things to do. What you do matters far less than the percentage of your income going toward building wealth instead of being spent.
#8 Do Both by Living Like a Resident
Better yet, do both. I get this question most frequently from brand-new attending physicians. As they enter their career, they have so many great uses for money but only so much income to put toward those great causes. Think about a typical new attending and their uses for money:
- Expanded emergency fund
- Roth conversions of any tax-deferred savings from training
- Max out retirement accounts
- Pay off credit card debt
- Pay off auto loans
- Pay off student loans
- Save up a down payment for a home
- Save up a practice buy-in
- Take a real vacation
- Upgrade the beater
The new attending simply has to prioritize what is most important and then take any disposable income and work their way down the list until it runs out. However, that new attending will make it much further down the list if spending is minimized. That's why I encourage new attendings to live like a resident for 2-5 years out of training. If you can earn $300,000 while living on $50,000, that's $250,000 (OK, perhaps $175,000 after tax) that can go toward building wealth. Even $300,000 in student loans won't last two years if you are throwing $15,000 a month at them. A little sacrifice during the early career (that doesn't even really feel like a sacrifice yet because you have not yet lived on an attending income) will allow incredible financial freedom and perhaps even financial independence by mid-career.
To be honest, the most financially successful people I see are not choosing between their student loans and investing. They are doing both. At the same time. And doing both well. The blogosphere and social media love to debate these two options, but the reality is that the same traits that lead someone to save a lot of their money and invest it well also lead them to pay off their debts rapidly.
#9 Use the Power of Focus
Focusing on one goal at a time is a very powerful technique. The debt snowball method emphasizes focus and momentum. With this method, all available income is aimed at your smallest debt while minimum payments are made toward other debts. When that first debt is paid off, the borrower feels the momentum and redirects all that income toward the next smallest debt until it is paid off. Behaviorally, it is much easier to stick with a plan when you are doing one thing and you feel like you are accomplishing it rapidly. Since personal finance is 80% personal (behavioral) and only 20% finance (math), harnessing the power of behavioral finance to reach your goals seems wise.
#10 Use Student Loan Payoff as a Practice Run for Financial Independence
For a typical doctor, financial independence is a 15-30 year goal. Paying off student loans can be a 2-5 year goal. Aside from that difference, reaching the goals involves the exact same principles and discipline. In this respect, paying off your student loans rapidly is a trial run for becoming financially independent rapidly. When I see someone dragging out their student loans for 10, 15, or even 20 years, I worry they'll never become financially independent.
Priorities to Consider When Balancing Paying Down Student Loans vs. Investing
I suggest you use the following list of loan/investing priorities when deciding between paying down student loans and investing:
- Get your match. Be sure to put enough into your employer-provided retirement accounts to get your entire available match. That's part of your salary
- Decide how long you want to have student loans (generally 2-5 years). Figure out the minimum amount to pay each month to be done by that date. Additional payments toward this goal can be moved down this list depending on the interest rate. Obviously, if you are going for PSLF or IDR forgiveness, don't pay extra on your federal student loans.
- Pay off high-interest debt. Any credit cards or consumer debt at 8% or higher should be paid off ASAP. Honestly, you should have never accumulated this. Live like a resident until it is gone. If you have 8%+ private student loans, refinance them ASAP and then you can move them down this list a bit.
- Invest in tax-protected accounts. If you are a resident, max out your personal and spousal Roth IRAs. If you are an attending, max out your 401(k), SEP-IRA, HSA, and any other retirement account that allows you full marginal tax rate deductions.
- Pay off non-deductible loans between 5%-8% (i.e., graduate student loans).
- Consider investing in other accounts that offer a tax break, such as 529s (kid's college accounts), UGMAs, and Backdoor Roth IRAs.
- Invest in risky assets in a taxable account (stock mutual funds or investment properties).
- Pay off loans with after-tax rates of 3%-5%.
- Pay off loans with after-tax rates below 3%.
- Don't carry any debt into retirement. Losing the safety net of ongoing employment income makes this a risky affair. It's one thing to get foreclosed on when you're 30. It's entirely different when you're 70.
If you have not looked into refinancing your student loans lately, you might be surprised to learn that you can get a better deal than your current rate. Use the affiliate links in the chart below to get the best rates available and hundreds of dollars in cash back, all while helping to support the site.
† Bonus includes cash rebates and value of free course. Borrowers who refinance more than $60,000 in student loans using the WCI links will be enrolled in The White Coat Investor’s flagship course, Fire Your Financial Advisor: ATTENDING for free ($799 value). Borrowers will still receive the amazing cash rebates that WCI has negotiated with each lender. Offer valid for loan applications submitted from May 1, 2021 through October 31, 2025. Free course must be claimed within 90 days of loan disbursement. To claim free course enrollment, visit https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/RefiBonus.
What do you think? How did you decide whether to pay off your student loans early? Comment below!
[This updated post was originally published in 2011.]
Can we pay part of our daughter’s medical student loan about $96k with cash amount?
Or any other suggestions. Thanks
Sure. Why wouldn’t you be able to pay off a loan with cash? Not sure what type of suggestions you’re looking for.
We meant if we invest that amount for daughter will it be benifial vs. pay off loan. I haven’t seen any post regarding paying off that much amount at one time. Also will it be better if we give that amount (off course the maximum gift) to daughter each year so SHE can pay off her loan for her
tax benefits
Thanks for your advise
Investing vs paying off loans depends on what the investments earn. Without a crystal ball showing future earnings, I can’t predict that. Paying off the loan is a guaranteed return.
Be aware of gift tax rules- you can each give $14K to her each year without starting to use up your estate tax exemption. Whether you pay the loans or give her the money to pay the loans, you have the same issues.
The amount has little to do with anything. It’s the same comparative issue whether you’re paying off $10K or $100K.
Thanks. You answered the question that was confusing for me
Do you still recommend paying of 5-8% loans prior to investing in a 529?
Our first baby is on its way so just trying to plan ahead. Paying down our student loans (~300k) as fast as we can but current projection is still that we’re about 4 years away from payoff date.
What are your thoughts on waiting on the 529 until then? Can we open one and have grandparents invest in it for birthdays, etc., while we are still paying the loans down?
Thanks!
