[Editor's Note: I originally ran this post back in June 2015. Some things have changed since then (including a divorce unfortunately) but the valuable contributions Pete Adeney has made to the FIRE community still remain. He (and his teachings) also remain surprisingly controversial. Like with Dave Ramsey, there is a plethora of useful principles to learn from him, even if you don't agree with everything. Like with all personal finance folks (including me), take what you find useful and leave the rest.]
I was perusing the Mr. Money Mustache blog the other night on a slow night shift. I really like Pete (yes, he actually does have a name) from meeting him both in-person and online. (We first met at a swanky dinner paid for by somebody else.) We're pretty much the same age, live in similar areas of the country and share lots of interests — we both enjoy personal finance, we hate spending money on stuff that doesn't make us happier, we both enjoy cycling, although I confess not to enjoy it very much in the snow, and we have both conditioned ourselves to enjoy suffering just for the sake of suffering.
We do have some differences. He has more money (I think) and spends less of it. I make more money (I think) and definitely spend more time earning it. He retired at 30. I had not yet started working at 30. At any rate, if you're not familiar with his financial philosophy, you would do well to learn about it. Let me sum it up in a nutshell. First, his story.
Mr. Money Mustache's Story
He and his wife graduated from college and were making a decent amount of money. They saved 65% of it for seven years, then retired at 30 so they could raise a family. They still do some work, both for free and for pay, but are not financially required to do so. He has a website with 10-20 times the amount of traffic as mine, about similar to the Bogleheads forum (which has over a hundred threads started a day.)
He makes some money from it, but as near as I can tell, the site is dramatically “under-monetized.” I don't think he cares. He's already spending so much less than he earns, that he doesn't need a dime from the site. He's basically living on $25K a year and loving every minute of it.
The Financial Philosophies of Mr. Money Mustache
Here are the key points of his financial philosophy:
- Avoid waste. Everyone around you is wasting a ridiculously huge sum of money.
- Spend your money on what makes you happy and conversely, don't spend money on what doesn't make you any happier.
- Don't ruin the planet.
- Spending money on stuff that makes your life easier may be making you soft.
- Invest your money in simple investments like index funds and investment real estate.
- Your kids should learn to work hard.
What's not to like, right? Some call him extreme, but I don't find him all that extreme, to be honest. He is merely the Henry David Thoreau for our time. He's a fan of simple living in natural surroundings. A simple life with simple pleasures can be lived very inexpensively and with reasonable financial management, can be coupled with a ridiculously short career.
What I Don't Like About Philosophies of Mr. Money Mustache
Some of these criticisms aren't so much of Pete (because when you read carefully or meet him in person you realize he is a very reasonable person), but rather of those who buy into his philosophy as the solution to their woes. But here we go anyway.
# 1 Work Doesn't Have To Suck
I get this whole vibe from reading Pete's story and the stories of those on his site Mr. Money Mustache forum that they hate (or in many cases, hated) their jobs. Sermo (online physicians forum) feels the same way sometimes. Well, here's the deal. If your work sucks, the solution isn't necessarily to save some crazy percentage of your income so you can quit working ASAP. There is an alternative solution. Such as getting a job that doesn't suck.
There is a whole group of people out there who have found something they feel so passionately about that they would do it for free, or perhaps even pay for it. Sometimes the work is an unpaid or poorly paid pursuit. Other times it is very well paid. But that seems like a far better ideal to strive for to me.
For example, I followed a link to the blog of a young retired attorney who followed a similar path to early retirement as Mr. Money Mustache. Now he spends hours a day video-gaming. He blogs about how he isn't accomplishing anything or contributing anything to society. Is that really the point of good personal finance?
I remember the last time I didn't have a job (well, not including my deployment to Qatar where I only “worked” 24 of every 96 hours, worked out for 3 hours a day, and had someone who cooked, cleaned, and did my laundry.) It was the summer between the 1st and 2nd years of medical school. I had a military rotation right in the middle of it, so I had several weeks on either side of the rotation with little to do and not enough time to do any real research or get any real job. I went golfing every day (the university course sold me an unlimited three-month pass for $100 or so.) Then I played some video games. After a few weeks, I realized that if you do not have meaningful work, even leisure starts to feel like work.
Brigham Young characterized the ideal day as 8 hours of work, 8 hours of recreation, and 8 hours of sleep. I think there's a great deal of wisdom there. As doctors, we've all seen people who retired to a life of nothing but depression, deconditioning, and death. No sense in retiring until you have something meaningful to retire to.
# 2 Cheap Hobbies Are Not Always Just As Fun
Mr. Money Mustache frequently extols the virtues of a walk or bike ride in a blizzard, working in his woodshop, or brewing his own beer. He has trained himself to find great joy in these simple things. But some people simply find more happiness buying more expensive things and doing more expensive activities. If they can afford these items and experiences while still meeting financial goals that are very easily met from working at the high paying job that they enjoy, then I say more power to them.
For example, mountain biking on the trails behind my house is pretty fun. But mountain biking in Sedona, Fruita, and Moab on my new fancy mountain bike is REALLY fun, but 100 times as expensive. Is it 100 times more fun? Probably not. Can I afford it? Definitely. [One of my partners, who reads both MMM and WCI regularly says this, “I love MMM, but his bike sucks.”]
Surfing behind the fancy boat.
Going to Lake Powell in my 13-year-old, $6K, 135 HP boat is pretty fun too. But going in my new fancy 410 hp wakeboat is going to be a lot more fun, especially because I'll be able to take twice as many fun people.
