The Resident Episode

INTRODUCTION

This is the White Coat Investor podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high-income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is White Coat Investor Podcast number 438.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Welcome to the White Coat Investor podcast. This is Dr. Margaret Curtis. I am a general pediatrician and a White Coat Investor columnist, and I'm filling in today for Dr. Jim Dahle.

The feeling I'm having right now is that feeling when a patient comes in and they think they're going to see their own doctor, and then they get put on your schedule instead, and you go in to see them, and they say, “Oh, we thought we were seeing Dr. Dahle today.” And you say, “I'm so sorry, he's not available. Is it okay if I see you instead?” And they say, “Okay, that would be fine. Will he be back soon?” That's how I'm feeling, and that's how you're feeling too. If you're a little disappointed because you tuned in to hear Dr. Dahle, I'm so sorry, he's not available today, and he'll be back next week.

Welcome to episode 438 – The Resident Podcast. We'll be taking questions from residents and talking to a recent graduate who's about to start his first attending job. He'll tell us about his financial plan, and if you want to learn how to do everything right, you might want to take notes on this one.

But before I dive into that, today's episode is brought to us by SoFi, the folks who help you get your money right. Paying off student debt quickly and getting your finances back on track isn't easy but that's where SoFi can help. They have exclusive low rates designed to help medical residents refinance student loans. That could end up saving you thousands of dollars, helping you get out of student debt sooner.

SoFi also offers the ability to lower your payments to just $100 a month while you're still in residency. And if you're already out of residency, SoFi's got you covered there too. For more information, go to sofi.com/whitecoatinvestor.

SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank, N.A. Member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.

Thank you all for what you do, and especially thank you to the residents. We know you're in the trenches right now. We know you didn't go to medical school to become a resident. You went to medical school to become a physician. We appreciate you, and we're looking forward to welcoming you to the community.

SAVING VS. INVESTING

I'm going to start with a question from a Canadian resident who's working in the United States. She says “I’m a PGY-3, and as a Canadian resident, most of what's on the White Coat Investor doesn't apply to me. My general question is about saving versus investing. I have a line of credit available to me, and I carry some balance on it, but I'm wondering if I should put my money toward that, or put it towards saving for something like a house down payment.”

What I know about the Canadian finance system is really two things. One is that you have health care, lucky you, and the other is that your money is also called dollars. That's all I know. I'm going to trust you to figure out what investment vehicles you have and what retirement savings vehicles you have available to you, but really the generalities of this apply to everyone regardless. There are also some specifics for residents that I will get to.

This is a very, very common question. You'll see it all the time on forums and financial blogs, but there are some specifics for residents because your situation is unlike most people in the general public. First I'll talk about the general principles of saving versus investing, and then I'll get into what residents should be thinking about.

The question of whether to save or invest or pay down debt really comes down to do you think you'll do better receiving interest from your investments or paying interest on your debt? Now, you don't always know the interest you're going to receive from your investments. What we think of as vehicles for long-term wealth, like the stock market and real estate, have no guaranteed return. Over time, historically, they tend to do well. The stock market averages around 8% return over many, many years, but there's no guarantee. Whereas the interest rate you're paying on your debt is known to you, unless you have an adjustable rate mortgage. I'll get into that in a second.

Most people would agree that if you carry high-rate debt, and I'm talking about double-digit interest rates, you should pay that off first. The higher the rate, the faster you should pay it off. And that's things like credit card debt, some unsecured loans, you should pay that down as a priority.

If you have very low-interest-rate debt, like you had a mortgage at 2% that you refinanced back in 2020, most people would say you should keep that debt, keep that line of credit open, and put any extra cash you have toward investing instead.

Now, there are some nuances in there. Some of this has to do with your age and where you are in your career. The longer time you have to invest, the longer your time frame, the more likely you are to receive those higher rates of return over time. It's called time in the market, and it's more important than time being in the market.

If you are younger and early in your career, you probably want to take advantage of that long exposure to the stock market that you'll get by investing some right now. And at the same time, you have more working years ahead of you, so you may want to carry some low-interest debt going forward, knowing that you have plenty of opportunity to pay it off.

That's not so true later in your career as you approach retirement. No one wants to take that into retirement. And when you're older, you have less time ahead of you to stay in the stock market. Most people would say pay off debt aggressively before you retire, even low-interest-rate debt.

I think another nuance in there is your own personal comfort level with debt. Not that any of us should aspire to be comfortable with all that, but some people just hate knowing they owe money, even at a very low interest rate. I have a very dear friend who was widowed in her 30s with two young children, and her husband had a very small life insurance policy, and she used some of the benefits from that to pay off her mortgage.

And you could argue that she should have saved that money and put it towards college or whatever. But for her, it was really important to know that she owned her house outright as she was trying to navigate raising two kids on her own. I think that was the right decision for her. You may find that you just feel better paying off your debt, and I don't think anyone could really fault you for that.

That's the big picture. Now, there are some particulars for residents, because you're in a different situation than most of the general public. You are more likely to carry debt, which may be high at a high rate, from student loans, from moving to start residency. You have high earning potential in the future, but you have low current earnings.

The priorities for residents kind of create something that's called the resident waterfall. You can see it on the White Coat Investor webpage. The first thing to do is just secure yourself. Get disability insurance, get term life insurance, especially if you have a spouse or kids who are depending on your earnings. And the reason to get them now is that it will never be cheaper than it is right now. You are the youngest you're ever going to be. Hopefully, if you're in good health, you'll be able to get insurance at a quite low rate and lock it in now. So, go ahead and get disability insurance and life insurance. You should have a small emergency fund. Three to six months' expenses is about right for most people. And as a resident, you're probably living pretty lean, and so that's not a whole lot of money.

You should refinance your private loans if they're at a high interest rate. You can look into some of the student loan repayment programs. I'm not going to get into those in depth here, because honestly, the landscape is changing so fast that I think that information is going to be very quickly outdated. But start thinking about your plan for repaying your student loans.