I wouldn’t start paying for my kid’s schooling until I’d paid for mine.
Yes, you can open one and have grandparents invest in it, but I’ll tell you this- kids don’t like to get 529 contributions for presents.
great advice
Haha. Well I figured I knew the answer already, but thanks for the reply!
Hello,
I’m currently a PGY-4 Gastroenterology fellow, my girlfriend is a child psychologist
I have 200,000 in loans, she has 180,000 and has a PSLF. I am not sure if I will go the academic route or into private practice.
Income: Mine 65,000 + 15,000 from moonlighting, hers 60,000.
I currently have 10,000 in a ROTH-IRA, having been putting 3000/year, but this year will start to max at 5500/year. I have a 403B through work that invests 3% of each paycheck, so I am saving 16% for retirement currently. Girlfriend plans to open 403B through school this fall, and she also has a pension.
I am currently paying 500/month via IBR on my loan, which is just keeping the debt at pay. This will likely jump to 700/month the next time I renew.
Currently I am saving for an engagement ring (done) and a wedding (just started will need 30,000 between each of us, this has been where a large portion of my moonlighting salary goes towards.
I will be able to moonlight substantially more next year so my gross income will jump from 85 to 100, then to ~110, then to about 300 when attending.
No credit card debt or auto payments at this time.
My current plan is:
1) Start maxing out ROTH-IRA at 5500/year
2) Invest 3%/paycheck into 403b, increase by 1%/year, with the increase in my moonlighting salary next year I will be able to save 20%/year for retirement.
3) save for important life events (wedding, travel (nothing too luxurious)
4) pay loans slightly above the minimum with plan to refinance and pay aggressively when I am an attending if in private practice, or PSLF if I stay at a 403b.
Anything else I should be considering?
I’d put more in the 403B and toward “life needs” rather than put more toward the loans at least until you decide whether you will work at a 501(c)3 or not.
Hi,
I am very new to investing/and just learning how to save money at 30 years old, :/ so this blog is extremely helpful (but I’m still a little confused, so would really appreciate any help).
I am a therapist in private practice and currently have $59,000 (current principal balance) in GRAD Student Loans (ranging from 2009-2011), with $5,000 in accrued interest over the last 7 years. As of today, I have paid $0.00 to the principal balance, and have paid $1330 towards interest since 2009. (I am also on an income-driven repayment plan with my loans.) My interest rates are fixed at 6.55%, (with the exception of one loan for $11,000 fixed at 7.65%).
As of today, I have paid off ALL credit card debt and undergraduate student loan debt.
I have also been able to save $45,000 towards my emergency fund and $0 toward any investments. (I actually just found out about a SEP-IRA today!!-woops)
I would like to start contributing to a SEP-IRA soon (possibly by April 2017), since I have my own Private Practice as of August 2015 and no retirement fund. (I opened a PLLC in August 2015.) My current income (before tax) is roughly around $100,000-$105,000 (and I have been in private practice for 1 year). (I also write off majority of my expenses. When I did my taxes last year, my return amount was almost exactly the amount I paid in taxes for the year.)
After work office and personal expenses are paid, ie. office rent ($1300), EXPENSIVE NYC apartment rent ($2500), food, bills, dog expenses, office expenses, travel, health insurance, phone, etc., I probably have roughly $1500-2000 left over each month to put towards savings, or maybe in this case, towards my student loans.
My end goals would be:
1) To maintain a safe and chunky emergency fund, (as my income varies and is not guaranteed, and the costs of living alone in NYC are extremely expensive).
2) To start contributing to a SEP-IRA account- (I’m not sure what amount is recommended here, given my current earnings and financial situation with my loans.)
3) To somehow pay off this Student Loan debt, (as it’s driving me bonkers) but also have a secure cushion in case I have issues with office/home rent and my business slows down. (I get very nervous about that!)
Thanks again! Any help would be truly truly appreciated.
***Typo- Student Loan Debt is $59,000 (6.5%-7.55% fixed rates)- After paying off one of these loans, the current balance is $64,000 (with $5000 in accrued interest). Overtime, the unpaid interest totaled roughly $11,700.00***
*** In addition to this FedLoan, I have another Grad Loan from Navient for $10,000 (however the rate for this one is only 2.65% with the exception of one loan at 6.8% for $4500). This is also an income based repayment plan, and I have currently paid off about $4000 over time – loan was originally around $14,000***
Total student graduate loan debt= $74,000
Hi Jane. Welcome to the site.
What is your plan with the student loans? Are you planning to pay them off or go for forgiveness? It doesn’t appear PSLF is an option, so paying them off is probably best unless you really want to drag them out another 13-18 years and then have a tax bill for the forgiveness anyway. $74K seems pretty manageable to me with $105K of income. A few thoughts on your situation, perhaps worth exactly what you paid for them.
# 1 Consider leaving New York. There are some areas in the country where it is a much more difficult battle to reach financial freedom. New York and California are two of them. If you’re wedded to New York, fine, but realize that it will have a significant impact on the rest of your financial life- crummier cars, fewer vacations, more years working etc.
# 2 Unless you really think forgiveness is for you, then refinance your darn loans. https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/student-loan-refinancing/ The rates you’re paying are ridiculous compared to what is available.
# 3 Individual 401(k)s are generally a better choice than a SEP-IRA. https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/sep-ira-vs-solo-401k/
# 4 Given the cost of living, boosting your income is likely to be at least part of the solution to your financial woes. Maybe that’s seeing more patients/clients, maybe it is raising prices, maybe it is adding evening or weekend hours, maybe it is a side job or business. But there are two ends to the equation. You can either earn more or spend less, and sometimes it is much easier to do one than the other.
# 5 I sense a significant lack of urgency with regards to your finances. Without making you feel desperate or hopeless, I’d love to somehow give that to you. For instance, you talk about wanting to make sure you have a cushion for emergencies. Well, guess what? You already had a $74K emergency. Time to use that emergency fund to get rid of it and then cut your lifestyle to the bone until you’ve cleaned it up. https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/your-debt-emergency/ You also seem somewhat clueless with regards to retirement savings. A general recommendation for a non-physician is about 15% of gross to retirement (I tell docs 20%). In your case, that’s about $16K a year, or something like $1400 a month, or most of what you think you can clear up to build wealth. That’s all above and beyond paying off student loans, saving up down payments, saving for college etc. Finally, I see that your debt management for the last 7 years has been lackadaisical. Not only did you carry credit card balances (you don’t need me to tell you that’s dumb) but you’ve basically made minimal traction on the student loans in 7 years. I guess if I had $100K in student loans (or whatever you had to start with) and a salary of $100K, I’d be trying to put at least $20K a year toward them, paying them off in 5 years, rather than looking for minimum payment plans where I wouldn’t be paying them down very fast.