Will it be ten times as much fun? Probably not. [Update prior to publication- It's at least 3 times as fun.] But I can afford it. I do lots of other fun stuff that costs money too — ice hockey, skiing, climbing, canyoneering, going on vacation every month, etc. I wish I could have just as much fun knitting as I do playing hockey. But guess what, I don't. And that's okay.
# 3 Doing Things The Hard Way Is Not Always Better
Mr. Money Mustache goes out of his way to make his life hard. For example, he takes his bike and bike trailer out in a blizzard to pick up 85 lbs of groceries just to say he did it rather than driving his car 1.5 miles (or just waiting until the blizzard is over.)
I grew up in Alaska. In Alaska, there are a lot of people who like to do things the hard way. They live in places that don't have roads to them, for example. They build their own cabins, chop their own wood for fuel, hunt their own food, and in general live completely off the grid. There are a lot of odd people out in “The Bush.”
Pete is way too social for that kind of existence. But if he were a bit more antisocial, he'd fit in just fine up there. Like this guy. Who decided to walk 50 miles in a single push. Between two roadless towns. At 33 below zero. Starting at 7 pm. With nothing but Jolly Ranchers. For no purpose whatsoever except to see if he could do it. Welcome to Alaska.
But here's the deal. Doing things the hard way takes more time and energy and planning (mental energy) that may be able to be used in a better way that will contribute more to your happiness, your relationships, and the community around you.
Instead of spending 2 hours on a grocery store run on your bike, perhaps you could run down and back in 30 minutes and spend an hour and a half volunteering at the school. Or playing with your kids. Or helping someone out on the internet. Or working out. Or doing a craniotomy on a 14 year with an astrocytoma.
Yes, taking the car will burn more gas, ruin the planet, and cost you more money. But there are more important things in life than a gallon of gas. Life is all about trade-offs like that. (Nevertheless, I was pretty impressed that he only spent $71 on gasoline in 2014.)
# 4 A Scarcity Mentality Can Hold You Back
Mustachians focus almost exclusively on cutting financial expenses. But in personal finance, sometimes it is easier to cut expenses and sometimes it is easier to boost income. If you focus too much on just expenses, you end up with a scarcity mentality. This is when you're focused on getting and keeping your piece of the pie, as opposed to an abundance mentality when you realize you have the ability to make the pie bigger.
For example, a doctor could paint his own house and save $2000. Or, he could take the 4 days he would spend doing that, go do some surgeries or see some patients and make $8000. Even after paying 45% of that income in taxes, he's still way ahead. Plus the paint probably looks better. Plus to me, seeing patients is more fun and contributes more to society than painting my house. There is plenty of waste in life, but sometimes wasted time is more expensive than wasted money, especially for a high earner. I think a lot of Mustachians (and even Bogleheads) don't get that.
Mr. Money Mustache Forum & Website
At any rate, I think everyone serious about their own personal finances should spend some time with the Mr. Money Mustache forum and website. While you may not agree with everything he writes, nor find yourself to be nearly as extreme, you will almost surely realize that you can be just as happy working less and spending less than you do now.
What do you think? Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Money Mustache? Do you think doctors should retire after 7 years if they don't like their jobs? Do you think doctors CAN retire after 7 years? Why or why not? Comment below!
We as physicians spent a very very long time to learn and be able to do what we do. There are very few people in the world who have this knowledge and expertise. To give it all up after just a few years of work seams to be a sad waste of time and knowledge. If I was getting burned out so much, I would just cut down how much I work.
I don’t plan on retiring early. But I do plan on semi-retiring early and cut down to 2 days of work a week. Just enough to still keep up skills over the years while not even coming close to getting burned out. Hopefully I will continue enjoying work well into my 60s.
The other factor many fail to consider is the risk of injury and loss of income doing things “the hard way.”
I like a to quote the fact that at any time there is at least one person admitted to our trauma hospital because they fell of a ladder. (I don’t really know this to be fact but I say it anyway).
Alex,
Not all specialties are set up to accommodate docs that simply decide to cut down to 2 days per week. I tried. Zero employers local to me were looking to hire part time surgeons. I could have gone private, but working 2 days a week would be the quickest way to go bankrupt. Next, the hospital owns all the local primary care docs, so all the referrals go to their employed surgeons. So, when I hit my FIRE number, and my side gig consistently generated more income than my surgical salary, I decided to turn in my scrubs. That was just over a year ago.
I completely get it. But there are some options. I have a buddy who works as a surgicalist. This options appears to be more and more common. Another option is to pay money to buy time. What I mean is hiring a PA or NP to assist you with the less enjoyable parts of work. Lastly, if working less is a priority, moving where you can find a job or partnership that fits your desire may be an option.
But yeah, your completely on point that not every speciality has this option.
Note that I am an engineer, not a doctor. I appreciate the “shockingly simple math behind early retirement”, but I am not nearly as frugal as MMM and his wife. I don’t see why I need to be. Money is meant to be spent in your lifetime (especially since I don’t plan on having children). I do agree with you that the solution to not liking your job is to find a new one. I doubt I would like not working for very long either, though I would like to take a month long trip once every year and a half, I think that would be ideal. Right now, my boyfriend and I happily live off of about 70-80% of our combined income, which is in the low multiple hundred thousand dollar range. If we weren’t happy with this spending level, we would spend more, but we are happy with it for now (somewhere around $60-70k/year for the two of us).
The other point of yours that I appreciated was that not spending money can make our lives harder. One of the things I most appreciate about having money is using it to make my life easier, meaning not needing to plan out nearly as many details and while traveling, being able to just eat that food we found instead of looking for cheaper food.
Correction: we save 70-80% of our combined income, not spend.
