[Update August 2020: Originally published in November 2019, Whitney and I teamed up for this post about this new (to us) car. It is now August 2020, and it is still running great and just passed emissions again and continues to teach Whitney important lessons. Most recently she learned that a car will not run forever on empty and that if you do not turn the lights off when you get out, it will not start when you come back to it. She also got to learn how to jumpstart a car! This Spring she rattle-canned it and now looks like an Easter Egg. She is currently regretting that decision so it may be a new color soon.]
We decided to do this post interview style. Enjoy!
Q. I understand you were recently involved in the purchase of a “new” car for you to learn to drive and then drive to high school. What were the criteria your dad gave you for the car?
Whitney:
Yes, recently (as in 4 months ago) we purchased a “new to me” car that I’ve been learning to drive. However, my dad imagined a set of nearly impossible criteria. It had to run well, (which isn’t easy to find for that cheap of a price), it wouldn't need any immediate repairs (which was REALLY difficult to find), and it had to be a manual transmission or “stick-shift” which really helped the ever-narrowing options. But the real kicker: the car had to be under $1,000. I began searching around the beginning of May and found some interesting listings on a local Craigslist-like website (KSL.com). One (my personal favorite) read, “Bought this car for my son to learn to drive stick, he crashed it into the mailbox, I gave up, so good luck!” Unfortunately, we didn’t get that one or that would’ve been a great story, but not to say my car doesn’t look like it’s been crashed into a mailbox.
Jim:
As regular readers are well aware, we could easily have gone out and bought Whitney a brand-new Tesla to drive to high school. But what kind of message would buying a new car have sent to her? Imagine how hard your life would be if you started out flying first class and then found yourself riding in coach later? So we decided not even to put Whitney in coach. She's basically riding on the wing, the cargo hold, or the lavatory. We hope she'll appreciate being able to ride in coach later. The reasoning behind the criteria was:
- Manual transmission: Katie and I both drive Toyota Sequoias with automatic transmissions, but we feel strongly that our children need to learn to drive a manual transmission under our guidance as teenagers. So the options were to buy ourselves another car to drive or to simply buy a third one.
- Running: Pretty much any car that actually runs is worth $1,000, but the point of this criteria was simply that I didn't want a “mechanic's special.”
- No immediate repairs: Similar to above, I didn't want to have to do any initial work on the car, so anything, where the brake lights or windshield wipers weren't working, was out. That didn't mean the power mirrors or door handles had to work, but it had to both run and have its safety equipment working.
- < $1,000: Three reasons for this criteria. First, it is meant to be a disposable car. So any large repair or even minor collision totals the car. Second, I wanted to teach both Whitney and my readers that short-term transportation can be very cheap. I have often said that reliable transportation costs $5,000. A $1,000 car isn't reliable, but it is transportation. Third, I wanted Whitney to have to learn to shop for a car. It's easy to find a $5,000 car. A $1,000 car requires more work. She had to make the calls and decisions.
Q. What did you end up with?
Sweet ride eh?
Whitney:
After a couple of weeks of searching, I ended up with a 1997 Nissan Altima that’s the same (very attractive) color as our 12-year-old couch, with a manual transmission. It was originally listed at $900 but we were able to get it down to $800 due to my expert bargaining skills. Actually, it’s because we had to meet the guy at a burger place because he left his house while we were test driving the car and he gave us a discount for our time. It was kind of a crazy story, especially given that he left the signed title in the car. Now my car may not look that beautiful on the outside, but it’s got a nice personality. It’s a little banged up but still looks pretty decent and runs well, nothing a sub-par paint job can’t fix, right?
Jim:
We don't have a 12-year-old couch. We've never had one that new. In fact, Katie and I have never actually purchased a couch in our lives. We're looking forward to getting a couple next Spring, though.
Q. I heard the car cost even less than $800. Why was that?
Whitney:
The actual cost of the car came to $796.68 due to the $3.32 in change left in the ashtray. And yes, I did only count it up for this article. But among the change found there were also a few gas receipts and a movie ticket for Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, which coincidentally came out the year I was born.
Jim:
I told Whitney that by paying only $800, she would have $200 left over for repairs.
Q. Now every sub-$1,000 car has a few quirks. What quirks does your car have?
Whitney:
Every car has some quirks that you get used to after a while, but this one has some especially interesting quirks. For starters, the windshield wipers, radio, and mirror adjusting buttons won’t work if you turn the ignition too far, which we figured out a couple weeks after getting the car. The other (slightly more annoying) quirk is that, when unlocked from the driver’s door with one of the keys, the alarm will occasionally go off until you unlock it from the passenger’s side (my neighbors especially enjoyed that quirk after we tried to unlock it at 10 pm).
Jim:
But wait, there's more! She apparently hasn't noticed all of the quirks yet. It leaks oil for starters. There are two brand new tires, one moderately worn tire, and one nearly bald tire. The driver's door only opens from the inside, too. That one is getting a little old, so I think it is going to provide Whitney an opportunity to learn to work on the car very soon.
Q. How does it run?
Whitney:
Honestly? It runs great. Although I put about three months of starts on it in about three weeks, we haven’t had any problems with it actually driving. Driving an old car is perfect to learn on, because if I hit an overhanging tree branch, who cares? Just another scratch to add to the other 900, right?
Jim:
Three weeks? You mean three days? In between the time Whitney wrote this and publication, it broke for the first time, about 4 months after purchasing. That quirky ignition has finally gone out. So now Whitney definitely gets to learn how to work on a car since it will no longer start.
[Update just prior to publication: We fixed the door handle. It was a broken $2 clip. We also swapped out the ignition ourselves. It cost $53 and some time–good family activity. We even got the $5 FOB we bought to work after that, so hopefully the alarm issue is also solved. Still below $1,000 too, but I think it may need a battery soon.]
