I feel very passionately about helping doctors improve their finances. The worse the state of their finances, the more motivated I am to help them. Unfortunately, I seem to be most talented at helping those in the best financial shape and the least talented at helping those in poor financial shape. But I'm still trying. This post is an email exchange where I attempt to instill the X Factor into a physician. Details obscured to protect the innocent.
Q. I Make $320K, I'm In Debt, Don't Understand Investing, and Unable to Save for Retirement
I'm embarrassed to admit that I have an MD degree but my greatest weakness is finance. I'm struggling actually to understand some of the concepts. I have a financial advisor and am likely losing money with him despite him being very helpful so far. Combined, my partner and I make $320K and I feel like we live in a modest home but we have so much debt I can't seem to get to a place of investing so I can retire at a decent age and spend money on experiences rather than our cars, bills, loans, daycare, and shopping. I'm interested in learning but feel like I need more help than the average person! What are my next steps?
A.
Keep Using an Advisor
If the advisor is providing good advice at a fair price, it's probably a good idea to keep using him/her at least for now and maybe forever. But you're paying him/her a lot of money to answer questions like the ones you're asking me. How come you're not asking the advisor these questions? That's what you pay him/her for.
Live Like a Resident
The bottom line when you have a lot of debt and you're not making progress toward your financial goals is that you have to make more or spend less. So start doing things that do that. It doesn't matter how you invest if you're only investing $5K a year. You're not going to have a very nice retirement like that. My general recommendation is 20% of your gross income toward retirement, above and beyond whatever it takes to pay off all your debt except your mortgage within 2-5 years of residency graduation. That generally requires you to live a lifestyle that a resident could afford for 2-5 years in order to take the rest of your income and build wealth with it.
Get Financially Educated
You might consider taking the WCI Online Course, “Fire Your Financial Advisor,” together with your partner. It is our “premium product” and really helps you not only learn how to interact with your financial advisor but also draw up a written financial plan. For those who need more help than the book/blog, but don't want to pay financial advisor fees, I think this is the best option. It comes with a 7-day money back guarantee, so if you don't like it, just email back. You could also sign-up for the free monthly newsletter, which includes a free 12 step email course called WCI Financial Bootcamp.
Q. I Want to Fix the Problem But I'm Not Willing to Change Much
Thanks for the advice. I'm beyond 5 years out and in my mid-30s so I've missed the ball and can no longer afford to live like a resident. I am looking for someone to give me advice for someone who is more like 5+ years out of residency and has an established mortgage, ongoing debts, and a family. I feel like a lot of advice is geared towards early career doctors and I'm in a position that I'm not willing to change my lifestyle all that much.
I don't think we are frivolous. We have a modest home and modest cars. We don't buy fancy things or have expensive hobbies. Our family doesn't go without but at the end of the day I'm barely able to contribute 10% to my retirement and had to stop altogether the past two years when we welcomed another member to the family due to cost of daycare.
I'll talk to my financial advisor but I feel like I need individualized advice for my particular situation. It's not ideal. I make $250k, my partner makes $70K, we have $15K in credit card debt, still owe >$50k with our cars, and $140k on loans. We have $150k in equity on our home and I have about $135k in retirement savings.
So here we are…and here I am wondering how I fix this problem.
A. Only Dramatic Changes Will Make a Difference
You can't expect dramatic changes in your financial life without making dramatic changes. Making little changes around the edges isn't going to change the big picture.
Nobody thinks they're frivolous, including families making twice what you are but having the same issues. I have medical students over to the house every year and tell them “if you can't live on $200K you don't have an earning problem, you have a spending problem.” They all laugh because it is so hilarious to them that someone can make $200K and have financial problems. But guess what? Half of them later do. Meanwhile, you're making $320K and not happy about the progress you're making toward your financial goals. I became a millionaire 7 years out of residency on an average household income of $180K those 7 years (and was well under that the first four.) Ask yourself how that happened and you'll quickly figure it out. We spent very little, saved early and often, didn't pay unnecessary interest, and made sure our money worked as hard as we do. Anybody can do that at any stage of their career. Sure, it's easiest right out of residency before you grow into that attending income, but it's never impossible.
The big picture is that you need to dedicate a big chunk of your income to building wealth if you want to build wealth. Everything else is just details. So that's the place to start. Even if it is just dedicating 1% more of your income each year toward building wealth.