Normal is to have student loans. Normal is to carry them for years. Normal is to be broke. Don’t be normal.
HI,
Thank you for your reply. I am planning to stay in NYC, and will definitely look into refinancing my loans, as I don’t believe loan forgiveness is an option for me.
I have only been making $80-100,000 in the last year, given I became licensed in December 2013, and worked at a clinic making $38-40,000 from July 2014-July 2015. I also worked part-time working under a therapist prior to starting my practice. I started making more money in the last year, (why I did not apply much of my income to graduate loans). Instead, I worked hard to fully pay off all of my undergraduate loans and any credit card debt. I no longer have any debt in that department- only (“only”) $74,000 in graduate loan debt.
More questions******
1) If I refinance my loans, what would happen then?
2) Given I have $45-50,000 in savings… do you recommend I keep in my personal bank account as it is, throw it in ALLY Bank, or do I take ‘some’ or ‘all’ of it, and apply it to my graduate loan debt? I am afraid to do this because I worry about not having any savings, as this is my first time living on my own and paying a lot of money for both an office and apartment in NYC.
3) Also, in regards to the retirement fund (I know you recommend 401k over SEP IRA), do I start investing NOW or wait until I have paid off ALL or SOME of this graduate loan debt???
Thanks again!
You have $50K in saving paying nothing and you’re paying 6%+ toward student loans?
I would put most of that $50K toward the student loans today and refinance the rest. The benefit of refinancing is a lower interest rate, so you can pay them off faster. So that’ll leave you with something like $30K in loans. I’d try to pay that off over the next 1 year, 2 at most, so I’d take a variable 5 year loan to get the lowest possible rate.
I think it is probably okay to delay your retirement savings a year to get rid of the debt, but there is no right answer to this question. Certainly I’d do both before I left $50K earning 1% at Ally (or less where ever it is now). You’re choosing between better and best and no one really knows which is which except in retrospect.
Lastly, I read your article about refinancing— I see there are many options- are there two companies highly recommend given my current situation? And is it better to refinance in 5, 10 or 15 years? Thanks!
I highly recommend them all, otherwise I wouldn’t list them. It only takes a couple of minutes to get a rate quote, so why not get the initial rate quote from 3 or 4 and then apply to the one with the lowest quote?
Is this a good option for refinancing?
Monthly Payment
$1,197.52
No. of Payments
60 Months
VARIABLE APR 1,2
4.65%
Thanks
*desperate Jane* :/
4.65% variable isn’t great. I bet if you took out a smaller loan (by paying off a big chunk of the debt with your $50K) you’d see a better rate from most lenders. Like I said, apply to several and see which one gives you the best rate.
Ok thanks. I guess I asked because 2 of them said they run my credit so I didn’t want to gain any hard inquiries!! But I’ll look into it more tonight. In regards to the 50k, I guess I worry because my line of work is so unpredictable (what isn’t right!?), but I imagine if I use 30k towards loans and keep 20k in savings as an emergency fund, I should feel secure. Do you think that’s a good split? Thanks again. This blog is so helpful. Can’t wait to share it!
You certainly need no more than 3 months of expenses in an emergency fund. I’d probably go even less in your situation. $20K seems like plenty if that’s what you’re comfortable with.
What are you planning to use credit for in the next six months that an inquiry or two is a big deal? I’m working on getting my financial life to a place where I don’t care what my credit score is!
Yes I totally agree! I guess because I’m trying to get the lowest interest rate with refinancing my loans, that I am trying to prevent any hArd inquiries from affecting my score. Right now I’m in the 720ish range and have not received any quotes less than 4.75, with the exception of one company at 4.25%. Do you think I should pay off a large chunk of my grad loans (say 30k), prior to applying to refinance to see if that has any effect on increasing my score and lowering my interest rate? Thanks
Yes.
I love this blog also. I haven’t commented in quite a few months, but I am always lurking. I FINALLY took the plunge tonight and submitted a payment of $15,600 tonight to wipe out both my wife and I’s 7.65% federal loans. We now have all 6.55% federal loans remaining at a combined $120,000. We have paid this down from $200,000+ in the past 4 years, but this was mostly with big chunks at a time, some from inherited money d/t family members passing.
I am now looking to take our remaining debt and re-finance it privately for a lower fixed rate. I have received quotes from Citizen’s Bank for 3.99% 5-yr fixed OR 4.5% 10-yr fixed for only my portion ($79,000). Haven’t looked into my wife’s portion yet ($43,000). I plan to also look into SoFi and others.
Do you think this is a good idea to refinance privately? Both of us? Just me? Silly, but I am just so afraid/nervous of losing the federal safety net, but I know if I can get my rate to under 5% I should save quite a bit of money in the long run.
I should also add that my wife and I already have our IRA contributions set aside ($11,000 combined) and ready to invest. My wife should have access to her new employer’s 401K by January, with a match.
A reminder, I am a Physical Therapist and make ~$100K. She is a PA and makes ~$90K. We likely don’t have much room for increase other than cost of living. I have no employer retirement plans available, only my personal Roth and Traditional IRAs. Wife has Roth, Traditional, and 401K (2017).
Unless you’re going for PSLF, then sure, refinance. I don’t know if one of these guys can beat or match Citizen’s but it’s worth a try for an extra $300 for each of you. https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/student-loan-refinancing/
Thanks, I did use this links page. I ended up finding Citizen’s Bank via the “Credible” website. They have the lowest rate listed for me, and by quite a wide margin (difference of 0.5 – 1.5% lower than the others – SoFi, Common Bond, etc)
Hi. So I am in the middle of getting approved to refinance my grad loans through earnest, (thanks for the recommendation). My debt with accrued interest is at $64k, so I’d like to complete this ASAP (since I’ve accrued $5k in interest since 2012-yes, not the smartest move). Since my tax returns from 2014 and 2015 are not as high as this year, they advised I keep the money in my savings ($50k), to improve my chances of a lower rate. Do you agree?