And at the same time, of course, when you're a resident, your priority really is just becoming the best doctor you can be. But also, if you can, carve out a little time to improve your career and financial literacy. So maybe read a little. Maybe cruise the blog a little. Go to a conference if you can to set yourself up for success in the future, so you have some knowledge to prepare you as you make these bigger decisions down the road.

And then we can start talking about investing. If your employer, if your residency program offers you access to a retirement program and a match, you should absolutely take that. A match is free money. So, prioritize that ahead of other things. If you still have some money after that, you could consider a Roth IRA. This is a great time in your life to do a Roth, because your salary now is lower than it will ever be as an attending. So putting away money after you paid taxes on it, letting it grow tax-free, and then taking it out tax-free can be a huge benefit to you down the road.

You can consider a health savings account. A health savings account is a special kind of savings vehicle that you have access to when you have a high deductible health plan. You put it in as pre-tax money, so you don't pay taxes on it. If you take it out to use for healthcare expenses, it stays tax-free. Or if you take it out later in life to use for anything you want, it's also tax-free. It's called triple tax protected, which makes it a very valuable investment.

And then if you have money left over after that, consider just maxing out your retirement accounts, using a Roth if possible, and then start thinking about things like taxable investments, a house down payment, things like that.

Now, you might be disappointed to hear that a house down payment is really one of the last things you should consider. And I'm going to get into that when I answer some of these questions. But in general, it's not a great idea to buy a house when you're a resident, and not even for the first few years out of residency. Most physicians don't stay in their first attending job. Either they change jobs in their area, or they move entirely. And it's really a good idea to not be tied down at that point in your career.

You also will find it much easier to save up for a down payment as an attending than you do as a resident. After a couple of years of living like a resident, living below your means, while making an attending salary, you'll be able to save up a really nice down payment and be able to afford a house that you love. I hope that helps. Thank you for your question and best of luck in your training.

Okay, now we're going to take some questions. There are several questions today about buying a house as a resident. I'm going to combine them because they're very similar in tone and in substance.

BUYING A HOUSE AS A RESIDENT

“New resident mortgage, how much do I expect to be pre-approved for? Looking into potential homeownership when starting residency next year. How much do new residents typically get approved for with a physician loan at $60,000 to $65,000 income? We will not have verifiable spouse income at the time of applying.”

Another one is physician mortgage as a resident. “Fourth year, waiting to hear match results for general surgery. I'm strongly considering buying a home using a physician mortgage versus renting for the five to six years of residency. I'm very fortunate, will graduate with zero debt. I'm not trying to go out and buy some $500,000 home as a resident. My rough estimate range is $250,000 to $300,000. This obviously depends on where I match.

Given that I have zero debt and these loans as I understand them often offer zero down and waive PMIs, private mortgage insurance. Is this something I can reasonably consider or is the smarter move to rent for the next five years and plan to buy once my income increases as an attending? If this is something I can consider, any advice on the steps I should be taking once I find out where I match?”

Okay, so first of all, Jim Dahle will kill me if I say, go ahead and buy a house as a resident. And I think he's right. Of course, you'll find people who say, “We bought a house as a resident, it was great and we made a killing.” But those folks were really, really lucky. Most residencies, even long surgical residencies, aren't long enough for you to be confident that you will make money on the sale of a house or even break even. And in worst case scenario, you are underwater. You owe more than you can sell the house for. And as a resident, you're really busy. Home ownership is demanding. It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort.

So, generally don't encourage people to buy as a resident. You are saying, if you're thinking about a house that's going to cost $250,000 to $300,000, you're probably looking at lower cost of areas, which is great. But historically, those areas don't appreciate as much as more expensive areas. Of course, I don't know how anyone would buy a house in an expensive area, high cost of living area as a resident. I just don't know how you guys do it.

So, here's what I really want to talk about is physician loans. Physician loans are jumbo loans. They're very large loans, specifically for physicians and other people with high incomes. As this writer said, they often waive the requirement for a down payment. They waive the requirement for private mortgage insurance, which you typically have to have if you don't have a down payment. They let you borrow more than you would normally qualify for with your salary.

The problem I have with these loans is, first of all, those guardrails are in place for a reason. If you don't have a down payment and you don't have that income, you are going to be hard-pressed to pay your mortgage. It's especially true if it's one of these adjustable rate mortgages.

You will typically get kind of a teaser rate, which is a lower rate early on, and they readjust later. Either you know it's going to be a higher rate or you have no way of knowing what the rate is going to be. It could depend on the market. Many people found out, much to their dismay, how much their mortgage rates could go up back in 2008. An adjustable rate mortgage is really not a good idea, especially when you are buying at kind of the max of what you're capable of.

The other reason I don't like these loans is that it's very easy to go too big on your house purchase. Any broker or realtor who is worth their salt will try and upsell you. They will say, “Oh, this is the doctor's neighborhood, this is the doctor's house, because they know you're going to be good for it down the road.” But you really don't want to be tied to a bigger mortgage than you can afford.

So, I don't encourage doing this. I don't encourage using a physician loan. It's much, much smarter to wait until you're in attending, save your money for a couple years, and have a nice down payment on a nice house that you can actually afford.

SHOULD YOU START ROTH IRA AS A RESIDENT?

Two related questions about saving and investing. Dear Auntie Marge. It doesn't actually say that, I just wanted it to. “Dear Auntie Marge, should I as a resident start a Roth IRA? I have 2.5 years left of residency, projected to make $250,000 to $300,000. Residency offers a 403(b) retirement plan without matching, which I've been putting money into. I also started a savings account this year. Is it a good idea to start a Roth IRA now or wait until I'm in attending? I feel like with student loan payments pending, rising rent and housing prices, that is it even worth it to put money into a Roth IRA now in residency? I don't spend a lot, but I do enjoy eating out or traveling during time off.”

And the second related question is, “I'm a resident with a couple thousand put aside just for investing, and I'm new to it all. Where do I put it for long-term growth?”