Q. How long do you think the car will last? How will you know when it dies? What will you do then?
Whitney:
I’m hoping it lasts quite a while, (I’m already slightly attached) and I wouldn’t be surprised if it lasts quite a while due to the new transmission and clutch that was installed not long before we bought it. We’re planning on painting it purple, which is my sister’s favorite color, so she’s hoping it lasts long enough for her to drive, but I’m not sure it’ll last THAT long.
Jim:
It's a disposable car. I'm not going to throw it away for an ignition we can do ourselves with a Youtube video, but I'm certainly not going to put $1,000 into it. If those two want to paint the car, they better hurry. If it lasts a year, I'll feel like I got my money's worth out of it. I'll be ecstatic if Maren (# 2) gets to learn to drive in it, too. When it dies, we will buy another one. How fun is it to get a new car every 6-12 months?
Q. I understand that you’re not the only one driving it around.
Whitney:
Half the time my car isn't even home anymore! My mom uses it to drive carpool, and my dad just zips around on his way to work. They say it’s because it gets such good gas mileage, but I’m convinced it’s because they just think it’s fun to drive and they don’t care if it gets a little ding or two. Even my littlest sister likes driving in it because she can get in by herself because it isn’t as tall.
Jim:
It's actually been really convenient to have a third car around when one goes into the shop or someone comes to visit. Katie and I both drive it occasionally, especially when we're running Whitney around. I really don't care if my 2005 Sequoia with just as many miles as this Altima gets a ding either.
Q. What lessons did you learn from the buying process?
Whitney:
After inquiring about multiple cars, and going to see three different ones, I’ve learned the important questions to ask. For example, “any known mechanical issues?” may not cover the fact that the A/C is totally busted for somebody, as we learned from the second car we looked at. Just like, “Has marijuana (which is illegal in Utah) been smoked in it before?” Which we learned from the first car we looked at.
Q. How are your driving lessons going?
Whitney:
I mean, the fact that my parents feel the need to have a giant bumper sticker on my car that reads, “STUDENT DRIVER” should tell you something, but in my personal opinion I think I’m pretty good. I only stalled eight times in a row that one time… Joking aside, I drive everywhere now so I’ve gotten the hang of it, and my parents are right that a stick is fun to drive, but it just started snowing here, so we’ll see how I feel about that in a week or two.
Jim:
She's terrible. The whole neighborhood is having fun watching, though. I'm a little biased, but I had to drive two Alaskan Winters with my parents before I was allowed to get my license. She only has 6 more months and a single Winter before she turns 16. I'm hoping for significant improvement.
Q. A lot of doctors think any car with more than 50,000 miles is not reliable and so borrow $30-40,000 in order to buy a car. What would you say to them?
Whitney:
That’s absolutely ridiculous. I wouldn’t necessarily say that I would drive my car through rural Mexico. It’s not quite that reliable, but it gets me from point A to point B just as well as a brand new Tesla. However, I don’t think that I would ever borrow money for a car. Just listen to the Dave Ramsey Show — every other person on the show has car payments and thousands of dollars of debt. As much as a car seems essential, it is a luxury. I could be riding the public transportation bus to school every day, which would take four times as long, but it’s definitely cheaper. If you can’t afford it, take the time to save, or find another option. It may not be easy or ideal, but few things in life are.
Jim:
Amazing how much smarter a 15-year-old can be about cars than a surprising number of residents and even attendings. While a $1,000 car is not reliable, a $5,000 car is and you can easily expect to get 5 good years out of a $10,000 car. I see little reason to ever borrow more than $5-10K for a car and no reason for an attending physician to ever be in a position where they need to borrow for one.
If your first car wasn't worthy of a name, you missed out on an essential part of your teenage years
Q. What other lessons do you expect you will learn from this car?
Whitney:
I expect to probably learn some humility. My car will definitely stick out like a sore thumb in the parking lot of my high-income school. However, that may be because of the paint job. Either way, who wants to park an expensive car in a high school parking lot anyways? Are you asking for a nice big dent? I’ve also been learning what to do if your car spins out, as well as basic mechanical procedures like changing a tire or checking the oil.
Jim:
I've got her convinced that she's at the high-income school. Apparently she doesn't even know about the private one down the street. As far as the lessons to learn, I mostly want her to realize that transportation can be very cheap, learn to work on a car a bit, learn to drive a stick, and mostly learn that she isn't what she drives. This week she got to learn to identify all the parts under the hood, check the oil, and top it off.
Q. Your parents are quite wealthy. They could probably buy you a nice pick-up truck, a new Volvo, or even a Tesla to drive. But they didn’t. Why do you think that is? Are they just cheap or are they trying to teach you something?
Whitney:
They are definitely trying to teach me something. My soccer coach has always said, “It doesn’t matter if you win if you didn’t learn anything.” and I think that applies perfectly to this situation. Not only did I learn how to buy a car but the next time I would ever be driving a Tesla would be after I’m well into my career so it wouldn’t make sense for me to be getting accustomed to one now when I won’t be driving another nice car for some time. Besides, who wants to peak in high school? By living a somewhat more humble life, my parents are showing me that I don’t need a successful blog and a high-income job to have a nice life. They are creating an example of an attainable lifestyle for me.
Jim:
Looks like she learned the lesson. Maybe if this one dies quickly she'll get to upgrade to a $5K car.
Q. Which car has more miles, yours or your dad’s?
Whitney:
They actually have about the same amount, around 242,000 miles which just means they’ve been on their fair share of adventures. That’s even with the extra 7 years my car has on my dad’s. In fact, my dad’s car is only worth about 3 times as much as mine according to Kelley Blue Book.