I was hoping to take $30k and pay off 30k of the 64k of debt I have. One loan is at 7.55%, (approx $17,000) and the rest are at 6.55%…
Do I wait for them to approve my application or is better to just make a $30k payment right now towards my grad loans, and refinance the rest ($34,000), leaving only $20,000 in savings to show?
I also have a higher rent but have decided to move come November 30, (all which has been documented via earnest). My current rent is $2400 but I found a place for $1400 so I can apply the balance towards my loans!
Please let me know your thoughts. I tried to do some math:
$34000 debt
If approved w/earnest 4.5% (for example)- $1530
If kept at 6.55%= $2227.00
(Definitely a lot better at 4.5%, assuming they give me that.)
Please let me know your thoughts:
To recap-
1) $64000 debt- one loan at 7.55% and the rest at 6.55% (approx $43000)
2) deciding to wait until earnest approves my application for refinancing, and need to decide whether I should apply with $50000 in my savings, or pay off $30k in debt today, and apply to refinance $34k while showing online $20000 in the bank
3) 2014 income significantly low- 2015 income 30% lower than income earned 2016
-income for 2016 is estimated around 100-105k whereas 2015 was around 75-80k, and 2014 was under 50k
4) no credit card debt or other debt besides grad loans
5) current rent $2400 a month – will decrees to $1400 come December 1
(Hoping to pay at least $1000 a month in loans starting December 1.)
Thanks!
If I owed $64K in student loan debt at 6.55-7.55% and had $50K in cash, I would send $49K to the lenders tomorrow then work on sorting out the rest later. If no one wants to refinance me, so what. I’d keep throwing money like crazy at that last $15K. Do you see the insanity of having money in savings earning 1% before-tax while paying 7.55% in interest (perhaps not even deductible)at the same time?
As far as how Earnest treats the $50K, I don’t know. I’d ask them I suppose as to whether you’d get a better rate with $64K in debt and $50K in savings or $14K in debt and $0 in savings.
Hi thanks for your reply. And sorrry I keep asking the same thing over & over!
So, I applied at earnest and first republic bank, and I was denied because my income in the last two years wasn’t consistent and lower than what I would be making for 2016 and future years. First republic told me to wait until I file taxes and reapply, as I may have a better chance to be approved (since my salary is higher for 2016). (Also, their minimum to refinance is $60,000, which is approximately the sum of all of my graduate loans.)
I know you recommend to payback loans ASAP, but do you think it’s worth the wait to try to refinance in January, and possibly get approved for a 7-year plan at 2.65%? (Kerry said this is the plan I would most likely be approved for after I file my taxes.) Or is better to still take a chunk of the money I have saved (let’s say 30k for example), and just pay off two big loans today?
(Btw just a reminder- my loans are at a fixed rate until 2030 through FedLoan, (one at 7.55% (about $12.5k with interest I’ve already accrued), and the remaining loans at 6.55% (about $51k with the interest I’ve already accrued). Thanks so much.
Ps. I gave my friend (Ron) Kerry’s email and a link to your blog. He is in contact with her to refinance his medical school loans, and he is going to mention he was referred by WCI. Hope this helps!
I would not hold off repaying loans to wait until the interest rate is lower. Repay as fast as you can as long as it makes sense and refinance as fast as you can as long as it makes sense.
My student loan rate is 2.88%. I rationalized that if my investment return is greater than my student loan interest, it makes sense to pay my loan as slowly as possible and invest any additional savings in higher-yield investments. Thoughts?
I’d certainly max out retirement accounts before paying that off. I don’t know how much I’d invest in taxable before doing it.
So I live in an expensive town in CA with my hubby and two kids (our home town that exploded thanks to Silicon Valley), and we’re renting currently at $2500/month. Median house price is $825,000+, childcare $1200/month, and school for our other son may be free or may be $950/month depending on where he ends up. My hubby is finishing his masters and gets tax-free compensation from the VA about $30k, and I’m working part time (bc kids and long commutes for hubby out of town for school) but thinking of working an extra half-day, which will bump my tax bracket to 25%, so tax my after-rate is 9.5%(1-25%) = 7.125%. My student loans are $200,000k and growing on IBR at an average interest rate of 6.65% or so. Despite the GI Bill, hubby owes $50,000k and growing on deferment. Bc I was never finance savvy, I didn’t save for retirement until this year, and I’m nearly maxing out my 401k for the first time, but we haven’t been able to really save for anything else at all. Question is, should I stop contributing to my retirement and try to pay down some of my student loans now (maybe refinance first) and save for a house? 7.125% vs 6.6% and no home to call our own. I’m paying the car slowly at 2.9% and we have no credit card debt. But hard to know what to prioritize here. I think we’ve sadly realized that child number three won’t be financially possible, though desired. When hubby starts to work, his income will probably cover childcare expenses for our two current sons, but we were thinking of contributing all/most of it to his non-existent retirement (in about 6-12 months). Thoughts on how we should prioritize?
Tough situation. Lots of issues-
1) Negative net worth
2) High rate student loans
3) Low income (one part-timer and one low paid student)
4) Expensive cost of living
Honestly, you guys need to make some money. You have way too much student debt to be part-time unless your spouse has a huge income. It would also help if you could cut expenses. Which means move.
I’m not sure you understand how tax brackets work. Only the amount made in the next bracket is taxed at that rate.
If your goals include another kid and buying a house, I don’t see how the path you are on leads there any time soon.
If you aren’t going for PSLF (and you can’t unless you’re full-time) then I would try to refinance those loans. But even if you don’t refinance them, 6-7% is a great guaranteed return.
But whether you’re paying off loans or putting money toward retirement, they both build wealth and that’s what you need right now. I would submit the issue isn’t whether you’re doing loans or retirement, but the total amount of money going toward building wealth each year that is the problem.
White Coat Investor,
Thanks so much for all your time and efforts.
I would love to have your input/advice about my financial situation:
I am finishing my 3rd year as an attending urologist in private practice. Will make about 400k next year.