Good News
Here's the good news:
- You already have a positive net worth in your mid-30s.
- Your debt to income level is very manageable.
- You have a great household income.
- You know you need to make some changes. You have insight into the fact that there's a problem.
Bad News
Here's the bad news (and I'm going to be super blunt in an effort to help you):
- You think credit cards are for credit. They're not. Debt is an emergency.
- You buy cars on credit. That's not an ideal way to build wealth. Here are 15 reasons to pay cash for your cars.
- You are keeping your loans in the basement downstairs like a pet instead of obliterating them rapidly after residency before getting used to that attending income.
- You have a financial advisor but you don't feel like you're getting individualized advice. That's the whole point of a financial advisor. If you don't like the one you have, here is a list of ones I recommend.
- You're in such a tenuous financial situation that a childbirth somehow ate up $30K a year. Some families live off of $30K a year.
Trying To Help
So I'm sitting here thinking, “What can some guy on the internet say in an email that is going to change your financial life, motivate you to take control, and give you the hope you deserve as a member of the most honorable profession?” So here's my best shot:
# 1 You Need to Get On a Written Budget
Every dollar you earn needs a name. There is no way you're not wasting a ton of money right now. It's going somewhere and neither you nor I know where. The only way to find out is to write down where every dollar went last month. Then you look at that list/spreadsheet/budget and ask yourself, “Does my spending reflect what I value most?” And then you start cutting back on the stuff you don't value (like driving a fancy car or eating out or vacations or whatever) and move that money toward stuff you do (getting out of debt, saving for retirement, vacations, cars, daycare, whatever). It really is that simple. Not easy. But simple. It's very hard to cut back on lifestyle stuff. But you telling me “I want to fix this problem but I'm not willing to change my lifestyle all that much” is like an obese patient telling his doctor that “I want to lose weight but I don't want to eat less or exercise more.” Well, there's no gastric bypass for your finances. If you want to lose the financial bloat, you've got to cut the calories. Step one is to find out where the calories are coming from.
# 2 You've Got to Really Want This
This isn't easy. If it isn't really important to you, you're not going to be able to do it. You've got to get sick and tired of being sick and tired. I might suggest listening to the Dave Ramsey podcast on your commute. It isn't geared to the high earner like my podcast, but he might be the best person in the world at getting people motivated to get out of debt.
# 3 Consider Making Drastic Changes
Drastic changes include:
- Taking a better paying job
- Moving to a lower cost of living area or a tax-free state
- Downsizing to a cheaper house
- Selling the expensive cars and buying $5-10K cars with cash
- Cutting up the credit cards
Chances are you will need to do one or more of those steps to fix this problem. Maybe not. Maybe getting on a real budget will be enough, but I think you'll need a little kicker to that.
# 4 Start Keeping Score
In personal finance, your score is your net worth, everything you own minus everything you owe. Right now it is $285K-$210K = $75K. What do you want it to be by year end? What will it take to get you there? What do you want it to be in 5 years? How about when you turn 50, or 60? Set some goals, then work backward to see what it would take to reach them.
What do you think? How did I do? What should I have said? How can one diplomatically point out someone's spending is out of control? How can you transplant the X Factor? Comment below!
Love the back and forth, would love to see an update in 3-6 months to see how it’s going. Agree, you need a budget.
I recently wrote a blog about this issue of perceiving you are living modestly, when in fact you don’t. You can find it below :
https://drcorysfawcett.com/are-your-perceptions-killing-your-finances/
If you have $50,000 in automobile loans, you are not living modestly. Everyone seems to think they live modestly if they can find someone else who spends more than they do.
I don’t know how many times I’ve heard doctors ask me to help them change their financial situation without them having to make any changes in what they spend. Yet they are very intelligent people.
Dr. Cory S. Fawcett
Prescription for Financial Success
I really liked your salad analogy. That was hilarious.
The advice you gave is spot on.
You can’t use the excuse that I’ve already done lifestyle inflation since I am 5 years out of residency and can’t go back. If you can’t go back then you have essentially guaranteed you will be working until full retirement age or longer. If that’s okay with you than by all means don’t go back.
But if you want to make financial headway which it sounds like you do, you have to alter the current financial situation because you are not making ground on your net worth to become financially independent anytime soon.