Jim:
Wow. My car really is only worth $3K now. Strangely, I consider it very reliable and took it all the way to Cabo San Lucas this year and routinely tow a boat 6 hours each way to Lake Powell with it.
Q. Do you look forward to having something nicer to drive when you get older?
Whitney:
Yes and no. I love being able to drive a car that’s unique and you can tell whose it is when you pull up. I also enjoy the fact that I don’t have to stress about telling my parents if I scratched it or if someone hit it in the parking lot. It’s not a big deal. However, I would love a nice, new car, but that just gives me a goal to work towards in the future. It would feel so much better to buy my dream car with my hard-earned money than to just be handed the key.
Jim:
Yes. When this one dies, I'll get something nicer. I mean, Katie will and I'll get her Sequoia.
What are your thoughts about driving an old car? Would you buy your child a beater? Also, every beater needs a good name, any ideas? Let me know in the comments below.
Ah, the long awaited post about the $800 car. Bill Bernstein said on one of your podcasts that buying a car is no more than an IQ test. Looks like you two scored at the genius level. Driving a car like this is prestigious, not degrading. It shows you value the concepts of frugality, modesty, practicality, and team work. Whitney, you might study the concept of hedonistic adaptation. A new car will be exciting for 3-4 months, but then it won’t be exciting anymore. But the experience of learning about the transmission and time with your father is life long and invaluable. Update the readers about part two, when you have to replace it.
If we’re lucky, that post will be written by her younger sister.
Thank you for the update. It will come as no surprise but few of us ‘know’ how to drive. What passes for driving instruction in the USA is substandard. We learn to keep the car with the lane markings and that, can be a challenge for some. When I was in Finland, you had to wait until 18 years old. The test was challenging as you had to navigate a number of defensive maneuvers. Our terrain and weather changes rapidly. You may start driving on a nice sunny day and end up driving back in foggy, wet, poor visibility day.
Driving can be fun. But it is dangerous. Add the snow factor and your fellow drivers and things get interesting fun. Whitney, I highly recommend you take a teen defensive driving school. It is money well spent. The skills you will learn will make you into a better driver early on. Skills you will use the rest of your driving days. I would also recommend doing some go karting. It is a fun and inexpensive way to learn how a car moves and ‘telegraphs’ what the front and back are doing. Here’s a link to very good driving school: https://bondurant.com/teen-defensive-driving/
Also, congrats on getting a manual. It will make driving just about any car fun and engaging experience. Plus, when you go overseas, you
will have no problems as most cars are manuals.
Drive tastefully,
Dario
Thanks! I’m learning to be a defensive driver. A quote from my dad, “Drive like everyone else on the road is out to get you” which helps when you have to be aware of others and their driving as well.
A physician I know just yesterday told me that they were going to buy their child a brand new Prius for getting their license. Because older brother got one a few years ago. Maybe I should send them this post 😋
My oldest kid is 5. I am hoping that my current car becomes his first car a decade from now.
In highschool we always joked that our old cars could be the parents of the “rich kids” new cars.
Enjoy the lessons and I have filed a few away for future use.
Great post!
I thought about giving my car that I bought new 5 years ago to my daughter when she turned 16, but that’s only in a little over 3 years now. My car still only has 51k miles on it and looks essentially brand new, inside and out. There’s no way she’s getting my car in 3 years!
I, too, like the idea of a $1-5,000 car for her first one. I drove a 10 year old Chevy Astro van to high school when I started driving to school my junior year. I then upgraded to the 9 year old Acura Legend when I was a senior in high school. Even then that made it much easier when the (soon to be convicted murderer) dope in my high school backed into my car in the parking lot and damaged the engine frame. He’s gone on to even worse things, somehow:
https://www.standard.net/police-fire/courts/man-convicted-in-killing-of-motel-clerk-faces-human-trafficking/article_0d1a7a33-c7b0-5387-b9e1-b72d3e2a309e.html
An 8 year old car? That’s so unsafe. Don’t you love your daughter? If you loved her you’d borrow $50K to get her a brand new one.
The safety issue is a real concern. Teens get in accidents at a high rate and cars are getting incrementally safer at a pretty consistent rate https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811825. Mortality charts spike around age 16 due to accidents. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Mortality_by_age.png
Newer technology like backup cameras and automatic braking can also help your teen avoid a situation where they injure someone else too.
This doesn’t mean your teen needs a $50k car. A new Hyundai Accent is $15k. You could also get a pretty new used car, maybe a former rental car, for $5k-$10k.
I would love to put my teen in a $800 beater for all of the reasons that you list, but if I had the resources for something better I don’t think it’s right when they are still a minor and my responsibility to make them incur that level of incremental risk that they may die or suffer life altering injuries in a crash.
You probably don’t climb mountains with your children either for the same reason.
No, I don’t. However, I would be a lot more willing to do that than put my kid in an old beater.
I looked at the other comments and I think you have a blind spot with respect to how you analyze safety. Each decision and it’s trade-offs needs to be viewed in it’s own merits.
With mountain climbing, the trade-off is life experience, spending time as a family, exercise, etc. vs. safety. You choose to climb the mountain, great. However, you probably do use some safety gear like helmets and rope.
I also bet that if the question was about replacing a probably okay but maybe damaged piece of safety gear, you would err on the side of replacing it. In that decision, the tradeoff is the cost of new gear vs safety, so the calculus is different.
I can completely understand not living a life where safety is paramount. However, it’s still one of many important values, even if it gets lesser weight than having life experiences or teaching moral values to your kids. I just think you are taking things to an extreme and when you have plenty of assets, as many people here do, when the trade-off is primarily safety vs. a modest incremental cost going for safety can make a lot of sense.