I currently am maxing out my retirement account and SEP. I have about 130k in a personal 401(k). I have about 110k in student loans at 2.6% interest.
I am currently renting, but will probably buy a place with a 230k mortgage.
I have about 300k that I have saved over the last couple years and I am debating the best way to utilize the savings.
Would you put that money toward the student loan, more investments or make a large down payment on the mortgage?
Thank you so much!!
$300K? I’d put $110K toward the student loan and the other $190K toward the mortgage. You might be able to earn more investing than those interest rates, but you’re certainly going to do better getting rid of the debt than what you earned on that money in a savings account over the last couple of years.
WCI,
I have been reading your blog for approx. 6 months now and am very happy to have found it and for the work you are doing to educate your readers. I have checked in on this post periodically to read the updated comments, and have noted that your tolerance of low-interest debt seems to have diminished significantly over time. When you initially wrote this article you put investing in taxable accounts at #5, above paying off low-interest 3-5% loans at #6, followed by paying off very low interest loans with post-tax rates <3% at #7.
I have noticed in more recent comments here that you are advocating paying off most debts as quickly as possible, which would implicitly prioritize them above taxable accounts. For example, in the reply to Steven above you advocate $110K to his very low student interest debt, and $190K toward the mortgage, which seems counter to the priority list in the main article. Based on the original article and other posts you have written (e.g. with regards to mortgages), I would have expected that you would recommend 20% down on the mortgage to get a 15-year mortgage at a current low rate of 3.2% or so without PMI, which for him at 400K income is an effective mortgage rate of 2.14%, and invest the rest in taxable given that his debt is all very low-interest (and non-callable). This would be in keeping with the original priority list at least.
Do you think that your view of low-interest debt has changed over the past few years? I wonder how the improvement of your own financial situation over the last 5 years could be informing the apparent change in your attitude toward such debt.
My apologies if someone has asked this question already, I have read many of the comments on this thread but I don't think I have actually read all of them!
You’re on to me. My need to take risk is rapidly dropping. If you have a high need to take risk, then carrying low interest rate debt and investing makes more sense. If you have a low need, it makes less sense. What made sense for me at a net worth of $1M doesn’t necessarily make sense at a net worth of $5M.
But there’s more to it than just my personal situation. The longer I do this and the more I interact with docs in real life situations, the more I pay attention to behavioral issues and the less attention I pay to what works best mathematically. Sure, it makes sense to borrow at 2% and invest at 7%. But it doesn’t make you financially better off to borrow at 2% and go heli-skiing. That’s what I’ve been doing. What have you been doing? If you’re buying any luxuries at all, and you’re carrying debt, well, you’re borrowing to buy luxuries. Money is fungible.
At any rate, there is no right answer here. The list is murky for sure and those who really read carefully will notice the list isn’t even the same in this post and in the book! I think there’s no doubt you should fund your 401(k) before paying off a 2% mortgage, but as the alternative investment becomes less attractive and your interest rate creeps up, at a certain point it no longer makes sense to invest instead of paying down debt.
Hope that helps.
Also, you should be aware that this year I am maxing out all my tax-advantaged accounts and investing some in a taxable account BEFORE throwing anything extra at the mortgage. So I guess I’m still following the list mostly.
I noticed in the podcast that you seemed to change your suggestions for when to begin contributing to a 529 for a child as well.
In the past, you’ve seemed to follow the mantra of, “Don’t pay for your children’s education before you pay for your own.” In the podcast I believe you had contributing to a 529 ahead of paying certain loans off, including certain student loans.
Is this something you’ve recently changed on as well?
I think I phrased it “the 529 up to the maximum state tax benefit.” In my state, that’s $4K per kid. I would do that before paying off a 2% student loan. But I wouldn’t put $14K in.
Thanks for the reply, I’m glad to know that I was not imagining that your advice has migrated more toward aggressive debt repayment over time. I think your concerns regarding real-world behavior vs theoretical accounting are very valid. Personally I am guilty of some borrowing to buy luxuries via spending over debt repayment, but to a degree that I think (I hope) is modest, at least in relation to my income, and I don’t have any regrets about the few meaningful purchases and expenses we have made, i.e. I would make the same decision again. If you and your friends/family had a great time heli-skiing and made some lasting memories together, then it sounds like you made the right choice, and I suspect you would do it again. I guess the point is that you have found a level of debt that you are comfortable with and find manageable, and that you have made that work for you. I have just found it interesting to read through these comments chronologically to see how your view of debt has evolved over time.
I am currently very early in my saving/investing career, 3.5 years out of residency. I max all my retirement accounts (403b, 457b, backdoor Roths for me and my wife) and my student loans are now at approx. 100K, with rates ranging from 2.4%-5%. I don’t have any sense of urgency about that, I guess because I have currently in my taxable account approx. 145K saved over the past couple years, and so could decide to pay it off tomorrow if I was motivated to do so. In some hard to explain way, the ability to pay off a given loan at will has relieved me of some of the urgency to do so, as I am now making a conscious decision to keep that money invested and earning compound interest as opposed to having that debt continue out of necessity alone. I guess it is similar to your mortgage pay-off fund, I could consider this a student-loan payoff fund…I just can’t bear to part with it now and actually pay off the loans! The amount of arbitrage I am managing to accomplish is probably not huge, and this year I think we will hammer down the higher interest loans to a greater degree, if not completely pay them off.
As you have said many times here, there is no one right answer, and I certainly don’t want to split hairs over whether an unmatched 457b should be #6 on the list and a loan with a rate of 3.5% should be #7, honestly as long as you are putting (a lot of) money into one of those things you’re probably going to do OK.
Sounds to me like you’re doing just fine and struggling with the same decisions we all struggle with. 2 years ago, I preferred to invest in taxable rathe than pay off the mortgage. Today, I’m leaning the other way (but still haven’t paid off the last $95K or so.)