Geoarbitrage is another option if you can move to a lower cost of living area the impact on your lifestyle may be lessened as your expenses decrease substantially
I cannot recommend YNAB – You Need a Budget- highly enough. (WCI, I’m surprised you don’t have an affiliate link on your site; you definitely should). I had used other budgeting software for years like Mint, but most budgeting programs budget for the future. YNAB allows you to sync your accounts, or manually import them – if you aren’t comfortable with scraping technology. It only works with the money that you have now; not what you have in the future. You can try it for free for a month to see if you like it, which is definitely an added benefit.
I saved over $60k in less than 12 months (I started using it in September 2017), paid off almost $70k of debt and have created a very healthy habit. To be fair, we were able to make lifestyle changes and made more income as well, but I wanted to avoid that lifestyle creep and make sure we were getting ourselves out of debt as quickly as possible.
With YNAB, I can see exactly what I have spent on any category that I choose to create. I can make them as detailed or broad as I like. Every morning I wake up, sync my accounts and see where we are. They have an app for the phone that lets me open it when I’m at the store. I can see that I already spent $200 this month on clothing, and we are close to hitting our grocery budget, so maybe I will wait till next month to get more money for a cute outfit, or I can decide to spend less on dining out this month.
It’s a very sophisticated envelope system, but the most important feature is that I now know where every dollar is going. I no longer look at my credit card bill, see all of the little things, and wonder how I spend $3k on small stuff every month. I can tell you exactly how much I have already spent on general items/Amazon/Walmart, dining out, dog expenses, kids activities, etc. It has really helped to be aware of financial behaviorism. I feel so completely in control of our spending and our finances, and that is very empowering.
I do not work for the company, nor do I have any incentives whatsoever. I’m not even providing a referral link to save us both money if we join (but I can if anyone is interested). I am just a true believer, and it has made a huge impact on my financial habits and behavioral awareness. I cannot recommend trying it highly enough.
I should probably look into the affiliate program. They’re a local company and I met the founder the same evening I met MMM about 5 years ago.
I second this!
I honestly can’t believe how you manage to resist reaching through the email screen and punching people in the face sometimes.
Is there a plug-in or an app that does that?
I was honestly thinking the same thing. As I was reading it, I kept stopping to say to my wife things like “I can’t believe he’s so polite in his responses! I’d knock this person off their rocker”
There is denial here. And it’s not the river in Egypt. $50,000 in car loans is insane and not modest. $15,000 in credit card debt on $320k? Complete waste of money. Pay off the cc debt immediately and cut them up. They likely have a high interest rate. Downsize the cars. Look at the spending, and increase the loan repayment. Where is the financial advisor in all this? He needs to help this couple for what he’s charging. I’d also look at the house to maybe downsize & free up that equity to pay back the loans. You can always buy a house later when you can afford it. Ramp up the 401k to at least get max match and fund IRAs every year. But they have to make some changes if they want a change in their finances.
Many times a “financial advisor” is really an investment salesman. I have not seen any that really give you advice on your lifestyle.
Excellent advice for an all-too-common scenario. I do think there is an X-factor. We can keep trying to help people, but we can’t expect to change everyone. I get sad when I hear from people who feel trapped in their own life and can see no way out. The way out may be clear to everyone around them, but to them it is hopeless.
Definitely a good news / bad news situation. The good news is they make a ton of money, and money can fix the problem. The bad news is they need to hit the reset button on their lifestyle and really buckle down to make it happen.
When you say you drive modest cars and that you owe more than $50,000 on those modest cars, you and I have different ideas of what a modest car is. And it’s probably like that with most things. It’s not too late to live like a resident, at least in some ways. I’ll bet there’s a lot of fat that could be trimmed from that budget. Like WCI says, a physician is never more than about 10 years away from achieving financial independence.
Best of luck!
-PoF
I usually attack this by asking how important financial independence and the ability to do whatever you want whenever you want is to the person. When you describe the life and autonomy you get when you reach your financial goals, that is usually a pretty large motivator.
None of the financial stuff works if someone doesn’t know where their money is going. Budgeting is a huge aspect of this. We use Mint. We used to be much more diligent and now tend to track our spending from time to time and not every month like we did at the start.
We have some car loans and increased our net worth by 250k in one year while earning 375-400k. More than half our money went to building wealth
(including paying off 128k in loans in 12 months) despite the car loans.