That’s pretty impressive. Given that I pay 22-23% of my income in taxes (and that’s much lower than many docs), that’s unfortunately impossible for me.
Typically when people say they save 70% of their income (for example) they mean 70% of their take home pay.
Also – saving and maxing out all of your available tax shelters is a great way to drive that tax rate down even further!
Yup, this. We pay about 25% in taxes combined and save about 70-80% of the remaining income, so of the gross: about 25% to taxes, 25% spending, and 50% saved. As a dual engineer couple, our income is similar to one medium to high doctor income.
50% is still pretty darn high. I haven’t done that very often. A couple of years though. You hit financial independence very quickly saving that much. Then what?
Then you’re free to ignore income as a factor in choosing how you spend your time, if you want. I’m looking forward to the day I can sustain my current lifestyle without needing to work in my current industry.
I don’t know. I asked him recently if he thought we should spend more money and he said “Why? We’re happy with the amount we’re spending.” We take an international trip every year, live in a nice, spacious condo in the city, and buy whatever we want almost whenever we want, yet we’re still only spending 20-30% of our net income. Things might change if we have kids?
Nice to have options, anyway. I agree that if additional spending is not going to bring you significant additional happiness, then you shouldn’t do it.
Not me. I take home all my pay. Then I pay taxes on it. So I find using my gross income as the denominator to be far more accurate. If you’re going to take your taxes out before doing the calculation, why not your charitable contributions too? Or your mortgage? Or your groceries? Or your utilities? I don’t see taxes as being any different than any of these other items. So I use gross.
Trust me when I say I’m aware that maxing out tax “shelters” lowers my tax rate significantly.
This is a very late reply to this post, but can you really brag on how sustainable such a tenuous “cohabitational relationship” really is. Sounds like shaky ground to me…as I’ve seen many a young lady grow old at the expense of a non-commital man…and be out on the streets by themselves when your man wants kids and you can’t. Just my two cents…
A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.
Do fish ride mountain bikes or road bikes?
I like Mr. Money Mustache. He represents one extreme end of the life spectrum, but for the average American I think it’s helpful to see an example of someone who lives a life that is so different from the expected norm; one who offers a counterbalance to the consumerism that is so pervasive in America.
My main takeaway from reading his articles is not to sell my car and ride a bike everywhere, but to spend my money wisely on things or experiences that legitimately add happiness to my life.
Even though I like Mr. Money Mustache, I don’t like most of the readers who comment on his blog. There’s a definite sheep mentality there with evidence of people who lack insight and independent thought; as if the solution to every problem is to simply sell your car and move closer to work.
The Mustachian way of life changed my finanical perspective. I was…eh,hem, AM, burned out 2/3 my way through a surgical residency. Sure, his perspective is extreme and nearly impossible for the vast majority of people, particularly high earning physicians.
With that said though, I am in a 2 physician income family and crunching the numbers, if I become a hyper-saver and save the $250k/year the first 7-10 years out, I will be at a point of finanical freedom that will afford me and my family the option to not have medicine be the primary source of income.
My goal is to do just that. Sure, I’m burned out because I’m in the midst of residency…but truely, I’m burned out for so many more reasons than this. Medicine is just not what I had hoped it was going to be. However, with ** years into training, $400K in debt, and mouths to feed, my options are limited. So what I am I going to do, I’m going to live and save like I am going to retire in 7-10 years out.
Will I? I don’t know– maybe as an attending I’ll discover joy in patient care again…but I do know, with MMM’s theology, I can always have that card in my back pocket.
I say go for it. Live like youre a resident! just don’t burn out on saving money too! give yourself a little raise. kill off the loans. pile away cash.
Hang in there TJ! It’s easy to get burned out during residency. I know I felt the same way. I’m only a year out of residency but I can’t tell you how much better life is on the other side. Having more time (balance) in your life can make a big difference as having control over your career and being able to decide what you want to do (work more and make more money, or work less . . . and still make a good bit of money). I’m not discouraging you from your current plan, I just want you to know the burn out can get better, and hopefully in a few years you’ll be able to find some satisfaction in what you do.
As a surgeon you won’t need 7-10 years to pay your debts. Live on 60K a year and you should be out in 3-4. Then buy the house.
I think MMM’s main focus is to reject consumerism as a source of happiness. Sometimes I do feel like his answer to every struggle is move to Colorado and ride your bike, but I think he genuinely wants to motivate people to push towards a happier, more sustainable life. He uses extreme examples to illustrate how any obstacle can be overcome by sheer stubbornness! He’s been a great role model for me in my formative post-grad years, as I no longer feel expected to compete with the (Dr.) Jones’ in my life. He excels at motivation and his lifestyle encourages us all to stop, examine the big picture and think about what we would like our end game to look like.
There is a difference between not working and not having to work. MMM’s philosophy is similar to the best-selling book 4-Hour Work Week, and I disagree with it completely. For me, many of my family members, and many of my friends, our careers are one of the great satisfactions in our life. We think interesting thoughts. We meet fascinating people. We give back to the world. And, we earn enough money to do other things we enjoy. We also earn enough money to support causes we believe in.
Pity the poor people who were raised with the attitude that work is bad. They will never give as much to the world as if they saw their work as ways to refresh themselves and give back to the world.
Former doc here, who stopped practicing not because I didn’t love it, but because I found more interesting things to do. Having been raised by depression-era parents, who taught me the pleasure of figuring things out for myself, working hard, and avoiding debt (i.e., most of what MMM preaches before there was a MMM) allowed me to transition to a completely unrelated career without missing a beat. I think you fundamentally misunderstand, and misrepresent, what MMM is about.