Jim, you’re a personal hero of mine after reading your blog recently and seeing how you reply to everyone despite your busy schedule. unfortunately, i came into it a little too late and am trying to play “Catch up” and would love your advice.
annual salary of 450 k. moonlighting of additional 50k
mortgage of 630k (stupid…i know now!) (financed at 15 years with 6k/month payment)
personal student loan debt of 320, now down to 240k, now fixed at 10 years at 2% with FRB. (3700/month payment)
wife student debt of 320 k at 7%
wife salary ~35k (now working part time b/c of recent 2 kids)
started an LLC, for my moonlighting gigs
max out my 401k (~18k)
recently started backdoor roth for both of us.
she has an LLC as well, but we haven’t contributed anything to a separate or solo 401k as of yet bc i wasn’t sure what to do with extra cash.
we were over 600k total student loan debt and i was reeling trying to figure this out. I opted to refi my home and student loans at a lower rate and now we are filing taxes separately so she can undergo IRB payments of her loans given her low income, but i’m getting hit hard with the solo tax burden. I’m not sure if this is the best and looking for advice moving forward. Should I start additional tax savings loans…pay off my student loans…pay off her AND my debt so we can file together…..Convert my LLC to an S corp to create more deductions. To be honest. i’m overwhelmed.
Well, as you’re well aware you’ve made a few minor errors with significant consequences. But you’re doing lots of things right:
1. Making lots of money
2. Refinanced your loans to a low rate (2% for a 10 year is incredible)
3. Maxing out a 401(k)
4. Doing backdoor Roths
5. Keeping her skills up so she can go back to work when able/desired
6. Mortgage less than 2X gross income
7. 15 year fixed mortgage
So take a deep breath. Let’s see if we can focus you a bit on what really matters.
The elephant in the room is her 7% student loans. I’d start there. What is the plan for those? She isn’t working full-time, so she isn’t making qualifying payments for PSLF. Therefore, presumably you all are going to pay those off. Sooner is better than later. They probably won’t refinance them just based on her income. If you want a lower rate, you’ll need to co-sign. Of course, that means if she dies (or leaves you) that you’re on the hook for them whereas otherwise they’d disappear or at least follow her in a divorce. But if the marriage is stable and she is healthy, I’d probably still refinance/cosign them and get busy paying them off.
Refinancing doesn’t pay them off of course. So now you’ve got an income of $535K and student loans of $560K in student loans. Ideally, you’d be living like a resident and get those paid off in 2-3 years. Unfortunately, you’ve already bought the big fancy attending house. So that means you’ll need to sacrifice elsewhere in order to get rid of those quickly. If you can do some retirement investing along the way, that’s great too. Your 401(k), Backdoor Roths, an individual 401(k) for your moonlighting etc.
The LLC/S Corp thing is small potatoes compared to the student loans. Don’t lose the forest for the trees.
I don’t think I’d do the Married Filing Separately thing in your situation. A lower payment doesn’t help when the goal is to pay the things off fast. You’re not making qualifying PSLF payments. And IBR forgiveness takes 25 years and is taxable anyway.
Head up, shoulders back, you’ve got this.
Thank you so much for the encouragement. Our plan for filing separately was to make the IBR payments for her which sum total to less then 2-3k/year x 25 years at which point they’d be forgiven. When we file together and we applied for pslf or ibr, they factor in my salary to her payments which make both of our student Lon payments nearly 8k/month, if not more, especially now that I refinanced mine at a short term
Her max salary will be no more then 50-75 k over her work career in which case, the total amount paid back using ibr (even over 25 years even with me taking tax hit) to govt will be drastically less then the total forgiven at the end of the time or even less then the amount she has now (320k). Factor in her interest that accumulates and our thought process was that in the long run, we would make out in her forgiveness at the end of the 25 years but still get stuck losing 200-300k in my tax penalties over the years; Unless I can decrease my tax bracket and burden, then that 25k hit annually for filing separately would go down drastically.
thoughts?
You’re factoring in the fact that IBR forgiveness is taxable, right?
Per my accountant, they were not sure. I cant understand how people who only make 30-40k/year are expected to pay taxes on several hundreds of thousands of dollars of forgiven debt and also at what rate? Factoring in interest, her forgiven debt at the end of the time frame will be close to, if not more then 600-700k at the end of the 25 year period.
You’re actually in a similar situation to me, so I’m curious what you’ve decided to do.
My income is between 500-750 per year. My loans are 266K, just refinanced to 5 year fixed at 3.07%.
My wife has 344K and climbing, with 0 income right now. Loans are federal IBR, between 3.5-6.5%
I’m torn whether to pay hers down aggressively, refinance, remain on IBR, or some other option we haven’t thought of. As the law stands right now, she will be taxed on the forgiven amount, which will probably be around a mil in 25 years.
With a 1X debt to income ratio why would your wife still have loans in 25 years? Why wouldn’t you pay them off in less than 5?
That may be the best option, but it will be brutal. I’m an EP, and the reason I’m able to make that level of income is because I hustle and work a ton of hours, and travel to high paying gigs, etc. I figure if I continue this way I can pay both our loans in 5 years, but it may burn me out… and these are years I can’t get back with my kids, etc. So before committing myself to that level of pain I want to explore every option.
I have an LLC, and the original plan was to pay my wife a small salary through the LLC, but keep it low enough that she has no required payment on IBR, then pay just the interest along the way for 25 years until the balance is forgiven. But emotionally I’ve realized I can’t tolerate the idea of carrying debt that long. I want it gone. I’ve considered whether bankruptcy may be an option for her (legally we are not married, so although we have kids and live as a married couple. we file taxes separately, etc.) but I know bankruptcy is a long shot with government loans – and also not particularly fulfilling. I’m also concerned that if we refinance and pay aggressively, we may miss out on some benefit of leaving them on the federal side (e.g. there are currently bills in congress to remove the tax requirement on forgiven IBR debt). But what is the likelihood government will come to the rescue?
So bottom line for me is I’ve reached a point where I’m determined to destroy all our debt, and I’m close to pulling the trigger on just paying hers aggressively for 5 years, but I want to make sure I’ve explored every option available before I commit to this task.
Truly appreciate your input.
You generally don’t get student loans forgiven in bankruptcy.
First ensure career longevity, then figure out the best way to get rid of the loans. Burnout doesn’t help. First things first.
Let me ask a quick follow up.
Her loans are with Navient, not consolidated. Most are 6.8%, and a few on 3.28%.