The point is that you can inflate your lifestyle some when you finish, but you cannot inflate all of it.
TPP
Sadly, I suspect the die is cast. 5 years of lifestyle creep, one or both spouses not willing to severely cut back spending, and that post-training MD-type sense of entitlement. Call me pessimistic (realistic?), but does anyone here really think this family makes any substantive changes and gets their financial house in order?
It depends on whether, as Jim pointed out, they are truly “sick and tired of being sick and tired.” Based on the tenor of the message, I don’t think that they’re there yet. The question then becomes how bad things will have to get before they get to that point, and how much damage will be done by that point in time.
I commend this person for coming forward and asking for advice. I hope that everyone considers that this is THE EXACT person that this site should help. This is a very easy scenario to be in without appropriate financial coaching or a simple lack of interest in finace stuff because you are more focused on doctor stuff. I’m 2yrs out of fellowship and the WCI community has been helpful in keeping me conscious of lifestyle creep. I have already made the big doctor house error but this is a marathon. I’m glad that this person is starting the race and I’m rooting for a successful completion.
“Unfortunately, I seem to be most talented at helping those in the best financial shape and the least talented at helping those in poor financial shape.”
I know an n of 1 does not equal proof, but without finding WCI 5 years ago (last year or residency) we would be lost. I’m a primary care pediatrician and DW had just picked up a pricey masters degree and we had nearly 400k in school loans (original debt to combined income nearly 2:1) We still have a ways to go but we have avoided making a lot more mistakes along the way, and the education all started here. I bet there are a lot of people like me in here who just don’t post and comment as much.
Couldn’t agree more. I was a financial disaster. Jim, your material helped my family go from negative millionaire to positive millionaire status in five years. Remember my guest post, Confessions of a Profligate Borrower? Thanks again!
A $2M swing in 5 years is pretty impressive!
Technique that helps me prevent/reverse lifestyle creep is the “disaster budget.” I die / am disabled and now we live off my wife’s salary only – how do we get there? (Yes I have life/disability insurance too, it’s a thought experiment). I’ve found it’s a more realistic/personally meaningful form of trying to get your budget down to an average household income (since that is so variable by location and family size). It’s one thing to say “I don’t know how people do it,” it’s another to say “oh crud how am I going to do it?” Anything you have to cut on this disaster budget, maybe you could cut back 25-50% on from your regular budget.
First couple of times I tried it, we couldn’t get there without selling a car and moving to a tiny house. Now 5 years later with her student loans gone and some tighter living all around (and my wife getting a couple raises), we could reasonably do it without losing too much of our lifestyle.
“Unfortunately, I seem to be most talented at helping those in the best financial shape and the least talented at helping those in poor financial shape”
WCI- I think you mean unfortunately some people don’t listen to my advice and end up in a worse financial situation.
” I’m beyond 5 years out and in my mid-30s so I’ve missed the ball and can no longer afford to live like a resident”
-It sounds like he can no longer afford not to live like a resident to get his financial house in order. This statement really irks me, stop being entitled and do the necessary work for the outcome you desire.
Your advice is correct. I guess the issue is how you get that across, how blunt should you be, etc without scaring people away.
This guy is saying he can’t live like a resident, but really he can still live pretty well, cut back his debt and start saving without actually living like a resident. To do that he’s going to have to give up some stuff, which is probably the issue.
The advice given in my mind is spot on. My model was to pay myself first. Advice – 20% of every penny that comes through your door (after tax income) goes into an investment account – qualified plan first then regular investment account. What is left do whatever you want.
I think that for many such people, this is exactly what they need to hear. Step 1 is to get rid of high interest debt (e.g. payoff credit card, sell the pricey cars). Step 2 is to make a 20% gross savings rate automatic. Step 3 is to live on the rest without going into debt ever again. As long as appropriate insurance is maintained and no real catastrophes happen, they’ll be fine when they reach ‘typical’ retirement age.
Spot on. There is nothing modest about a car you can’t buy with cash. My first car was $700 and second one $1200. There’s a car for cash in every budget
I was thinking the same thing. 50k in cars is now modest?! Let’s do a reality check for our guest. Our income is twice yours and my daily driver is a newly acquired in great shape 2005 Toyota Corolla. Cost? $3200 including a set of snow tires. We splurged for my wife. 2013 low miles AWD Toyota Highlander, $19,900 cash.