You infer that MM and MMMers hate(d) their jobs. Some do, some don’t. That’s not the point. MMM celebrates the joy of calling your own shots, and spending absolutely as much or as little time as you want with your family and your preferred activities. His message is, you can do it the conventional way (work hard for many years so you can afford to do what you want in your free time, which hopefully comes before you’re too old or preoccupied to enjoy it) or his way (step out of the consumerist mindset, achieve financial independence, and do what you want ALL the time). That’s a very different message than “jobs suck so deprive yourself so you don’t have to have a job.”
On point two, you celebrate expensive hobbies (or rather, making what should be cheap hobbies expensive!). Those exact same hobbies can be enjoyed at minimal cost. Seriously, I avoided road biking for years because my impression was that people like your snobby friends dominated the sport. I got into it because of my wife. Her road bike is a $5-6k top-of-the-line racing bike. From 1994. She got it for $800 even though it had just been upgraded with a $1200 wheel set, $200 seat, new bars and CF seat post and front fork. She’s now been riding it long enough that it’s a highly collectable bike. For her it’s just her ride, and she has no trouble dropping the bike dudes on their new and silly-expensive carbon fiber rides (which somehow all seem to weigh more than her bike, despite the insane expense). A friend rides a virtually new $4k tri-bike that he got in exchange for a few hours of consulting for a doctor friend who had it custom made, and then realized he really wasn’t a bicyclist. And frankly, friends who have recently gotten into bicycling clearly have as much enjoyment on their low-rent Jamis bikes as the prissy weight-wienies who feel the need to get new bikes every couple of years and who sit around laughing at MMM’s crummy ride.
It’s great that you love your boat. I love having friends who have boats myself. But hey, even if you’re happy to work a few extra nights of call to afford the ownership of a toy like a boat, a jet ski or whatever, know that some of us enjoy going to any lake or ocean we wish, anywhere in the world, and just renting the equipment for the time we use them. I’ll guarantee I’ve had just as much fun skiing, boating, scuba diving, jet skiing, and so on without ever owning the equipment I needed for those activities. My friends with boats are pretty much stuck going only to the nearest body of water, and not one of them has ever used their boat or jet ski as much as they thought they would. But they’re still stuck with the costs of storage, maintenance, depreciation, insurance, and on and on. It’s no wonder that the happiest day for most boat owners is the day they sell their boat.
And hockey is expensive? Really? My hockey playing friends are falling all over the ice at the thought of that. Maybe I’m just an outlier, since I’ve found other supposedly expensive hobbies like traveling, collecting art, or collecting advanced degrees to be easy to do, and just as fun, without throwing around big wads of cash.
I think you completely wiff on point 3. MMM’s point is that there is a deep pleasure in doing things yourself, by your own wits and motive power. Other commenters here have pointed this out, and they’re exactly right. MMM doesn’t advocate doing things you hate, or that there’s no point in wasting time doing. He advocates asking yourself if something is important enough in your life to be worth paying for (or rather, working so you can pay someone else to do them). And he advocates asking yourself if you’ve ever experienced the satisfaction of doing your own work. It’s a powerful, life-changing adjustment in perspective.
I’ve repaired and refinished furniture I’ve found out with the trash, when I could have easily bought new stuff. I enjoy doing it, and I now have a house full of beautiful, high quality furniture. And I get a genuine satisfaction in using these things. I also get a satisfaction knowing I can pull out by tool box and replace a faucet or drain, or figure out how to build a small cottage, or replace my car’s clutch or lower control arm. Yeah, I’ve saved many thousands of dollars doing this, but more than that I have the secure understanding that I can take care of my own ‘stuff’ and that I don’t need as much in savings to live well.
I’d rewrite point 4 to be, ‘for Mustachians one of the main focuses is not wasting money on things you don’t need or that don’t make you happier.” That’s very very different than a ‘scarcity mindset.’ Put more simply, a key element of Mustachianism is not embracing scarcity, or becoming a miser, but rejecting consumerism. It is very much an abundance mentality, but the abundance is in deciding what to do with one’s time when one can step off the treadmill.
The surgeon in your example has already spent many years of hardship to get to the point of casually paying a painter to paint. They’ve already worked for years at no pay or low pay so that now they can do a few extra surgeries to get that extra $8k. That surgeon has already practiced a form of stoicism, though from my experience it comes at the expense of one’s own family (I’m trying to think if I know any surgeons who haven’t divorced at least once, and who didn’t miss most of their children’s recitals and ball games). It’s a very distorted example, and you’re not accounting for any of the built in costs of that transaction. And you’re not getting the satisfaction that I mentioned above, that figuring out how to do something properly, and then doing it (which was probably my favorite part of med school and residency) is something one can experience again, simply by taking on a personal project by painting your own walls.
More amazingly, you state that the surgeon is wasting time when they’re not practicing medicine. Do you really mean that? Is that why you’re selfishly spending more time with your family, and less time with patients?
Have you been to the MMM forums? You really think most mustachians like their jobs? Let me quote from the thread there discussing this post:
Do those responses to what I wrote sound like they come from people who like their jobs? Who find fulfillment from their jobs? How about this one, on the front page of the forum:
I think there is ample evidence in the forum that a large percentage of mustachians, at least the vocal ones, barely tolerate their jobs.