To answer the first question, yes, you should start a Roth IRA. The reason to start one in residency is that your salary now is much lower than it's ever going to be again. And the beauty of a Roth is you pay tax on that money before you put it into savings, and then it grows tax-free. And when you take it out, it's still tax-free. So, putting it in now while you are in a lower tax bracket is definitely to your advantage.

If you've been putting money into a 403(b) retirement plan without a match, I would say skip the 403(b) and use the Roth IRA instead. If your employee offered a match, I would say invest enough in that just to get the match because it's free money. But after that, switch over to a Roth IRA. You might even have Roth options within the 403(b).

Yes, start a Roth IRA. And then to the resident with a couple thousand put aside just for investing, I'm going to assume you've done everything else in the resident waterfall. You've got disability insurance, life insurance if you need it. You've got a plan for paying off your student loans. You've done all the things. And now you find yourself a little extra cash to invest. Get that Roth IRA open and put it into a long-term investment like an index fund at Vanguard or Fidelity or Schwab.

Lots of exposure to stocks because you're still young and got a lot of years of working ahead of you. You've got a long time horizon to this investment. So, put it into a stock market, total market index fund and just leave it alone. All right. I hope that helps.

INTERVIEW WITH DR. PATRICK ARPIN

Hi, this is Dr. Patrick Arpin. He just graduated from pediatric residency and is about to start his new job in Washington State. How are you, Patrick? It's nice to see you again.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Doing well. Thanks for having me on, Dr. Curtis. It's great to be here.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Of course, of course. I should explain that I knew Patrick when he was a resident and I think one of our first conversations was about the White Coat Investor.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
It was, yeah. Actually, I was thinking back on it when we talked about doing this podcast. I was at the time looking at getting term life insurance because I'd just gotten married. And I came to you and had known that you had written some columns for the blog and were active in the community and wanted to pick your brain on it a little bit. So we talked about setting up a ladder policy, I think.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Yeah, yeah. That's right. And I remember that. And you're a bit of a ringer, I have to say, because you've been following the White Coat Investor for a while. And even before that, you were pretty savvy financially. So you really set yourself up. Can you tell us a little bit about how you set yourself up even before residency?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah. I was first introduced to White Coat Investor in medical school. One of my classmates, I think, was part of the Champions Program or at the early start of that, 2017 or 2018. We all got a copy of the book, which was really cool.

But even before that, going back all the way to high school, my summer job, I opened up a Roth IRA and was putting just a little bit of money, kind of $25, $50 from each paycheck into that. And from an early age, I was thinking about how do I set myself up for success? And then found the White Coat Investor and things have evolved since then.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's amazing. Do you mind if I ask how much is in your Roth now?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Close to $70,000-ish, I think.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That is amazing.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah. I made some other mistakes early on. I was doing a lot of individual stock trading and made some nice gains on some, Apple, but others not so much. And I've since kind of consolidated everything into more just ETFs. And I have a very “boring” portfolio of ETFs. And that's just letting it do its thing and continue to grow well.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's great. Boring is really good for portfolios. It shouldn't be exciting.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Great. And I think we also talked last year about your next step and what you're going to do as your first attending job. Tell us what you're doing now and how you ended up choosing that?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah. I am starting as a pediatric hospitalist out in Washington state. My wife and I just did a big cross-country move, which was very, very fun. And we can talk about that in a little bit, but as far as my job, I was really torn my third year of pediatric residency of looking at fellowship versus getting out and just starting to work and become an attending.

And I knew long-term, I'm originally from Montana, that I wanted to be in a more rural kind of community setting rather than at a larger city or academic institution. And when I was thinking about fellowship options, one of the things that really I enjoyed in residency was critical care. And then thinking about kind of, “Well, what type of jobs would that be like for a job market long-term?”

And a lot of PICUs are consolidating into larger centers. There are those smaller community ones that do exist, but I was thinking about just from the standpoint of marketability and where I want to live. I kind of realized that community pediatric hospital medicine is going to be where I find my niche. That's kind of what drew me to applying to be a pediatric hospitalist. And I'm excited to get that part of my career going and jump into it. I'm a little nervous.

But I was also able to kind of use resources throughout residency. Dr. O'Day, our program director, I remember I met with her one day and she said, there was a resident here a couple of years ago who was feeling the same kind of question. And she pulled out her phone and texted her. And then two days later, we had an hour-long conversation about her career decisions and the things she was thinking about. That was really helpful. And I think for a lot of residents, if you're facing this conundrum, utilizing your networking resources was huge for me.

But a lot of programs are very supportive to really want to make sure that their residents, when they graduate, have something in place and have confidence in what they want to do. And so, using that is a big asset to think about.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's so great. Were there any other mentors, either formal or informal, who helped you as you figured this out?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Also just a lot of the attendings at our program were helpful. And then just thinking introspectively, I think was another thing that I spent a lot of time thinking about and really just making sure I'm not jumping into a decision right away and taking some time.

I think a lot of residents, if they know they're not going into fellowship, will probably start their job search in year two, or if it's a three-year program, or maybe about a year before they graduate. And I actually didn't start mine until the winter of third year, which is some might say a little bit late, but for me, it worked out because when I started looking at jobs, it was like the fates or the stars aligned and jobs were opening up or being posted in places that I wanted to live in. So I was like, “Oh, well, this is convenient. Maybe it wasn't posted a year ago when I might've been looking, but now here it is.”

And so, I was able to have a lot of success and went on four in-person interviews, was able to really get a feel for each place. And then I think the hardest decision was deciding between two places, which both checked almost every box. And it was like, how do you put yourself in two different places and having to choose one of them, but my wife and I are pretty excited.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's great. I really do think there's a certain kind of serendipity or something that happens when you find the right job in the right path, everything kind of falls into place. And if you're struggling, it's probably not the right path, but that's been my experience anyway. It sounds like it was for you too, with this job.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's great. And so, coming back to the financial aspects of it, how would you describe what you did in medical school and residency to set yourself up to put you where you are now?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah. I think I would break it down into, I guess, three kind of buckets. One, things I did, and I have been doing since before medical school and residency and really trying to set some of those habits and behaviors in place. A lot of people talk about where you'll hear about it sometimes in the community of paying yourself first. Taking some of that money that's coming in and putting it into retirement, knowing that that money is going to sit there and it's not going to be touched for 30, 40, 50 years, and then just let it grow. Being kind of disciplined to do that.