Something else to consider is, how much is daycare? Is it so much that it is not worth it for your wife to work? Do you need to take your kids to such an expensive daycare? And to echo everyone else, budget budget budget. You are spending left and right. Write it down and see where the money is actually going. Take the money for retirement out before you even see it so you are not tempted to use it.
Maybe modest compared to the Joneses? Husband and I just bought our first car, a used 2014 RAV4 for <$20k (in cash) and we thought that was pricey already.
Whoa, bummer that your assumption was that the wife is the low earner in the family and the one who should quit her job to stay home with the kids to save on daycare expenses. WCI refers to “your husband” in his response above implying that the writer (the MD) is the wife. Or perhaps they are two male spouses. Just sayin’.
Sorry, I quick read through things, did not catch that, did not mean anything by it. Please do not turn me in. The content is what matters, please forgive the form.
You know guys, I go to great lengths to try to de-identify the people behind these situations, so much so that sometimes they don’t even recognize themselves. But sometimes something slips through the editing process (like not replacing husband with partner) and commenters get so focused on trying to figure out who is who, gender, specialty, location etc. Just realize that I’m actively TRYING hard to hide these details from you. Also, I sometimes DELIBERATElY reverse the genders, just for fun. And truth be told, during the interval between writing the post and running it, I usually couldn’t even figure out who sent the original email. Just assume when you read these that the genders have been changed, the specialty has been changed, the location has been changed, and all the most meaningful numbers have been changed enough that the original questioner may even wonder if this is them.
Good work, we all need to focus on the real issues which are not gender, race, etc.
50k for two people isn’t crazy for two car loans for two people IF (emphasis) they are recent leases. If the initial amount was 80k for two cars then it’s a bit much. For a 320k gross income it’s not crazy. A newish base trim camry is around that amount. Cost of ownership between a new camry and a lighly used one isn’t that different, about 15 percent a year (1,000) or so. Lease deals with conquest/loyalty bonuses can be very very attractive also, reducing the cost per mile to tiny levels. My friend got a 28,000 msrp suv for 199 a month all inclusive (no money down) for 24 months, 10k miles a year. Conquest bonus and employee pricing due to inlaw working for big 3 gave him this.
I’ve lived on 14-24k net from age 18-30 and as an attending make 230k gross (150k net) in a very high COL coastal city with a budget of 40k a year which includes a lighly used entry level luxury sedan with a 28-31k loan at low interest. Cost of ownership of my one big material desire is about 8k a yr. Savings rate is 48 percent of gross income.
No consumer debt, no mortgage (nor equity in a house), 200k debt at low interest, 50-100k in retirement accounts, 3 month emergency fund (increasing slowly since I’ve been an attending little time).
The OP just has other expenses that are excessive. Perhaps they have a coffee addiction, boat, pricey 5 star vacations, etc. 320k gross is about 210k net in most states which is a fair amount for most. It’s 3-4x what our family had growing up for net income and our family saved 25-30 percent. Our culture really prioritizes saving though.
No, it’s not crazy, but it’s not what most of us would consider to be modest. The two cars combined something north of $50,000 when they bought them. They may not be luxury automobiles, but when I hear “modest car,” I’m thinking a used vehicle that gets you from point A to point B. We drive modest vehicles, and I think the KBB value of the two combined is about $6,000 at this point.
Best,
-PoF
He’s wasting money on the financial advisor if this is what he’s doing with his money. My parents used to make $20-25k combined a year while raising my brother and me. How in the world are they in debt making that amount and think they live modestly? People can only be helped if they acknowledge a problem and are willing to change. It seems like this doc is not ready for that.
“Well, there’s no gastric bypass for your finances.” Amazingly true sentence. It seems that the OP wants to get better, but is not willing to put in the effort to truly do so. Cutting back doesnt mean eating rice and beans and moving into a one bedroom apt, but with 50 grand in car loans theres definitely room to cut back. Even brand new toyota, mazda, hondas can be had for under 30 grand. Hopefully the OP reads this post and our comments and starts changing his lifestyle. With a MD salary, mistakes can be fixed, but only if the behavior changes.