At any rate, I’m not missing the point. The question is this: If you like your job, it provides real service to society, you make tons of money, you have enough money already that you are “MMM-FI,” what should you do with your time and money? Is it best to stuff as much money into investments as you can so you can be truly FI ASAP, or is it okay to spend some money on stuff that makes you happy? I’d argue that it’s reasonable to spend some money, especially if you’re already saving 20-30% of your gross income already. You may be missing the point about the entire post however, which was that WCI readers should spend a little time on the MMM site, especially those attendings who can’t figure out how to save 20% of their $300K income and those residents who are trying to find someone to lend them money above and beyond their $55K salary to fund their lifestyle. A couple other minor comments:
First, you seem to have completely missed the section where I summarized the MMM philosophy and instead zeroed in on a few very minor criticisms. Let me summarize it again:
Avoid waste. Everyone around you is wasting a ridiculously huge sum of money.
Spend your money on what makes you happy and conversely, don’t spend money on what doesn’t make you any happier.
Don’t ruin the planet.
Spending money on stuff that makes your life easier may be making you soft.
Invest your money in simple investments like index funds and investment real estate.
Your kids should learn to work hard.
Regarding renting a wake boat, please provide the name and location of a business in my state that rents a boat with a surfgate on it. I couldn’t find one either. In fact, rental boats are in general surprisingly difficult to find. I know of a place at Lake Powell where you can rent a crappy boat that doesn’t do what I want/need one to, yet costs nearly as much as a houseboat rental. That’s it. Nothing on any lake around here. Jet skis yes, wakeboats, no. Simply not available. I did find a place that does rent real wakeboats comparable to mine in some surrounding states for $2800-3800 per day. Yes, you read that right. $3K a day. I’ve now used mine 16 days so far this year. That’s $48K. At that price I’ll have paid for the boat in a few more weeks of use. Renting makes no sense with boats if you actually use the boat.
I agree that DIYing is fun and useful. I do lots of stuff DIY-style. But you know what, sometimes it doesn’t make sense to DIY. I don’t replace my own transmissions, for instance. It would take me months and it wouldn’t work right when I was done, but I can pay for a new tranny in a couple of days in the ER. But I do my own financial planning and investing. I find it easy and fun. I do my own yard work, I find it easy and fun. I don’t clean my own house though. I can get three awesome cleaning ladies in my house for two hours for what it takes me 20 minutes to earn. That’s a heckuva deal.
I agree that you shouldn’t waste money on things that don’t make you happier. I agree that’s different from a scarcity mindset. Unfortunately, some people develop a scarcity mindset.
I don’t see where I stated that a surgeon who is not practicing medicine is wasting time. I assume that’s what you think I meant to say when I wrote:
I think any reasonable person would agree those two statements aren’t equivalent. Thanks for stopping by. Glad you found something you liked more than medicine.
I actually don’t spend much time on the MMM forums, or any forums on blogs that I enjoy, so I probably haven’t read the complaints of the hard-core job haters. The quality of the comments on blogs are usually an order of magnitude less interesting or useful than the quality of the original post. I was responding to your statement that your impression is that Pete and most of the people in the blog’s stories hate or hated their jobs. The implication is that his advice is for job haters, not doctors who like their work. The job-hating part is simply not consistent with what I’ve read on MMM.
I’ll say it again, I take the key message of MMM as being that we all have the ability to take control of our lives and how we spend our time, and that the conventional wisdom that one needs to work till age 65 and then retire is for suckers. And that the consumerist impulse is toxic to true happiness. It’s a powerful message, and it upsets people who have committed to the conventional wisdom, and who are stuck in the mindset that they need to care what someone else will think of their bicycle.
Speaking of hating jobs, I can’t remember knowing a fellow doc who wanted their children to follow in their footsteps. When I meet doctors now, and they find out I left medicine and have had a thriving second career, I often hear how much they wish they could have done the same thing (as if it was someone easy for me and impossible for them). Does that fact that many doctors hate their jobs mean that your blog is bogus? (And by the way, I loved practicing medicine. I love the work I do now. I’m planning to transition to a third career soon where I’ll work for myself. And yet the MMM message resonates with me, and I follow much of it. The whole philosophy has nothing to do with hating one’s job.)
This seems to be your summary of what you really think is the MMM message: “Is it best to stuff as much money into investments as you can so you can be truly FI ASAP, or is it okay to spend some money on stuff that makes you happy?” This is a false choice, and a misrepresentation of the MMM message.
This is what I think you’ve missed: it’s NOT a choice between stuffing every penny into investments vs. buying stuff to make you happy. It’s about having the freedom and independence to live a fulfilled life. It involves an emotional freedom (essentially the stoic mindset) and financial freedom. MMM appears to be far, far happier than the majority of doctors I’ve known, but maybe that’s a front. What I am certain of is that the closer I get to following the unconventional, non-consumerist path, the happier I become. And all this comes without the slightest sense of deprivation or scarcity.
You’re arguing against a straw man here. MMM spends money on things he likes. I spend money on things I like. MMM does not espouse the severe, spartan, deprived life you portray him as espousing. Really, I think you’re being disingenuous on this point.
And yes, I saw your summary of the MMM philosophy. Good job, though it’s odd that you then spent the majority of your post undermining MMM. And I didn’t “zero in on a few minor points.” You numbered your primary critiques, 1-4. I referred to each of them, and where I thought you missed the point with the critique. Those four points were the bulk of your post. If they were minor points, then I think you need to adjust your writing style. 😉
I’m glad your boat ownership is working out well, and I understand your justification for buying it, and I don’t think even MMM would fault you for such a minor indulgence when it gives you so much pleasure. Your are, however, based on having known many boat owners, an exception.