And prior to medical school, I was a non-traditional medical school applicant and I took some time off between college. I had old 401(k)s or 403(b)s that I consolidated during residency into my residency 403(b). During residency, I contributed to maximize the match from my employer. And then I did a separate Roth IRA that I maximized every year, which was a little tough.

And I recognize I'm in a very fortunate position that my spouse also is working full-time. And so, we're kind of dual income. We have no children. We do have a dog, but that is a lot easier than, I know I have some colleagues that have children in residency and people are in different circumstances, but I think trying to do as much as you can and knowing that don't compare yourself to other people necessarily. If you're trying to stick to the basics and really work and be disciplined, that's where you're going to start seeing those dividends pay off.

And then when you come into the position of having an attending salary, you're going to have more income and you already have those kind of habits in place. So it's very easy to then maximize all of your retirement accounts. And now you have this extra discretionary income afterward.

Some other things I did is once I moved everything into my employer retirement account for my old 401(k)s and 403(b)s, I did a Roth conversion, which our plan allowed, which was nice. Now all of my retirement is in Roth and I have an empty, basically traditional IRA that I can then start using as a backdoor in 2026, which I'm planning to do because we'll be above the Roth threshold at that point.

And then I took some other things that I did. We didn't have an HSA at my residency, but I had a previous HSA. So that's just kind of been sitting there. I do get an HSA option at my new job. I'm going to start utilizing that as well, just as another vehicle for retirement.

And then one thing that was told to me, my intern year by one of my advisors was that if you can save a little bit of money from every paycheck, $25, $50 or something, whether that's in part of your emergency fund or a separate account or an envelope that you are saying like, “This is my going to be my end of residency expenses.” And so, things that you don't think about. The pediatric boards were about $3,000 that I had to pay in March or April. And I'm sure every board is different, but having that money upfront to be able to pay for some employers will reimburse your board costs. And I think some fellowship programs will too, is what I've heard, but it's not universal.

So don't put yourself in a position where you're banking on that. And then all of a sudden, “Oh, my job or my fellowship program is not paying for my boards. And now I have to come up with $3,000 plus.

Also moving expenses, that can add up pretty quick too. So just if you have a little bit of cushion from that standpoint, I think it can be helpful. And again, just being a little bit forward thinking. And I'm not perfect. I was very fortunate that my wife is also disciplined and we're not big spenders per se. We spoil our dog, but outside of that, we do a lot of just hiking and things outdoors where we're not spending a lot of money.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Yeah. Yeah. You guys are very disciplined and you've really done all the right things. You've walked through the resident financial priorities beautifully. Have you done anything fun? Have you splurged on anything recently?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah. We did make a couple of purchases. One big one is we just, during residency, my wife is very much like, I want to get a new mattress. And I said, “Well, if we're moving in a year or two, three years, what's the point of getting one now? Because we're going to have to pay to move it. Let's just use what we're having.”

We were on a full, two people on a full mattress with a 55 pound dog. My wife was very patient with me and we have moved. And since one of the first things we bought a new mattress and we just went and got a nice solid wood bed frame too. And that is another thing where it's like, “Wait, how much is this?” And you're like, I don't know. But at that point where we're now investing in buying the pieces of things that we want to keep for forever or for as long as we can.

I also bought myself a new coffee maker, which I probably took about… And if any of my co-former residents are listening to this or listen to it, they'll be like, “Oh my gosh, he's been talking about this coffee maker forever.” Probably more than a year, but I bought myself a new coffee maker.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Nice. I'm happy for you. Boy, talk about delayed gratification. You're living below your means. But it is okay to start putting in place some of the things you want. Wants as well as needs, especially at this point, because you're so set up for success and you're not doing crazy things. You're not buying Lamborghinis. You're just taking care of some of your household basics.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's great. Have you enjoyed the coffee maker?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
I have. Yes. Actually, it's nice and it looks nice too. It looks like one of those KitchenAid mixers and they come in different colors and a bit of a conversation piece sometimes.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Okay. All right. You've got some bougie coffee maker. And what about the next six months to a year? Any changes you're planning other than starting the Roth IRA? Anything you're going to do differently as a new attending?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
From a financial planning standpoint, my wife and I are now going to start consolidating our expenses. And one of the things that we were waiting to do too, because we got married my third year of residency, is instead of opening up a new bank account locally where we were living, a joint bank account, we're going to establish one here. That's one thing that is on our checklist.

I was able to get life insurance like we talked about at the start. When I talked to you shortly after I got married, I set up life insurance and have that checked off. Disability insurance, I was very fortunate my parents were also forward thinking and kind of got me a policy starting my fourth year of medical school, which is probably a little early, but I've since taken that over and have that check mark box.

Things that I'm really hoping to do in the next six to 12 months is one, get that emergency fund beefed up a little bit. Subsequently, also get a housing fund. It's kind of the next thing that we're looking for. We're renting. And one thing I wanted to say to a lot of people in my position or to anybody listening is to normalize that feeling of you feel like you're behind or you need to do more or all of my friends from college, and not all of them, but many of my friends from college and high school, have houses, they have their family started. And it's like, I'm in my mid-thirties starting my first big job. And I'm like, “Gosh, I'm so behind.”

But at the same time, when I think about remove the emotional aspect from it and think kind of logically realize I'm actually really fortunate. My wife and I are in a very good position and our path is our path and it's not anybody else's and anybody else's path is their path and it's not mine. So, just normalizing that.

When I think about all of the successes that I've had it's recognizing that and being appreciative of that more than thinking, “Gosh, I'm behind and I need to do more.” And so, I feel that too. I think a lot of people feel that. Just normalizing that feeling.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Yeah, I think that's really well put. I think not buying a house is one of the biggest, most obvious symbols of delayed gratification. It can be really hard. It can be hard as you're grinding away and studying and studying and working to see your friends buying houses.