It’s like you have a point to prove instead of looking at it dispassionately. That’s why when people bring up safety you are responding with extreme examples like Hummers with bullet proof glass, when the real range of options fall along a very big spectrum.
I also don’t think a kid will be spoiled in something like a $10k 2015 Hyundai Accent. I bet if you shopped around you could even find something like that in manual.
I do have a point to prove, both to my daughter and my readers. That basic transportation can be very inexpensive. Does that require a sacrifice in safety? Absolutely. Is that sacrifice significant? Not in my opinion. I agree there are a range of options and it is best for a given person to find their own place on that range. Your place is clearly more to the side of safety than mine.
At any rate, we had a snowstorm this week and I deliberately took her out to a big parking lot to teach skid recovery. She had a great time drifting the car around. Then we drove around the streets of the neighborhood and into the business district. Obviously deliberately driving more than needed on slick roads with a student driver is not the safest thing to do, but I had some lessons to teach.
I agree I could find a 2015 Hyundai accent, but then my daughter would think basic transportation costs $10K, and it doesn’t.
Did you actually check the data and do your diligence on safety vs. cost before making a decision on safety or are you just going by gut feel? Would you make a financial decision on gut feel?
Many posters here are questioning how you came out on this. If you didn’t do actual diligence, isn’t that a sign that it might be worth considering?
There are objectively bad ideas out there, like not vaccinating your kids. I agree that getting an $800 beater isn’t one of those. However, if you’re going to advocate for this approach I think you need to deal with the key objection, safety, in a data driven way instead of just brushing it off.
In any case, thanks for the discussion and interesting blog.
You know I work in an ED, right? And take care of car accident victims every shift, right? So did I go out and read consumer reports looking at their safety ratings or read through manufacturer or NHTSA data before choosing a model? No. If that’s “gut feel” to you, then I guess I do it on gut feel.
Many of the posters objecting to this are so out of touch to how most of America, much less the world, purchases their transportation that it is laughable. Who do you think is buying the 5-10 year old cars you’re selling to buy something safer? Did you think they just disappear from society? No. They’re still driven and still wrecked every single day.
I’m not sure why you think I’m advocating for “this approach.” When people ask me what they should drive, I tell them to buy a car they can afford and drive it for a long time. If they cannot afford a car, I tell them to spend $5K (certainly no more than $10K) since you can obtain reliable transportation for that price. Nowhere have I ever told my readers “you need to buy/drive an $800 car.” I’m simply sharing what I am doing. I am also pointing out that basic transportation can be very cheap. Meanwhile posters are implying “you don’t care about your daughter because you let her drive something less than the vey safest car on the market…you’re a terrible dad.”
I’m not sure what you want me to do to “deal with the key objection.” I agree with you that a 22 year old car is less safe than a 5 year old car. I’m also telling you that I don’t care. I see it as a trivial risk in my life and that of my children. I will never be able to reduce that risk to zero no matter what I buy. I don’t know how much better I can explain it than that but there you go, your own personal explanation just like all of the ones above it in this thread.
Well said both of you. Safety vs. cost is always a balance. I admire Jim’s commitment to frugality, which is something I wish I could do, but it takes time. As my career progressed and paychecks got bigger and bigger, it was hard to get out in front of expenses when work kept me so busy (and still does). In my personal opinion, many of the electronic safety features of the last several years have dubious value. The only time that emergency braking ever worked for me is when it activated incorrectly, and I can say the same thing for radar parking sensors. Adaptive cruise control always makes me feel like I’m in “grandma mode.” Rearview cameras only seem useful in large vehicles (like Suburbans). However, I will say that antilock braking systems and side-door reinforcement bars have been useful for me. Those two features have been standard in most cars since 2006 and 1997, respectively.
Honestly Jim I think you lucked out with Whitney. From just this interview you could tell she is incredibly intelligent and thoughtful and down to earth. I think most doctors kids almost expect to be handed the keys to a new BMW or C class Mercedes these days and you are right that if you start them out like that it will likely lead to more pain down the road if there career won’t allow them to maintain that style of vehicle.
Plus as new drivers the first car is unlikely to go unscathed during high school so why put a luxury car in harms way?
I am going to make my daughter read this post (she just turned 14). Fortunately she is already on board with getting a used inexpensive car I believe but we were talking around 5k before. This sets the bar even higher (lower?).
Congrats on raising a daughter that gets it.
One of your best posts in recent memory! Congrats to Whitney for being such a great, intelligent kid!
When I turned 16 my physician father bought me a brand new Honda Civic. I was still driving it as a resident physician. When my daughter turned 16 I bought her a brand new Honda Civic. She’s still driving it in grad school. You can buy cheap and often or buy quality and drive it forever.
Maybe that’ll be the second car.
Also don’t fail to consider the safety ramifications of your teenager driving a 22 year old car. They are significantly less survivable in an accident than even the cheapest new car. I didn’t see safety even listed a as a factor in the decision making process. Does it have multiple and dual stage air bags? ABS? Stability control? Lane keep assist? Automatic emergency braking? Collapsible steering column? Sophisticated crumple zones? Seatbelt pretensioners? Even the cheapest new car on the lot has most or all of these.
Ahhhh….I was waiting for this one. I’ve got a response all primed for you.