Knowing the little bits and pieces I’ve shared, would you recommend a) Remain with Navient, consolidate and pay aggressively, b) Remain with Navient, NOT consolidate and pay the higher interest loans down, followed by the lower interest, or c) bite the bullet, and refi with ELFI or private company?
If planning to go for forgiveness programs, don’t refinance, you can consolidate if you want. Otherwise, refinance.
Hi All,
Currently in 1st year of GI Fellowship:
My loans ~200,000, still paying IBR, but once moonlighting kicks up will start throwing more money at them, then refinance in year or two, and pay down heavy as I will likely go into private practice. Also saving for a wedding so it’s tough to be as aggressive as I would like.
Fiance is a Child Psychologist and Has ~200,000 in loans from grad school and PhD program. She just started IBR payments this month and qualifies for PSLF. She will likely remain in a school system for her career and thus PSLF may be a good option. In two years (2018 tax season) when we file taxes together her monthly payment will kick up from 100/month to ~1500/month. She may take a year off from work at some point when we have children.
1) If we still make payments during her time off does that count to the 120 payments needed for PSLF? My guess is it doesn’t, if shes on maternity leave do those payments count?
2) Does it even make sense for her to continue with PSLF, after 10 years I’m guessing she will have ~75,000 forgiven in loans which I know we will then get taxed on, and could anyone recommend a good loan calculator for sorting this out.
I feel like I replied to this already. Maybe on the forum?
1. No. Full time work only. If your employer certifies maternity leave as full time then I guess so.
2. You don’t get taxed on PSLF.
I thought you get taxed on amount forgiven in PSLF?
No. IBR, PAYE, REPAYE forgiveness yes. PSLF forgiveness no. I suppose Congress could change that, but that’s the way it’s written now.
Hi WCI,
I have been stalking your website for a month or so and just bought your book after listening to an interview you gave to senior residents. Truly, thanks for your help.
I think I have a handle on what your answer will be. Sept 2016 was the start of my first year out as an attending. My salary is about 177K. I have a lot of neg net worth though: my student loan debt with undergrad and med school is about 477k ( ouch, i know, i winced when I saw the number jump when the interest capitalized, my rate is 7.5%). I’ve been making PSLF payments since 2014 (I unfortunately consolidated so earlier payments in residency don’t count) and my current employer counts. I have no other debt, I drive a 2005 4Runner that I paid off in residency and have held off on getting a mortgage. Straight out of residency, because of double boards and end of year expenses, I actually had 10k in credit card debt which was gone in my first 2 months out.
The loan amount…is overwhelming. I don’t have any credit card debt. At this point, I feel like i have to bank on a forgiveness program. I am currently on the REPAYE plan and will plan to only work in PSLF friendly places. My plan is to max my 403K plan (doing), start a traditional IRA and max that out as well at $5500. I have 16K in emergency savings, have decided i can truly live like a resident and downsize to a rent of $1000 or less. I was thinking about opening a separate savings account and pounding funds into that (moonlighting, etc) in the event PSLF gets capped or heaven forbid go away. It seems unwise to refinance or put more money into loans at this amount, if there’s a chance some amount of this debt can get forgiven. Or I suppose I could marry rich. But that’s plan B for now-I hope. Sound reasonable?
Overwhelmed,
Anna
You can’t deduct that traditional IRA so you might as well backdoor it into a Roth IRA.
Otherwise, seems like a good plan given your unfortunately overwhelming debt to income ratio. Hope you get grandfathered into PSLF if it changes.
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/what-to-do-if-you-have-monster-debt/
Just curious about retirement vs paying debt approach for my situation. I’m 3 years in practice and made $315 last year. My husband is a stay at home dad and had $50 k of cosigned high interest private loans and we paid it off last year. We paid $10 k cash to have our baby last year(we have terrible insurance so hit our out of pocket max). We have one car loan left at 1.75% interest, no cc debt and we have a modest $230k 15 yr mortgage at 3.25% fixed. I refinanced my student loans of $232k from a fixed 6.8% to 5% (15 yr repayment) about 1 yr ago. I realized that if I could pay an additional 45K off the principal, I could again refi them with no fees or penalty to a lower rate (4.49%) 10 yr and my minimum payment is the same. So I did this with my last two bonuses and now my balance is 185k at 4.49%. If I get another 30 K off the payment, I can go to a 7 or possibly 5 yr plan and qualify for even lower rates 3.3-3.75% and still swing the monthly payment. These rates are fixed and I would consider variable rates at that point as low as 2.6% once I have a lower balance. This decision to stay with a fixed rate would depend on if I get selected for a loan repayment scholarship of $100k I’ve applied for which would be dispersed over 4 yrs. This extra 40K towards the principal has allowed me to lower the duration of my loan repayment and also the rate whereas I would not have had the opportunity had I put that $ in retirement. I feel like I should keep doing this until I get the lowest interest rate available and then make the minimums and put the extra savings in retirement. This defers the extra $ that would have gone into retirement about 18 mos to 2 yrs by my calculation worst case scenario. I’m private practice and am putting about $37.5 k (via profit sharing) into retirement and I max out my yearly HSA. To max out retirement, I will need another $18k per yr. Is this frequent refinancing of student loans to get lower rates a plan that makes sense financially? Or should I stop at 4.49% fixed, be happy with the rate and just go to saving towards retirement? Ideally hoping to do both, but we’re expecting our income to go down a bit this year so I’m not sure if I’ll be able to in reality.
Thanks! I’m new to this… just read your book and am for the first time excited about my financial future.
Sounds like you’re doing great to me. Personally, with an income of $315K and a student loan of now only $185K, I’d probably to to a 5 year variable and continue throwing tons of money at it. I mean, $50K a year toward savings and $50K a year toward the loans gets rid of them in 4 more years and still leaves at least $100K to live on.
Just reviewed my Navient loan statement for the 1st time in way too long and am, quite literally, feeling queasy.
Current balance is $130K and interest rate is 5.375%. Payments are $780 per month and I have paid this the last 5 years. Have only retired $6K in Principal but $38K has gone to Interest; hence the queasy feeling. If I pay my student loan debt according to plan, I’ll pay $235K. That’s the bad.