But you're right. The day does come and hopefully you'll be in a position to buy the house that you love. And I can tell you now, I'm 20 years older than you are, that it really pays off because things really come to fruition over time. And it's pretty amazing. And then you get to a point where you do have the things that you want and not to say that people who bought too early don't. Life is not that simple, but it really does work. I'm really excited for you guys.

And especially because pediatrics is a famously low paying field. And unfortunately, that dissuades people from pediatrics, which is too bad because it's the best field in medicine. You know that. And you're really showing how it can be done, how you can set yourself up and have a great life and still have lots of career choices, even in pediatrics.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Absolutely.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Yeah. Is there anything else you would like to tell people or you wish you had known? Sounds like you have lots of good advice along the way and good role models, but anything you would like to tell people?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah, I think no matter where you are, enjoy the things that you like to do. And you can find ways to enjoy life without feeling strapped in. And everybody's a little bit different. I think a lot of people that are on this podcast and listen to this podcast we come from very high income professions, but I'm sure there's people who are listening who maybe aren't making these large incomes. And doing the best that you can and keeping it to your path and not comparing yourself to other people.

And if you're disciplined, I think that's the big thing, is just developing good habits and discipline and trusting that process. And that's what's gotten me to where I'm at. And I'm excited to see the next steps my wife and I go in terms of our family and finances and just starting to enjoy the fruits of all that discipline over the last 10 or 15 years.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
I'm excited to see where you guys end up too and hear about your new attending job. And maybe we can have you back on the podcast in a year or so to tell us more about where you're at. And I think before long, we can have you on the Milestones to Millionaires podcast.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
I know, I've been thinking about applying to that for a while. This was a nice way to dip my toes, I think.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Absolutely. Well, you can tell me when you're there. You don't have to get too detailed if you don't want to. But just shoot me a message when you're there and we'll put you on the podcast. And then last but not least, I want to hear about your cross-country road trip for your move.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah, we took about 14 days to go cross-country. We drove, I did the odometer.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
With the dog? The dog was in the car, right?

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
The dog was in the car. Yeah, he got a little bit of medicine a couple days because he gets a little anxious. But we were able to check off four more national parks. One of our goals is to visit all 63. Who knows? It might be more if they make more, hopefully not less, but we were at 25.

We went to Voyagers in northern Minnesota, Theodore Roosevelt in North Dakota, a quick drive through Yellowstone. We need to go back to really explore that park. And then we spent three days and two and a half days in Glacier, which was amazing and a place that I also want to go back to very much and explore.

And along the way was great because I was able to stay with friends from high school, a couple of colleagues from medical school and be able to stop and meet them and just catch up. And so, that was a nice way. Instead of flying everything across country, we decided to drive, took a little bit more time. Sure, we paid for gas, but we were able to see old friends and stay with them. And that helped with expenses a little bit there. I think utilizing something like that, if you have the means and the ability to do it. So that was a lot of fun, too.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That sounds fantastic. And everything doesn't have to be about saving every penny. You've got to enjoy your life too. I'm so glad you took some time before starting your first job. And I really think that if people can afford it, if you can afford it, take time between training and your first job, take time between jobs when you change jobs, because how often do you get a chunk of time off? Not very often. So, good for you. That sounds fantastic. And you're in the middle of all these great national parks now.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
I know. Yeah.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
You'll have to let me know if you go up to Alaska. I want to hear about your Alaska trips, too, because there are plenty of places up there to explore.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Yeah, those will be ones that I think we're going to have to really plan out because some of them are only accessible by boat or seaplane. We're looking forward to those and absolutely Olympic, Rainier and North Cascades. We're very close to North Cascades, so we'll probably be going there quite a bit. And then we want to get down into California. I haven't been to any of the California parks yet, so there's a lot to explore there.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
That's great. Good for you. Good. Well, thank you so much for your time, Patrick. I really do appreciate it. Great to see you again. Keep me posted. Let me know how things are going, and we'll get you back on sometime soon.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Dr. Curtis.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
I appreciate your time. Talk to you later. Bye.

Dr. Patrick Arpin:
Bye.

Dr. Margaret Curtis:
Thank you, Dr. Arpin, for your time. And thank you all for listening.

SPONSOR

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Head up, shoulders back. You got this, and we can help.

DISCLAIMER

The hosts of the White Coat Investor are not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation

INTRODUCTION

This is the White Coat Investor podcast Milestones to Millionaire – Celebrating stories of success along the journey to financial freedom.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is Milestones to Millionaire podcast number 241 – Plastic Surgeon Receives PSLF and Becomes a Millionaire.

This podcast is sponsored by Bob Bhayani of Protuity. He is an independent provider of disability insurance and planning solutions to the medical community in every state and a long-time White Coat Investor sponsor. He specializes in working with residents and fellows early in their careers to set up sound financial and insurance strategies.

If you need to review your disability insurance coverage or to get this critical insurance in place, contact Bob at www.whitecoatinvestor.com/protuity. Or you can also email [email protected] or you can just call (973) 771-9100.

Okay, I may be seeing Bob soon, actually. We often have a get together with our sponsoring insurance agents at WCICON. We've got WCICON coming up again. You are in the middle of the early bird period. In fact, you're about at the end of the early bird period. In fact, I don't even know if you can still register for WCICON as I record this because I'm recording this before registration goes live. And maybe we sold out the first day. I don't know.

But at any rate, if we didn't sell out the first day, this early bird registration ends tomorrow, the 23rd. So, don't wait. You get $300 off if you register during the early bird pricing. Go to wcievents.com. The regular pricing with that discount is $1,699. The premium is $2,199.

It's going to be awesome. We're going to Vegas. Going back to Vegas. It's been six years since we were there. And if you love Vegas because of stuff on the Strip, that's great. We're only 10 miles away from the Strip, but we're not on the Strip. If you love Vegas for the reasons I do, which is that it's got some pretty awesome outdoor deserty stuff to do, we're a little bit closer to that. We're about five miles from Red Rock National Recreation Area.