If driving is the most dangerous thing my daughter does, I have failed her as a father and an adventurer. Here’s the four year old last month:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Katie-and-Afton-e1573226231993.jpg
Actually, if I really cared about her safety I wouldn’t let her go to her preferred school and would make her go to the one that’s a little closer and ride the big yellow limo to get there. I assume that’s what you do with your kids, right? 🙂
Safety was #1 for me when we bought our child’s first car. I would not have been able to live with myself if she had gotten into a wreck and was seriously hurt because of a lack of safety features that were readily available. I, too, ended up buying a new Honda Civic and passed it down to all 4 children. I will go cheap on a lot of things but, given the statistics regarding teen drivers, automobile safety features are a deal-breaker.
I assume you have her in a Hummer with bulletproof glass and make her wear a helmet and a C-collar while driving then? 🙂 I mean a Civic? Imagine my Sequoia running into that thing at 75 mph. Unconscionable.
Seriously though, carry this out to its logical extreme. You’re now saying you care more about child # 1 than child # 4 because you bought child # 1 the latest and greatest in safety and child # 4 is now driving a 10 year old car with 10 year old safety features. Was that really your intent? Probably not. You simply judged “oh it was safe enough a few years ago for kid # 1, so I’m sure it’s fine for kid # 4.” I’m saying the same thing. “It was fine for me as a brand new car in 1997, it’s fine now even if there is some slightly more safe thing out there.”
I’m all for safety while on the road, but let’s not kid ourselves. 99% of it is just keeping them off a motorcycle. The difference between a motorcycle and any car is 3 orders of magnitude larger than the difference between any one car and another.
Love all the kids equally. Sometimes unequally, depending on who’s ticking me off at the moment. When I was looking at cars, I couldn’t find anything used with side airbags. Granted, it was centuries ago but side airbags were as important to me as front airbags so I grudgingly bit the bullet and bought the new car that had both of these features, stripped down version. Putting them in a Hummer would have endangered the rest of society. It’s all about balance.
I agree. It’s about balance. And reasonable people can draw the line between price and safety in different places.
And while we’re on the topic, the big yellow limo doesn’t have seatbelts, so I’m not sure that meets your safety requirements either. 🙂
Basic physics -The ‘big yellow limo’ weights ~42,000lbs empty (or 10-12x any motor vehicle) so it is by far the safest vehicle on the road for transporting little ones to and from an educational facility. Even without airbags and seat belts.
My first car was a Nissan 200SX (manual) – it would have had the same engine as your car. Great vehicle. I only got rid of it after 14 years. I still miss it.
Personally – I would have bought you a used Nissan leaf with about 80 miles of range. Zero maintenance.
Enjoy your new ride!
P.S. – What’s the going rate for an interview with WCI? Whatever it is, ask for a raise!
She’s being paid just as much as I feel I can justify to the IRS I assure you. No better tax break than paying your underage kids to work in your business. That money is never taxed. Tax deduction to the business, no payroll taxes as only owner is a parent, no income taxes as income too low, and no taxes on earnings as they all go in a Roth IRA.
If only I could get her to write more…
As far as electric car maintenance, we have a neighbor with a Tesla who has been waiting a year for a new battery. Not sure just buying electric gets you out of maintenance and who knows what they will be like after 22 years.
Via email:
Great article.
I remember my first car. A used mint green Pontiac grand am with I bought with money I saved up for working as a stock boy at the local grocery store.
Funny how that car meant more to me than any other car since.
Agree completely with Stevie Wonder. Great post. Literally had me laughing out loud while at the same time presenting some great financial and parenting concepts.
My only question is why you were so adamant about the manual transmission? Other than pure entertainment for you and your neighbors watching the car stall, there is no good reason to learn that skill. In Whitney’s life all car’s will eventually be electric and even now, every car made (with the exception of F1 and Nascar) comes in automatic.
I learned on a manual transmission 25 years ago, but that is old technology at this point. I mean you could have gotten her a Horse and Buggy to start with and made her learn computer programming from a DOS system from 1980, but that seems silly to me. Manual transmissions will no longer exist except in “specialty cars” or “antiques” over the next 20-30 years IMO.
That are many good reasons to get kids a manual as you will see in my post. With all the phone, music, and other distractions you simply have to focus more when driving a manual and that’s important for any driver, especially a new one. You can’t simply zone out like you can with an automatic. And the US is unique in that most other countries are majority manual, I think we are simply lazy drivers. And lastly driving a manual is fun.
You’ve never rented a car in Europe have you?
Besides, why not teach a new skill? If nothing else, it will help her to understand how the car works and what an automatic transmission is doing for you.
If you want to have some real fun rent a manual Renault in Dublin with right hand drive, shifter on left and driving in the left lanes around roundabouts that go the wrong way all through the countryside. A bit harrowing, but a blast!
Sounds like my first time driving in England. I hit two curbs on the way out of the airport.
Ok…I will agree with the foreign driving reasoning. Although I would argue that even foreign cars will all be electric in the next 30 years. But, I never drive in foreign countries and have no desires to ever drive in foreign countries.
I don’t agree with the other logic regarding focus. Teach your kid how to drive and the distractions will not be an issue no matter the transmission type. That’s like saying you need your kid to use a old dial phone because they will be too distracted on their apps from there new smart phone to dial 911 in case of a fire.
As for “fun”, that is where the specialty cars that I mention come in. They will always exist, but will only be for those that seek them out.
Electric cars have motors and no transmission. Torque and acceleration all better than any transmissions….Evolve.
My kids don’t get a smart phone either. Does that surprise you?
At any rate, 30 years is a long time. 30 years ago I was just getting my driving permit.
As someone who considers himself an ‘enthusiast’, I deeply regret that my parents did not teach me to drive a manual. At 38, I now find myself in the same position as Whitney and looking for a cheap beater to learn on.
Although in my case ‘cheap beater’ = ‘$2000 Miata’, because as we all know, Miata Is Always The Answer.