The good is I am making $210K per year and job feels stable. Have maxed 401K for last 8 years and have balance of $320K. Have $140K in my brokerage account and just bought a home with mortgage of $2K (all in) per month. Only other debt is $5K on car at 2%. If I were young, I’d probably liquidity my equity positions and retire the loan debt… but I’m 53 (started late in the game) and deferred loan payments as long as I could hoping (*sigh*) that some miracle would save me from having to pay them. But at 53, I’m nervous about liquidating that much.
A few questions: (1) are negotiated settlements an option, (2) is refinancing a good option while I determine best long-term solution, (3) is paying in chunks, say, 5 large payments over 5 years a good strategy, (4) should I bite the bullet and liquidate my brokerage account, (5) is there a clear/obvious strategy to everyone that I’m simply not seeing?
That’s really common to feel terrible about debt. Use that nausea to motivate you to take care of those loans. Better to deal with it head on than be in denial about it.
It seems odd to me to have $140K in a brokerage account and a $130K 5.375% loan though. I’d probably get rid of both of them and pay the car off while you’re at it. While you’re not a spring chicken, you’re also not going to be retiring in the next 5 years so you don’t need to be on a short term plan. Pay off your debts, quit acquiring new ones, try to save at least 20% of gross per year for retirement and I think you’ll be fine by traditional retirement age.
1. Not for you. Who’s going to let you pay less when you have more than your loan balance sitting in a brokerage account?
2. Yes. But I’d pay them off instead. If you decide not to, then refinance to a 5 year variable and make big payments. If rates rise dramatically, then liquidate the taxable account to pay them off. Not a lot of risk there for you.
3. You really want to be in debt for 5 more years? Really? When you don’t have to be? Just pay them off.
4. Yes. Pay your debt off this week. Seriously. It’s not always this clear cut, but it is in your case. I have no idea why you think it would be better to do that if you were younger. It seems smarter to do it if you’re older- less ability to take risk.
Really appreciate the quick response!
I’ve always thought me a reasonably savvy investor (realize that’s not particularly true)… so defaulted to trying to build my investment portfolio vs. retire debt. As to the brokerage account question, I have been the beneficiary of market conditions with the so called FANG stocks. Have invested about $90K and rest has been equity appreciation.
As for the student loan quandary, I always did believe some forgiveness program would kick in that would help retire some of the debt. I was utterly irresponsible and deferred every possible time I could. And when payments were supposed to begin, I consolidated separate loans and received more deferment time. I also elected to pay interest-only payments for a period of time. In all, think I avoided addressing my loans for close to 15 years. Hence massive amounts of interest accumulated. I got on a dedicated payment plan about 5 years ago. Decent income only began about 8 years ago and I wanted to try and build some savings first.
As per the suggestions, the idea of taking my savings (brokerage account and about $10K in savings/checking) down to roughly nothing scares me. My inclination is to refi (5 yr variable is about 55% my current rate)… and then pay half the loan. That way, I still have something in savings… and then work to pay off the reminder in a few big chunks at a much lower interest rate.
As an aside, when you suggest saving 20% of gross per year… does that include 401K contributions? Or is the 20% suggestion above and beyond 401K?
Kindest regards!
Lee
Includes 401(k) contributions and match. But if you want to dive into the details, you should run the numbers yourself and see what you’ll need to meet your goals. The 20% number is just a rule of thumb with all the problems it entails.
I think your idea to “split the difference” when you’re not sure which of two good things to do is a good idea. It just won’t surprise me if you pay off the other half of the loan a year from now.
I must have missed something somewhere though if it will take your entire brokerage account AND all your cash to pay off the loan. Maybe I didn’t account for the capital gains taxes.
Thank you again for your responses! Feel I’m in a much better position to make an informed decision.
Thanks for the great post. What do you recommend for someone with a student loan interest rate at 4.85% for a 370K loan? It is very close to the 5% recommendation for payoff. I would continue to utilize tax advantage accounts such as maxing out 401K but should I also contribute to backdoor Roth for my spouse and I ($11K) or use that money to pay off the loan asap? Much appreciated.
No right answer unfortunately. Why not split the difference if you can’t cut lifestyle enough to do both?
I was wondering what your advice would be regarding paying back student loans that were locked in at a very low interest rate? I was lucky to get a rate of 1.875% and have 152,000 left to pay back. I have been an attending for 4 years and have been paying them back at a faster rate than the minimum payment. We are maxing out our retirement accounts and have some extra money to invest. My husband and FA both feel that we should invest that money in other accounts where we can get a return at a higher rate than the rate of the loans. I know you are all about paying loans back but most of the advice seems directed toward people with a much higher rate than I have. I know there is the emotional reward of paying off loans but what would be financial benefit of paying them off early vs investing into other accounts with a higher rate of return?
If you could borrow money at 1.875% to invest, how much would you borrow? If that amount is $152K, then go ahead and do what you’re doing. If you wouldn’t borrow that much, I would submit that you ought to prioritize paying that money back a little more than you are.
There’s no doubt that mathematically it makes sense to borrow money at <2% and invest it in stuff with a higher expected return than 2%. But behaviorally, people tend not to invest that money. They tend to spend it. So while I wouldn't pay off those loans before maxing out all my available retirement accounts, I wouldn't drag it around for decades either. I think med school should be paid for within 5 years of residency graduation. So if you're coming out of residency, I'd live like a resident, maxing out retirement accounts and putting everything else toward the loans. Then after they were gone I could buy a wakeboat guilt-free, cut back to half-time, start a business on the side, and enjoy the good life. Oh wait, that's what I did.
Seriously though, moderation in all things. It's okay to carry a little low interest debt as long as you're investing what would be going toward them, but it's also okay to pay them off even if they're at a low rate. If you don't have much saved yet, maybe carry the debt, bust your butt to earn more, and invest all you can. If you already have a $2M nest egg, what's the point of carrying around $150K in debt?
That’s a great interest rate. May I know which company gave you that loan? Looking to refinance myself. Thanks.
I can’t remember who I got it with in the first place. The loans have since been sold and are managed through Student Assistance Foundation. I graduated and refinanced in 2006 when the rates were good. Not sure such a good rate exists any longer.
Just paid of my loans at 1.8%. Best feeling ever. I doubt I will miss them enough to take out another loan. I also would not take a loan out at 1.8% to invest, so I feel comfortable I did the right thing.