We're kind of in between the Strip and the outdoorsy stuff in Vegas. It's an awesome resort hotel. We've got an incredible lineup of speakers. Maybe the best lineup of speakers we've ever had. We've got three new workshops we've never done before at the conference that are going to be awesome. Great people leading those workshops.

And of course, we have the usual fun stuff when we knock off at three or four in the afternoon to go spend some time on the golf course, spend some time playing pickleball. I think I'm leading some hikes this year. It's going to be awesome at WCICON. But you can save yourself $300 if you register today instead of waiting until whatever, December, to register for it. Go to wcievents.com, take advantage of that early bird pricing, and we'll see you at the Physician Wellness and Financial Literacy Conference.

Okay, we got a great interview today. As you heard in the title, this is a plastic surgeon. This plastic surgeon has met not one goal, but two goals, and gets pretty vulnerable with us. Talks a little bit about his past, and I think you're going to enjoy that.

Stick around afterward. I want to talk a little bit about PSLF. There's a lot of fear out there about PSLF that I'm going to try to eradicate in this podcast.

INTERVIEW

Our guest today on the Milestone to Millionaire podcast is Rob. Rob, welcome to the podcast.

Rob:
Thanks for having me, Jim. I've been a long-time listener.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Well, it's always fun to have long-time listeners on here. But let's introduce you to all the other long-time listeners. Tell us what you do for a living, how far you're out of training, and what part of the country you're in.

Rob:
I am an academic plastic surgeon. I specialize in reconstructive microsurgery as well as upper extremity surgery. I have a bit of a unique practice. I do about 50% breast reconstruction and 50% elective hand surgery with really a minimal call requirement, but I do take facial and hand trauma call as I'm in an academic center. I just finished my fourth year, so I'm starting my fifth year, and I'm in Texas.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay, four-plus years out of training. Tell us what milestones you've recently accomplished.

Rob:
A while back, I've been meaning to submit my application to the podcast for a while, but I got public service loan forgiveness during my second year of practice. And then my wife and I achieved millionaire status shortly thereafter. We were hoping to get it by age 40, but we ended up being like 40 and a half before it happened.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. Now, this does not surprise me, knowing your specialty, that you got this a couple of years out of training. A lot of people that don't really dive into the details on public service loan forgiveness may not realize that all those years of training count. And the payments may be very low, especially if there's a three-and-a-half-year student loan holiday in the middle of it.

Rob:
I actually didn't make any payments as an attending, which is just crazy to think about.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So, how much did you have forgiven via PSLF?

Rob:
As a practice run, I did my wife's PSLF first, because she's also an employee at a state institution. And then I did mine about six months later. Total between the two of us, it was about $340,000.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
$340,000. Okay. And what does she do for a living?

Rob:
She is not a physician, but works at the medical school here. She started when I was an intern, actually. And she's worked her way up from basically program coordinator for the family medical students, and now she's director of academic programs and gotten like 15 promotions since we started. I'm very proud of her too. She's definitely done more than pull her weight.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, that's way more promotions than most doctors ever get, huh?

Rob:
It's just crazy.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay. On your student loans, how much do you think you paid total toward them?

Rob:
Interestingly, I can't access my account anymore, which is how I actually found out that I got PSLF, as I tried to log in and it said I no longer had an account. I thought there was some mistake and that I had to reset my password. I called and they told me I just like no longer had student loans. And that's actually how I found out about it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
They're really organized. It's really a top quality bureaucracy.

Rob:
Yeah, but as I recall, the first few years, the monthly payments were around $250. But then by the end of my training, because I was a PGY-10 by the time I was done, the payments before we went on the pause for COVID were around $1,200.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
A month?

Rob:
Yeah.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay, so you paid a significant amount on these. It wasn't nothing for sure.

Rob:
Yeah, I actually don't like the word forgiveness because I did pay for seven years out of the 10. COVID pause notwithstanding. But I think there are a lot of people out there that make a lot of payments and end up paying a significant amount of money. It's just sort of like how much money should it cost to be a doctor? I don't know. But there are people that get PSLF that still have paid six-figure amounts.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Were all your loans federal?

Rob:
Yes.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay. And what surprised you the most as you went through this process over a decade of qualifying for public service loan forgiveness?

Rob:
Initially, it was really clunky. And one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't monetize my knowledge of PSLF like your website has done. Because at some point, I was walking other residents through it. And I did it for my wife. But I remember it being really, really clunky in the beginning. And so, I got a little tired of it. And I just put myself in IBR. And even when all those other more beneficial programs came out, I just stayed in IBR. I let it ride for the full 10 years. And I was expecting it to be really clunky on the exit ramp also. But it was really, really smooth. I just submitted my stuff and three months later, they were gone.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. Very cool. Well, congratulations on that. And about the time you happened to have six figures of student loans wiped out, you also happened to become a millionaire. Tell us how the two of you did that. It sounds like you've probably been working pretty closely together to do that. You're not that far out of your training. And you're an academic doc to boot. So it's not all an income story. It doesn't sound like. But tell us how you managed to get there.

Rob:
Well, I think one of the reasons I wanted to come on the podcast because I think that there's this idea that academic plastic surgeons are somehow like not well compensated. And that may be the case in some places. I don't know. I haven't worked everywhere. I've only worked at my current institution. But I've not been unhappy with my income since I graduated.

I started off the year out of fellowship. I started it for those three months because I started in September. Obviously, it wasn't very much. It was like $110,000. But every year since then has been in the low $400,000s for me, which is not obviously there. I'm sure there are private practice plastic surgeons that make a lot more money than that. But low $400,000s with a working spouse has been more than enough. And we coupled that two incomes with a savings rate of about 30%. And it's done well for us.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. The student loans went away. What other debts have you dealt with?