Great post. I just bought my 16 year old a manual just like I bought my almost 30 year old a manual. Hard to get distracted & mess with phone & radio when you have to shift, and it’s a life skill. One of my sons got a lot of jobs valet parking at the local country club in college because he could drive a manual! I took my drivers test in a manual back in the day.
Here’s another reason. My daughter was driving my wife’s Subaru which is automatic and allowed her friend to drive it (which we had told her never to do). The friend rear ended a vehicle and totaled my wife’s car. By law we are on the hook for that and the friend escapes scot free while we are left with no car, a payment way less than what the car was worth and escalated premiums. That never would have happened had she been driving the manual as none of her friends have that capability.
Exactly. It’s the ideal millenial anti-theft device.
There have been instances of failed carjackings because of manual transmissions. Awkward!
Both frugality and driving beaters seem to run in families. I still remember fondly the VW my parents had that had rusted out floor boards – we kids thought it was the coolest because you could lift the floor mats and see the pavement whizzing by.
And yes to cars so quirky they deserve names! My first car (that I bought used, on my own) was Trigger. And my kids just inherited Frannie the Vannie, a Sienna with 200k miles. A car with actual functioning doors, radio etc would be boring.
We had a car without a floor too. It was a Chevette I drove in high school, at least for a while until it died. One day my dad changed lanes through a little pile of snow and ended up with a lap full of snow. Does he go out and get a new car? Nope. He went home, cut a board to fit, placed it over the hole and we must have driven that thing another 6-12 months like that.
You know how hard it is to get him to spend his RMD each year?
Ha!
That’s the other great things about old cars: they all have stories.
I have herded cows in Frannie the Vannie. Nobody herds cows in a Tesla.
“…due to the $3.32 in change left in the ashtray.” So awesome.
I lasted two weeks with a driver side door that couldn’t be opened from the inside, only the outside. By the end of the first day, I realized rolling down the window and reaching out was easier than scooting across to the passenger side. Two weeks later, I figured out how to tear the door apart and replace a similar $2 widget pulled out of junk yard full of scrap vehicles.
Beater cars are a great lesson on time + problem solving + ingenuity vs. spending money.
What a coincidence! That is exactly what was wrong with my car. New lesson learned, and a functional door. It’s a win-win.
Love this post. My first car was a 17 year old toyota stick shift with >220k miles that I bought for $700-probably close to $800 in today’s dollars. I drove it for almost 4 years before selling it (it still ran well) for $500 to upgrade to a 10 year old Nissan which was $1200 and felt luxurious at the time. I was rear ended (no injuries) in the Nissan which was totaled and received >3k for it from the other driver’s insurance, kept the car, spent <1k on repairs and continued driving it for another 2 years. I took myself on vacation with the money "earned" in the accident.
Reminds me of a funny online advertisement I once saw a friend share for a similar car… “This car will get you from point A to point B. But don’t try to go to point C.” 🙂
We are 5 years out of residency with loans paid off and my doctor husband is still driving the 1997 Civic he bought in undergrad. It’s a manual transmission with 250k miles and even though we could replace it with something MUCH nicer, we both love that car so much. Driving stick is fun and my husband loves parking it in the physician lot next to his partners’ Audis and shiny new F-350s. I hope it lasts long enough for our 10-yr-old to learn to drive it.
When it comes to safety i think there’s somewhere in between buying the latest and greatest and a car with no brakes and the wheels falling off.
I think at a minimum antilock breaks and airbags. Maybe traction control… For those that remember with drum brakes back in the day you had to pump the breaks so they didn’t lock up in the snow. I remember driving in the snow in the awkward in between times where some cars had abs and some didn’t and you had to remember.
How difficult is it to find a manual trans these days. My 2nd car (also a beater) had it. It’s a good skill to have although these days it’s rare to find a manual transmission.
$800? But, is this a wise decision to have your kid drive this relatively unsafe car. WCI, you could can do better.
See the above comments. You know, Whitney has already been in a frontal impact collision in an Altima built in the mid 1990s. She was 3 days old at the time. No one was complaining it was unsafe then. But apparently it has magically become unsafe just because something safer exists. Obviously I can do better. I can make her ride the bus. I can buy a hummer. I can wrap her in bubble wrap.
Jim, I love the website but respectfully agree with the tongue in cheek here. My mother died when I was very young in a car accident that she likely would have survived had it been for modern safety features. Those weren’t available then, but they are now, and some of the benefits are very real.
No, don’t buy the teenager a Tesla, but buying something a little safer and more reliable (esp. with a young woman) seems prudent in my humble, yet biased, opinion. I know I won’t change your mind, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in because everyone seems to have this idea that safety doesn’t matter when I promise you if you get unlucky with your loved ones, you would give every penny you ever made to get them back.
So you love your daughters more than your sons? What are you saying exactly?
As far as keeping my kids safe, there are an awful lot of things I could do that would have a bigger bang for the buck than improving their safety on the road. For example, I could stop taking them up the Grand Teton. But I’m guessing there are a lot of things I do with Whitney that you would not approve of due to a lack of safety. For example, her first climbing trip back in residency:
It seems safety indeed is in the eye of the beholder. As WCI has mentioned multiple times, he doesn’t believe that the safety premium is worth the price premium when buying a newer car. Whenever someone brings up their concern, he counters with examples of other dangerous things his kids do. This is a good example of confusing absolute risk with relative risk. Driving a car is done so frequently that the absolute risk is much higher than that of engaging in dangerous hobbies. Combine that with the risk of teenage driving and it’s even more concerning. There is a reason why insurance companies charge higher premiums for teenage drivers. Parents do get to make car decisions for their kids, and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. But just as nobody has all the correct answers, I would advise people to learn personal finance from WCI (and I have learnt a lot from him), while ignoring the humble bragging of who can get their kids the unsafest cars.