You now know one doc who would be honored if his kids wanted to go into medicine. What a fantastic career! You can save lives, improve health, provide reassurance, earn a very stable, high salary, and enjoy the respect of much of society. While medicine might not be for everyone, when someone tells me medicine sucks it tells me more about them than about medicine. Does it have issues? Sure. Are you aware of a career that does not? I’m not, especially one that pays so well. I can come home from work and buy a car with my day’s earnings. Maybe not a very nice car, but a car nonetheless. You can buy a luxury car with a month’s earnings. In one month, I can earn more than I ever made in a year prior to my 30th birthday. Seems like pretty good compensation for doing pelvics and rectals, dealing with paperwork, telling a family their kid is dead, fending off drug seekers and other downsides of my work. I don’t buy this idea that there was some Golden Age of Medicine. It’s awfully nice right now.
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts.
Kevin, make that 2 docs who want their kid to go into medicine. I followed my dad into his practice 25 years ago, but what we’re doing now is 180 degrees from what he did in the 70’s and 80’s. And in 2025, when I’m slowing down, I’m sure it will be pretty different then, too. Technology changes. Facts do too (NEVER give beta blockers to a CHF patient?). What doesn’t change is that patients want to be treated with respect, they want a doctor who cares about them and is competent to restore them to the best health they can be.
My kid graduated Stanford as Phi Beta Kappa in medical ethics and health policy, aced the new MCAT (526—98th percentile), and my wife is first-generation Mexican, so kid gets to apply as a minority. I predict every school she applies to will drool. I doubt she’ll follow me into private practice as she is bored with my specialty and seems better suited for academia. And I couldn’t be prouder.
As for your take on MMM vs. WCI’s take, you are both right. I remember putting in a new garbage disposal 15 years ago. Took the whole weekend, I cut every knuckle on both hands, but that damned disposal kept working at least until we sold the house last year. I didn’t do it to save money; rather to prove to myself that even a lowly, non-interventional flea can break a sweat with manual labor. But I still pay someone else to cut my lawn, tend my garden, clean my house, maintain my pool, wash my car, etc. I’d rather be working at my practice, hanging out at the gym, or playing video games (sorry, WCI, but I just love Peggle).
I’d like my kids to go to medical school too!
I loved this article and I’d consider myself a Mustachian wanna-be, but I can’t commit to it 100% (I’m not biking in slush and getting up an hour earlier). Doctors and dentists are outliers. We spend so much time on specializing that we are strange. We are way behind on saving and have stupid amounts of debt, yet our earning potential is so high that “early retirement” doesn’t make sense, BUT the Mustachian principles do apply and “financial independence” is a worthy goal.
Live like a resident and get out of debt – secure financial freedom so when your hospital wants to make you an employee or partners go crazy and want to kick you out that you have options. Also – working more becomes less exciting and after a point 50% of every dollar goes to the tax man.
1. Work doesn’t have to suck – but let’s be honest it often does. I have a cake job as an orthodontist. I make more than most surgeons that can kill someone and my assistants do most of the manual labor. Noone ever died of a crooked tooth. I could probably work into my 70s BUT the stress of running a business and dealing with staff and parents just grinds on you. Like the book “Your Money or Your Life” – You are always trading your time for money. At some point time is more precious than money.
If you had 10 million in the bank would you be working the night shift and dealing with drug-seekers? There are only so many bikini inspectors and waterslide testers the world needs. The rest of us have to work and if we were financially independent a lot of us wouldn’t be selling our time for more money.
My idea is to gain financial freedom fast. 5 million in the bank and debt free. Then I will probably cut back hours and ramp up the luxury. I think MMM has alot of things right, but with doctors some of it needs to be adapted.
It irks me the way he writes about how every $1 saved today is magically going to become $10 in 20 years, etc. Otherwise he’s a fantastic writer and I really enjoy reading his posts.
Some of his advice isn’t really practical, but that’s OK. He’s already given me a lot to think about for my next car purchase, for instance.
I think MMM addresses Concern #3: Doing Things The Hard Way Is Not Always Better
Yes it’s harder – but ultimately it makes you happier?
Here: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/
Moving from the mental to the physical, Stoics actually enjoy experimenting with Voluntary Discomfort. As a contemporary Stoic, you might make a point of seeing how long you can leave the air conditioning off on a summer day, or try hiking in bare feet instead of shoes occasionally to feel the land and force your feet to adapt to tougher conditions than a moisture-wicking merino wool hiking sock. It sounds absurd by modern standards, until you realize that by doing this, you are actually broadening your comfort zone, even while you eliminate your fear of discomfort. Thanks to the practice above, you are now able to enjoy yourself in a much broader range of temperatures, and appreciate the comfort of shoes when you do have them. Meanwhile, a person with the extreme opposite philosophy might become irritated if he ever has to travel in less than a first-class airplane seat or stay in less than a five star hotel or drink sub-$500-per-bottle wine. By experimenting with voluntary discomfort, we learn to appreciate far more of our life, and can be content with a much simpler and more wholesome one.
“The more pleasures a man captures, the more masters he will have to serve”
Nature Itself told the Stoics what conditions they should learn to appreciate as humans – since they realized we are all in fact an integral part of Nature. In Mustachian terminology, all of these thoughts relating to adapting your comfort level to embrace Nature are collectively referred to as Badassity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4
I wonder what it is like to be married to a true Stoic?
I think this post is spot on…all the way to your observation that his blog is under-monetized–and MMM likely doesn’t give a hoot. MMM takes an extreme point of view, but particularly in his response to some of the comments you can also see that he’s also flexible and reasonable.
My wife and I retired early much earlier than normal retirement age, but nowhere near to MMM status. We lived a lifestyle below our earnings (corporate work) but again, nowhere near MMM levels. The result is a retirement that is quite comfortable–way above MMM status. (Not that he feels his lifestyle is uncomfortable.) The tradeoff in our case was working about 20 years longer than he did. I appreciate the fact that he sets an extreme perspective, but it’s also very easy to compromise his philosophy to fit your own lifestyles and goals.