Rob:
We got rid of all our consumer debt and more credit card debt. Although every now and then something comes up and we have to carry over a balance. And I'm really annoyed about it but then we just paid off the next month or two. But other than that, we had one car payment that we paid off. And actually, my wife has a new car. We still have one car loan, but it's very manageable for us.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. And tell us about your investments. How do you guys invest? You said you're saving 30%-ish.

Rob:
Yeah, we really take advantage of the state employee thing. We have six tax-advantaged retirement accounts between the two of us. And we use basically my income to max out all her accounts too. I've got my three and then she's got three that we max out.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
These are 403(b)s and 401(a)s and 457s or what are they?

Rob:
Correct. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Pretty typical combination for academic docs.

Rob:
Yeah, I think so.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Are you doing backdoor Roths too?

Rob:
Embarrassingly, I've only done two out of four years because it took me a while to understand how taxes work.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
I loved it in our community. That's embarrassing, right? Whereas most people don't even know what a backdoor Roth is. Two out of four is way ahead of most Americans.

Rob:
Well, I've tried to manage our own finances, just more for my education because I think at some point it's going to maybe be a little bit too much for me to do on my own. But getting my head around taxes also took a little bit longer than I had anticipated. And so, I've avoided doing the conversions early in the year because I've always had a little bit of a tax bill in April. But I think I've started to wrap my head around it. And so I think this year we'll definitely do it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, there's a couple of nice things about doing it yourself. One is it's the best paying hobby out there. Financial advice is expensive stuff. And then two, assuming you do it, right? You do it and you do it well. You learn way more when you're doing it yourself.

Rob:
Yeah, I agree.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And I think you become pretty competent, not only managing your finances, but also filing your own taxes. For many years, I did my own taxes. It wasn't until actually my staff forced me to quit doing the corporate return for White Coat Investor. And we sent over to an accountant and they looked over the last couple of them. And I had made very few mistakes on a corporate return. I was feeling pretty good about that. But I don't do my own taxes anymore, but did for many years and really learned a lot about the tax. It was never really more than learning one more form a year, it seems like.

Rob, tell me about your upbringing, what it taught you about money, and maybe some lessons you learned there for better or for worse that led you to how you manage money today.

Rob:
I'm originally from the border of Texas, Mexico. My dad was in the military, which as you know, when you're in the military you're not rich, you're not broke. It can be a perfectly fine life. And my mom was a teacher. She was an ESL teacher down on the border town. And everything was great. When my dad left the army, I think he had a bit of a difficult time transitioning to civilian life. He tried his hand at real estate, and it didn't go very well.

I have a very vivid memory. I was always aware of money and the stress it caused. And I have a very vivid memory of the first time I heard the word “bankruptcy.” I was like 10 years old. And ironically, my parents told me about this when we were on our way out of town for a weekend trip.

The irony of that now being an adult I can see it. But it was an unusual upbringing, because even though we had no money, my parents always projected we were successful, everything was fine. And in hindsight, I can appreciate that maybe that was a protective thing that they were doing, trying to shield me from it. But I definitely picked up some bad habits when I was younger that I had to break out of.

I think it all happened when I was graduating from medical school. And we had the exit interview. And then somebody showed me my debt. And I remember it was just like a switch went off in my brain. And I saw it as like a problem that I was going to solve. And then that's when I got a plan for public service loan forgiveness. And that's when this whole thing started. And I got very serious about personal finance. I found your blog actually back then in 2013, I think.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, there was no podcast in 2013.

Rob:
Yeah. And I remember your website, it was like the silhouette of the white coat, but the background, the banner was like ones and zeros, I think.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
I don't know, but it was very brown before the redesign in 2016.

Rob:
Yeah. Then I took that experience and it allowed me to focus. But in hindsight, it was just such an unusual way to learn about money through seeing a bad example because a lot of people have come on here and talked about good examples, but I had to reconcile that.

My father passed away a couple of years ago. And when I was going through his finances he unfortunately passed with a negative net worth of about $200,000, which was hard to swallow. Because I love my parents and I wanted them to do well. It just made me really sad that that's where he ended up. And also very grateful for these opportunities that I have to have a job where I feel fulfilled.

I think Cam Ward recently, he's a quarterback in the NFL, said something to the effect that he had to watch his dad go to work at 04:30 in the morning every day, doing stuff that he didn't like. So, if he can't get his act together for football, he doesn't deserve it. I feel the same way about being a plastic surgeon. I had to watch my mom and dad do things that maybe they didn't really want to do. And now I get to be a millionaire and a plastic surgeon. It's a pretty phenomenal life.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay. What was the biggest disagreement you and your spouse had about money during the last 10 years as you became millionaires?

Rob:
When I was a resident, we had some issues with buying too many berries at the grocery store. I got really fortunate with my spouse. We're from the same town, sort of from the same background. And we don't get too many disagreements about our finances, which has been really awesome because 10 years of residency was tough for me, but it was also not a whole lot of fun for my wife.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, I'm sure. Well, if berries discussion is as bad as it gets, I think you won there. Nice work. Nice work. What's next for you guys with your financial goals?

Rob:
I would like to have a million dollars in investable assets working in our retirement accounts. And then a long-term goal is, once we hit a net worth of $5 million, I'm going to buy myself a 911 Porsche Turbo S.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool.

Rob:
And then I'm going to drive it into the ground. I'm not just going to leave it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. There's somebody out there like you. Maybe they're just starting a long training period and they're like, I'm going to be in training for six, seven, maybe 10 years. What advice do you have for them that they can be financially successful, despite the fact that they're going to be a PGY-8 or whatever?

Rob:
I think obviously there's a little bit of consternation surrounding public service loan forgiveness right now. But I think just from my experience, have a well thought out plan for the way you want to manage your student loans and your finances and then stick to it. Because they're along the way, there were tons of people that told me, “Oh, PSLF is never going to work. You need to refinance now because of X, Y, or Z.”

But I knew that I had thought about it. And I was going to do 10 years of training, whether I liked it or not. And so, this is what I was going to do. And so, I stuck to it, didn't listen to other people. And also in that same vein, I didn't take advice from just anybody because there's a lot of bad advice out there too.