I don’t recall ever arguing that the safety premium is not worth the price premium specifically with regards to this purchase, although I do think that is a frequent excuse my readers use to justify borrowing to buy cars they cannot afford. As indicated in a comment above, the purpose of the purchase was not to buy the safest car out there. If I wanted to do that, I would have done so. I assure you I can afford to do so. The purpose of this car is to teach my daughter that she isn’t what she drives, that basic transportation can be very cheap, and how to drive a stick shift.
As long as we’re talking about “absolute risk”, the likelihood of a teenager dying in a car accident is not particularly high. About 2400 out of 42 million teenagers a year die in car accidents. What percentage of those deaths would have been prevented by driving a 2017 Altima instead of a 1997 one? Who knows? Maybe 5%? Certainly not the majority. So we’re talking a relative 5% reduction in death, but only a 0.00029% absolute risk reduction. I’m pretty comfortable running those odds. But if you want to spend an extra $25K to avoid that risk, it’s your money and your life.
Another bizarre argument at the end of your comment–that a late 90s Altima is the “unsafest” car. Nope. There are far less safe vehicles out there. Let’s start with motorcycles. Or true economy cars from 1980s. You really think a 97 Altima is less safe than those? How about a jeep or a convertible?
If you can’t see there is a continuum of safety, I’m not sure it’s worth continuing this conversation. But the fact is that this Altima is not at the far left side of the continuum, and whatever you’re driving is almost surely not on the very far right. It’s gray the whole way along. And while you would likely pick a spot on the value/safety continuum that is to the right of where I would pick, there is no black/white “correct” answer to this issue.
Re: comment about daughters, I would be much more concerned about a young woman stranded in the middle of nowhere due to an unreliable car than a young man. It is the sad reality we live in – people prey on women. Obviously I would prefer to not have either my son or daughter to break down in the middle of nowhere.
The difference with your hobbies and your car driving situation is the car driving is a necessity that CAN have increased security. Your hobbies, depending on your risk tolerance, is completely optional. You’re right, I wouldn’t take my daughter rock climbing at that age, but that’s your decision. As with the car. I never said I’m trying to change your mind. I am just saying I think you are being short-sighted and trying to prove a point that frankly doesn’t stack up.
I’m also not sure about the argument here. I enjoy scuba diving, which is more dangerous than laying on a couch watching a movie. Does that mean I should take a crappy airplane to the diving spot? Get on a boat that is unsafe to the dive spot, because hey, it is less risky than diving? No…. why would you increase risk in anything in life? Well, because for some things, we take some risks with doing some things we enjoy, like diving for me, but my wife wouldn’t be caught anywhere near a scuba tank. For her, the risk/reward isn’t worth it. Except with driving, there is no reward! It’s transportation. If you have to get to work, to school, to wherever, why not be safe about it?
Why not live in a bad neighborhood? The risk is so low, and you could save so much money, and your kids would learn how to live like lower income people…. same thought process as the car.
Why not buy her a car without airbags? Why does it need seatbelts? Safety? Well, some of the modern safety tech is reducing injuries at the rates that airbags and seatbelts have. So why not put her in a car without airbags?
Finally, your mortality argument (in the other comment) only involves deaths… doesn’t consider injuries. Even with the mortality risk, you’re right, that is extremely low. Until it happens… then all that to save a few grand and teach your daughter a lesson that apparently couldn’t be taught with a 5 or 10 thousand dollar car? I don’t buy it.
Why would you let your daughter drive an $800 car to the middle of nowhere? 🙂
And I did let my kids live in a lower income neighborhood for the first 4 years out of residency. That probably wasn’t super safe either. But it was the new fancy neighborhood that had the double murder and the guy who shot up the hospital.
That last comment about getting your wife’s old car once she gets a new one resonates very strongly with me, haha. That’s the plan in a few months here once we finish paying off student loans. Can’t wait to upgrade to driving my wife’s ’09 Kia Spectra.
I rode the city bus in college and have had a ’97 Accord through dental school and so far my first 2.5 years post-dental school. My parents bought it for me from my older brother as a college graduation gift for $1500. I must be incredibly lucky because I’ve put a total of $300 in non-maintenance repairs into it over the past 6.5 years I’ve owned it. (A hose had to be replaced one time). Obviously anything that is plastic is falling apart, but the AC is kicking strong and the radio still works. It also does the most important thing, gets me from A to B reliably and consistently, even if it sounds like I’m driving a go-cart in the process.
People are really good at convincing themselves into purchasing things they want. Cars are especially easy to talk yourself into spending way more than you “need”, just go to the WCI FB posts and watch the mental gymnastics people perform to convince themselves it’s the right financial move to lease cars or buy “relaible and safe” $30k+ cars.
I just want a reliable, relatively safe car that’ll take my kids from A to B. Whether it’s a beater, 5yr used or new, I don’t think it makes a difference and has little bearing on who they are or what kind of person they’ll be. It’s just a car. The beater will likely need to be replaced sooner, while the lightly used or new car could last thru college into early adulthood.
This was really a great post Whitney and Jim. The relationship modelling is actually what strikes me most. Parentally, it is guiding growth and development the right way rather than the easy way (spending money is easy when you have lots of it). From Whitney, an appreciation of this and the obvious attitude to cherish the great stories and experiences that come from this time spent (more valuable than money). Symbiotically, the good-natured ribbing was priceless.