Been waiting years for this post. Loved it. I read both blogs, although his is getting less and less as he only seems to post a few times a month now.
Bot WCI and MMM have great ideas and both will get you there. What I like about WCI , especially more the past 6 months or so since he is loosening the purse strings, is that he is very much about moderation. 8 hours work, 8 hours fun and 8 hours sleep, what could be more moderate than that! One the other hand MMM reminds me that I can ride my bike more, cut back on some things and makes me think about how much happiness something will actually bring me. For me, he helped me focus spending, especially while on vacation, to things that I’ll actually use/enjoy.
Like many who read both blogs, I plan on living like a resident a little longer than most to pad the retirement accounts, then winding down a little earlier, and finally “retiring” when I want. But, I won’t sacrifice fun in the meantime just to retire early. My kids are young and I want to enjoy that time, not work like a dog, then retire as soon as they graduate college!
Well said! Seems like WCI is mellowing a bit, more relatable and thus more relevant to me.
With regard to Mr. MMM’s earnings, I vaguely recall him taking a pledge some years ago to only reap the first $4000 in monthly earnings from his blog, and donate the remainder. Unfortunately googling just turned up this:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/21/i-just-gave-up-4000-per-month-to-keep-my-freedom-of-speech/
This is him turning down $4000 more per month for credit card referral links, so not quite the same. Perhaps I conflated these two stories. The brain is a mysterious black box after all.
It is also possible that he changed his mind and deleted the original blog post, pocketing more than he initially promised.
But who can say.
I love the article, but I have to disagree with one point. Namely that homebrewing counts as a “cheap” hobby. It might start out that way, but you’ll quickly want to upgrade to a kegging system, fancy brew rig and maybe even equipment to propogate your own yeast.
It’s quite easy to spend thousands on new gadgets and gear. Go browse the websites of some homebrewing retailers if you want proof.
I agree, not only do I keep buying stuff but when you think about it, the cost isn’t that much better. 12 pack of good beer runs you around $18 at most so it cost about $70-90 for an equal amount of beer that you can make. If you are using an extract kit you save maybe $40 bucks at best. All grain you are down to probably $20 and you aren’t counting equipment.
I am about to start on an extract witbeer with blackberry in the secondary. I’m in for $75 already…
Great article. Its like anything, take it all with a grain of salt. The intentions are solid, but can be misconstrued as inflexible.
Timely article Jim! As an avid reader of both blogs (from start to finish). I love how you have clearly articulated some of the things that “bothered” me about the MMM blog. To be fair, I love how he writes, find many of his articles useful and am actually trying to read more about the stoic way of life… I agree that the commentators on his blog can be a bit extreme and somewhat mindless and a bit of “you are American so you must be stupid” (I can say this as an immigrant myself that things are not that rosy in other parts of the world and am incredibly fortunate to be truly living the American Dream).
You did such a great job in pointing out the good parts of the MMM blog and the parts that don’t really apply to physicians and other late professional starters.
I do want to achieve FI as soon as possible and will be using a combination of WCI and MMM advice to get there, but I also will ALWAYS WORK – Taking care of patients will always bring meaning to my life!
Thank you again for this wonderful, well reasoned and thoughtful article.
I love MMM’s blog; I think that it’s primarily helpful for me now in residency when my income is much more similar to the majority of his readers as opposed to what it will be in a few years. Also love it because I love DIY and, honestly, my dream life involves being that person in Alaska building my own cabin…I do intend to reach financial independence as soon as possible so I can have my medical career on my terms: family time and the opportunity for international work that’s hard to get when almost maxing out a $400K salary. Although I doubt that the US healthcare market is going to change enough to drastically lower my income compared to today’s expectations, I want the peace of mind that a nice stash can give.
MMM is the shock and awe for most people. He cuts through the BS and shows you how bad the “norm” has become when it comes to certain financial decisions. And for that I think he is great. Having said that, I agree that not everyone needs to live up to his exact personal goals.
If you think MMM is frugal, you should check this guy out:
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-live-on-7000-per-year.html
Basically he lives on $7000/year somewhere in the Bay Area. If you read through some of his old articles and see some of the lifestyle choices he makes, it makes MMM seem downright extravagant. But overall, both have a similar philosophy.
I can see why you might feel as if his website is not set up to monetize the way it should. On the other hand, the advertisements on your page can boarder on obnoxious and distracting. There’s certainly a fine line to walk between the two.
I agree there is a fine line and I’m trying to live right on it. Hopefully you find the ads less obnoxious after the new site design.
Website revenue is highly correlated with traffic. I obviously publish what I make here. Given his traffic is 10-20 times mine, it shouldn’t be too hard for him to be making 5 times as much as I do which would put him at the point where he could pay for the rest of his life with 9 months of website revenue.
I too am an avid reader of both these blogs. I think all residents should read MMM! In residency, unless you are moonlighting, you cannot earn extra money, so you might as well paint that house on your day to night shift conversion day!
For me though, the MMM gold is that before I read his blog I was stuck in the mindset that everything will be so much better when I am making a big physician salary and that residency is financial purgatory! With the MMM philosophy, I consider myself to be pretty darn rich on the resident salary with extra cash to burn on some mind-blowingly ridiculous vacations. Part of this is I have dramatically reduced my fixed costs (food, utilities, insurance, etc) but it is also a matter of attitude. MMM might consider a 10 day trip to French Polynesia hedonistic but after working like a resident does the clear water makes you feel pretty good while sipping pineapple wine and looking at the most colorful fish in the world! 🙂 Also, I am paying for it with cash that other folks are using for their daily car commutes and expensive cell phone plans so I ultimately am still financially ahead of my peers yet much more happy because I am putting money in the place that brings the most value to me!