If you have a bunch of conversations with people that don't really understand what you're going through, it can be problematic, particularly for younger generations when they're talking to surgeons that trained 10, 20, 30 years ago. I work at a medical school and I mentor a lot of medical students and I'm only in my early 40s and I already feel disconnected from that age group by quite a bit. So they have to deal with things that I didn't even really think about. And so, you have to be careful on who you get your advice from too.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Some advice is classic and some advice changes every few years, doesn't it?

Rob:
Right, yeah.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. Well, congratulations to you and your spouse. You guys have done wonderfully. You should be very proud of yourselves. Thank you so much for dedicating 10 years of your life to your craft. When people need a hand surgeon, and I needed a hand surgeon a year ago, we really need a hand surgeon. Thanks so much for learning how to do all that and thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing your story with everybody else to inspire them to do the same.

Rob:
Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay, I hope you enjoyed that interview. I'm super thankful for anybody who operates on hands these days. I may need another hand surgeon. I had a non-union of my scaphoid bone and we're trying to decide what to do about it, whether to just keep doing PT or whether to go do a distal pull resection. If you got an opinion, send me an email about that.

FINANCE 101: PSLF

I promised you at the top of the podcast that we're going to talk a little bit about public service loan forgiveness or PSLF. There was a lot of fear out there that with the One Big Beautiful Bill Act, PSLF was going to go away or be dramatically changed or that nobody was going to be grandfathered into it or whatever. There's all this kind of fear. Some of it was irrational, some of it was totally reasonable.

Well, the truth of the matter is PSLF really didn't change at all as a result of the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. It's still there, okay? If you work full-time, that's defined as 30 plus hours a week for a nonprofit or government employer and you make payments in a qualifying program for 10 years, whatever you still owe in federal student loans goes away, tax-free, it's forgiven. That's public service loan forgiveness. None of that has changed.

There are some changes to the income-driven repayment programs. And some of those were really, really generous. The SAVE plan, which was the last one that the Biden administration came out with, it was kind of put in place by Executive Fiat. It didn't go through an act of Congress, so no surprise. It got tied up in a bunch of court cases and when a new administration swept in, that was pretty much the death knell on it.

It was really generous to doctors. It was awesome. Basically your debt never went up during residency and you only had to make 10% of discretionary income payments and it was a pretty nice program. Well, that one went away.

You got a couple more years if you're in one of these other programs, but three years from now, the only programs that are going to be out there are IBR, which also went through an act of Congress and it requires an act of Congress to go away. And this new income-driven repayment program, the RAP program. And that one's a little bit different. It calculates your payments based on your adjusted gross income, not this discretionary income calculation. And so, for a lot of people, it means higher payments.

Other things change. There is IDR forgiveness. Under the PAY program, you could get IDR forgiveness after 20 years of payments. That was taxable, but you didn't have to work for a nonprofit. You didn't have to work for a government employer. You could just make payments. You don't have to work at all. You're just making these little tiny payments for 20 years. The rest was forgiven. That forgiveness was taxable. Under IBR, it was 25 years. Under this new RAP program, it's 30 years. So that is not nearly as attractive as it was under the PAY program.

With PAY going away, some people who are counting on that program to get taxable forgiveness at 20 years, they have not been grandfathered into that. But anybody going for public service loan forgiveness, things really haven't changed much for you.

Now, new borrowers, people that are coming into medical school now, a year from now, five years from now, things are going to look a little bit different for them. Because a much bigger chunk of their loans, for the last 15 or 20 years, none of your loans have been anything but federal loans. Unless you refinanced them to private loans, you have federal loans. And so they were all basically eligible for PSLF.

Well, in coming years, that's not going to be the case because you're only allowed to borrow about $50,000 a year. I say about, exactly $50,000 a year for medical school. And that's from a federal loan. And that's all that's going to be eligible for forgiveness. You're not going to be eligible to get $400,000 and $500,000 and $800,000 forgiven. It might be something more like $200,000 or $300,000 forgiven.

But that's down the road. If you're already listening to this podcast, you're probably not in that boat. You're probably already in a boat where all your loans are federal. Maybe you're already making payments on it. Maybe you're four years or six years or eight years into this process.

This is going to work out for you just like you plan. If PSLF made sense for you this spring, PSLF makes sense for you this fall. So take a deep breath. Stop panicking about PSLF. It hasn't gone away. We've got some stability in the student loan situation, at least for the next three and a half years. I would plan on that. If it makes sense for you, work toward public service loan forgiveness and say thank you very much to the taxpayer. The taxpayer has decided, if you're willing to work for a nonprofit employer, that they're willing to provide this benefit for you. And I suggest you take advantage of it.

I hope that answers some questions and a lot of the concerns out there I'm hearing about PSLF. I think those who've been following this really closely have been reassured, but I know a lot of people, they just don't follow it that closely. You're busy, right? Especially if you're in residency or fellowship or something, it's hard to keep track of everything all at once, but hopefully this provides you some reassurance.

SPONSOR

This episode was sponsored by Bob Bhayani at Protuity. One listener sent us this review about Bob. “Bob has always been absolutely terrific to work with. Bob has quickly and clearly communicated with me by both email and or telephone with responses to my inquiries usually coming the same day. I have somewhat of a unique situation and Bob has been able to help explain the implications underwriting process in a clear and professional manner.”

Contact Bob at www.whitecoatinvestor.com/protuity. You can email [email protected], you can call (973) 771-9100. But however you do it, if you don't have disability insurance or you just need your disability insurance reviewed, get it done today before you develop some sort of a medical problem and certainly before you become disabled.

Besides, the sooner you get it, the cheaper it is and the longer it may pay you benefits for. So there's no reason to wait on disability insurance. If you're making money, go get some disability insurance, whitecoatinvestor.com/protuity.

All right, keep your head up, shoulders back. You've got this. We're here to help. The whole White Coat Investor community is standing behind you. We'll see you next time on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast.

DISCLAIMER

The hosts of the White Coat Investor are not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.