We are also trying to take this approach with our kids. We have noticed that people we know who lived with parental affluence, with the spending of money instead of time, really have a hard time if they do not achieve that on their own. Moving from 1st class to coach as you say. Vehicles haven’t been an issue for us. However, we are actually going to downsize from our huge country estate to a normal-sized house close to a good public school in the next year. Our youngest doesn’t remember the simple houses we lived in before our castle. You describe our rationale well in this post. The “new” house is badly dated and my kids are pretty stoked to help me renovate it.
Thanks for sharing this.
-LD
The most challenging aspect of being parents is the balancing act of teaching your children to have an endless mindset of possibilities.
Coming from bottom 10th percentile family, I had personally witnessed SCARCITY have the clout of belittling the infinite potential of a person – SCARCITY mind will have a limit life.
If I had to do it all over again with my daughter, I would not tell her not to dream of a fancy car as long as she is willing to put in her OWN DIME from part-time work.
The mistake I made was emotional – she dreamed I bought just because my parents could not, but I could!
As doctors, you should have an intimate understanding that we are much more biological than we are capable of admitting to ourselves. The selfish gene must satisfy itself first!
I would only doll out $800 for the car, but I would emotionally support her dream of having the 100 K fancy car.
Moreover, I put more time toward ETHICAL education in preparation for a future day – when she found less and less pleasure in spending on herself; she will serve others and find the joy will be resulted from her own freewill.
I see this a lot on Bogleheads and WCI where people will brag about parking their beater next to the fancy cars at the workplace parking lot. Sure its fun to talk about frugality but there can be a dark side with that. Make sure you never think of yourself better than someone because of a material decision like that. You’ll end up just as prideful (and off-putting) as the folks who flaunt extravagant luxuries and look down upon others. Pride goes both ways and “stealth wealth” people can struggle with judgmental attitudes, too. Hope this doesn’t upset anyone… just a humble warning and observation from experience…
That’s right. Not only does pride go both ways (envy looking up and derision looking down the economic ladder), but people can be just as prideful about a larger brokerage account from not buying the car as a fancier car from getting it.
When I turned 16, my dad bought me an ‘86 low-miles stick shift Civic. 7 years later my younger brother got it. He learned to drive in it, and it lasted another 7ish years. I got my grandmother’s ’87 (low miles) Accord that lasted for another 10 years until I sold it for…$1000. My current car got me through post-bacc, med school, residency, and I’m just nearing 100k miles. Oh, and it’s a stick. In another 10 years, I’ll get a new-to-me car, but I’ll pay cash. Oh, and my younger brother now literally drives the same car, color, model (and manual) as I do. How funny is that?
That is one way of doing it. I do not “buy” the safety arguements. But factually, the automotive industry has made some significant improvements. Both in safety and reliability.
Conceptually, I differ. The idea that a $1000 is a “throw away purchase” until you are “ready for the responsibility” kind of rubs me the wrong way. No “personal car until you are ready” and a value purchase is the messager I prefer.
*”When I turned 16 my physician father bought me a brand new Honda Civic. I was still driving it as a resident physician. When my daughter turned 16 I bought her a brand new Honda Civic. She’s still driving it in grad school. You can buy cheap and often or buy quality and drive it forever.” It was not at 16, the need vs want. Use one of the family cars. At 17 “her car” was a “new” Civic one year old to get the price discount.
Two years in high school, 4 years college, 2 years medical school and THEN the younger sibling took over the car due to a “need”. Then an upgrade to an Accord (new) for 2 years medical school, 6 years residency, 2 years fellowship and THEN give it back for Dad to drive.
Now Dad has a perfectly good 2007 Accord with less than 85k miles. Most of the miles were “trips home”. Lightly driven and that is our second car. No need to buy new or used. Drive them until they drop.
Different approach, but I don’t like $1000 that is intended to be a “learner”. Take care of your car and make it last is my preferred message.
Of course, you can afford a $1000 throw away. Keep the $1000 is my suggested method.
The “throw away” concept simply means that any wreck or major repair totals the car. It takes all pressure off if you break it because other cars depreciate by $200-1000 a month. At that rate, it’s basically already fully depreciated.
She isn’t even ready for the responsibility of driving an $800 car. That’s why she doesn’t have a license yet. Hopefully in 6 months she will be ready. So I think you’re reading something in there that simply isn’t there. The messaging she is getting is “You aren’t what you drive. I want you to have the experience of driving something really, really cheap so you will understand that basic transportation can be really inexpensive. Plus, you can put whatever stickers you want on the car and paint it with spray paint however you like because when you’re done with it, so is the rest of the planet. It’s going to the dump.”
And yes, it’s technically a family car, but for ease of naming, we have “mom’s car”, “dad’s car” and “Whitney’s car.” I couldn’t keep the $1,000 because I wanted her to learn to drive a stick shift and I didn’t have one.
You’re quibbling over differences in dollars, not the basic argument. Your Dad did NOT hand you the keys to a brand new BMW (as several of my high school and college buddies showed up with one day). Your Dad did NOT hand you the keys to the family Land Rover and say “Take all your friends on a two week road trip. Good luck!” The car you received is one of the least expensive and most reliable in the history of the automobile.
My minor gripe with your story isn’t the car at all. It’s the fact that you didn’t pay for it. I bought all my vehicles. Unlike the majority of my BMW gifted friends, you do seem to appreciate it though. Another difficult lesson to teach.
Whitney,
You are a wonderful young lady and congratulations on the 16th. Glad you appreciated the car and character lessons your wonderful parents were/are intending.
With the stick shift, if you are stopped at a light going up hill and a car behind you gets right on your bumper, better to throw on the parking brake and politely ask them to go around! Surprise Dad and keep it “decent” and it will probably make it through high school. Good luck and stay safe.