Maybe your husband (the writer is female ya’ll, WCI tells her to take his course along w/ her husband), can stay at home and take care of the kids- freeing up that daycare money, learn to manage your finances effectively, sell the expensive cars, research and buy reliable inexpensive cars and you’ll find that like many other two career families- you’ll come out ahead financially? The more kids in daycare- the more the expenses- the less your husband’s effective take home (as the lower earner- that’s the only reason I’m picking on him). He can certainly develop a side hustle from home.
Something to consider anyway.
I’ve got a thought…I think the simple mantra of ‘live like a resident’ doesn’t hit home for many because they were taking out additional loans and racking up credit card debt as a resident. Sadly, I think when some hear this, what they think it means is ‘keep spending more than you make to keep up with the Joneses.’
How anyone has thousands in credit card debt while making 280k is mind boggling.
This is definitely true for some. We had friends while in residency that were living off of credit cards, and because they had already taken out loans for medical school, had become acclimated to just adding to the debt, assuming they would just pay it all off after residency/fellowship without a concrete plan of how they were going to do that. You form bad habits and build the lifestyle creep while you are still forced in debt as a student/resident, and then it just snowballs from there. Even when you don’t have excessive spending or nice things, it’s difficult to live in a middle class/upper middle lifestyle, pay off debt, save for retirement and kids college, and have an emergency fund, which is why sites like WCI are so important to help stay the course.
Others have already started a family while in medical school or residency, and it becomes even harder to live on less when you have dependents that can seriously add to your expenses. We are all more likely to cut back for ourselves but want to do more for our children. I will shop for clothes for myself at Kohl’s and Target, but pay for the dance and karate lessons for the kids. This is true for friends that are not physicians or high earners as well. Keeping up with the Joneses is multiplied once kids are in the picture, because even if you yourself don’t feel the need to keep up, there is increased pressure with children.
Debt is an Emergency is good but I think with Docs….Debt is a Disease is better……Gordon
I liked your obesity analogy and was thinking the same as I was reading along.
When I found the FI community last summer my mind was blown. Pieces everywhere. We were already living mostly like we did as residents but there was no bigger context for us. Finding that “why of FI” makes it all a lot easier to work towards and to make those necessary changes.
When I found our about FI I felt a little like this guy. I wanted a quick, fast tracked way to hit FI. What’s the secret strategy? But there isn’t one. Like Jim said, it is simple but not easy. Discipline, getting off the hedonic treadmill, and really understanding your own motivation for all those wants ! Then you work towards it for a decade or two! No magic prescription.
Our friend highlighted here is hopefully going to start an adventure that will change his life. It won’t be easy but it will be worth it.
Good luck!
Kpeds
I think financial improvement is much easier than obesity improvement. But there are similarities, like no short cuts.
Another big similarity is that it isn’t fair (people have different incomes, loans, genes, metabolisms etc) and not everyone can arrive at the same endpoint (most of us will never look like models or have eight figure net worth) but everyone can improve their unique situation with similar tools.
Who keeps their pet in the basement? Is this like the dog on top of the car?
Even Buffalo Bill kept his dog at ground level.
Better than your kids in the basement, like that major abuse case in California ?
How long until there are car seats for pets?
close enough?
https://zugopet.com/products/the-rocketeer-pack?gclid=CjwKCAjwhevaBRApEiwA7aT53-_OfDrNQLdQSn2CmBj0Z2ornJyisNRnGgvHZAilSOtWnTsUHeQjdhoCdSAQAvD_BwE
Hilarious!
I’d be much less diplomatic Dr Dahle.
What should you say? You ask.
I’m thinking something along the lines of the scene from the movie the big short where the young hedge fund founders go to the reporter at the WSJ to try to get him to see the impending financial crisis and doom.
You’re Casey the reporter, and I, along with other readers I’ve sent this post to, am Charlie Geller.
Casey: What am I supposed to do? Write a piece called “You’re all fxxxed”?
Charlie Geller: Yes! That’s a perfect title!
These questions are great examples of how drs get into their 60s and have net worths<$1m.
One literally says-
“I feel like a lot of advice is geared towards early career doctors and I’m in a position that I’m not willing to change my lifestyle all that much.
I don’t think we are frivolous.”
Well, congrats! You’re never gonna accumulate wealth with that attitude. Eventually the house and cars will be paid off, the kids will be off the payroll, and they’ll, maybe, save a little more. But I imagine at 65 they’ll still be where they are today, essentially living hand to mouth.