Perfect. Attitude adjustments go a long way. I agree that in many of my interactions with docs (today it was a doc several years out making $300K a year having trouble making ends meet) a different attitude toward spending would go a long, long way.
The distinction between MMM and Pete is very important. MMM retired at 30. Pete did not. MMM lives on $25k a year. Pete does not. Many people confuse between the two.
I think he would consider you part of the internet retirement police. 🙂
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/
Which he? MMM would. Pete would not. 🙂
Maybe I should watch the video you sent me. Obviously there is an internet persona there, but you seem to be suggesting it is far more of a front than I had thought.
Is there a link to the video? I’m always interested to see real life vs internet personalities.
[Edit: The link I posted was not a publicly available link, so I’ve removed it. Gotta pay to play that one. Sorry! Not my content to give away.]
Watched it, seemed like I thought he would be, maybe a little less macho that his picture. The best part was hearing about how to create a cult and seeing the stuff that transfers over to here. It was interesting, but I’m glad to be a White-Coatian…?
The problem that Mr. MMM has that Pete does not is that if there is a bout of serious financial adversity, Pete has the ability to recover and press on, maybe working for longer than he otherwise might want, in order to insure his long-term financial health. If someone saves like crazy and retires with enough to get by at 30, he is vulnerable to a financial shock that could cut his savings in half or more. Pete (as long as he can hold on to his job) has the ability to keep working and maybe even buy low and ride a recovery up, a strategy that Mr. MMM has removed himself from. IMHO, Mr. MMM is putting an inordinate amount of trust in our government, the Fed, Wall Street, the banking system, etc., to keep our economy running in a stable fashion for as long as his extended retirement is going to last.
I think you have it all wrong…alongside varied investments, he’s still able to make money when he wants. He would weather the storm of a financial shock better than most people would because he has learnt to live on less. For most, they would acquire debt…and with stupid interest rates at that. Actually, scratch that. They would fall further into debt because many already have heaps of debt. He would only have his savings cut in half or more. Stark difference, bud. He is also seemingly resourceful. He seems to be the kind of person who can do a plumbing job at his home or his rentals without outsourcing. Imagine being hit by a financial shock then having your plumbing go kapoot on you. Let’s pile on the debt…? His stoic nature would allow him to emerge like gold if there was a bout of serious financial adversity.
I *love* MMM. There are two major points that I see his “haters” misunderstanding.
1) “Retiring early” is just one possible outcome of the REAL goal : Financial Independence. “Retiring” doesn’t mean you become lazy, or even stop earning money. It means that other peoples’ money no longer dictates what you do with your time. You’re free to work on whatever you want.
2) Just like careers can evolve, or even change quickly, so can retirement. Many people seem stuck on the idea of retiring early and “being forced to do the same thing for the next 50 years.” What? Why? You can change what you do in retirement even more easily than you can in your career. Far too many people see retirement/working as binary, arbitrary, and mutually exclusive. It’s not, especially if you’re truly Financially Independent.
Reading MMM has vastly changed my outlook towards work; on a daily and career-length basis. I’ve never liked defining myself by the job I do. The values espoused by MMM showed me a path towards a life where I am more free to define myself by things other than my paycheck. Neither my wife or I will ever stop working or earning money in some form, but I do plan to “retire” before I’m 45. I will then lead a very diverse and ever changing life that is very not-boring or monotonous.
MMM has showed me some of the values needed to this, WCI has showed me many of the tools.
1) Sounds retirement policey. Technically I’m financially independent in a lot of ways. I’m financially independent from my parents. I’m financially independent from medicine. If I live a MMM-style existence, I’m financially independent from ever having to work again. But if I increase my living expenses, I’m no longer financially independent. I’d rather be free to do what I want with my time and money than have to limit spending in order to proclaim myself officially financially independent according to someone else’s definition.
uh, what I said is the exact opposite of ‘Internet Retirement Police’.
“But if I increase my living expenses, I’m no longer financially independent. I’d rather be free to do what I want with my time and money…” But, you already have decreased your living expenses. You don’t own a 600ft yacht, or a private jet, or an tropical island….you have already adjusted your living expenses to a level that you find prudent within your means. MMM is nothing else, he’s just preaching to people that generally don’t make physician-level incomes (since that’s already in the top 5% or less of the US population) and almost everyone on his forums don’t have jobs with physician-level satisfaction and interpersonal impact. We’re the lucky few,
A “MMM-style” existence does NOT have to mean scrimping everything and being extremely frugal. The root of what he’s preaching is to live way within your means as a way to be free from having to work. So, you’re already there because you make a ton of money.
I like what I do enough to do it for the amount of money I receive.
I have enough savings/investments/pension to cut back to .25FTE (which I did for 8 months), but I found an opportunity that involved teaching residents so I went back to work full-time. We save a significant amount of money every year, but we have always done that. Work is what it is. Sometimes it is hard. Sometimes it is rewarding beyond the paycheck.
So I’m a fan of MMM. My life already looked a lot like the one he advocates for, when I found his blog. I like his posts because I find they are a good refresher that I don’t need a lot of *things* to be happy. I’ve never gotten on board with the idea of early retirement though. I love my job and I love the way my life looks now that I’m out of residency. I’d say I wouldn’t do my job for free, but if I stopped working for pay I’d still volunteer in our local free psychiatry clinic, so I guess I would. I still want to be financially independent, but when I’m like 50. I like living a balanced life now that will allow me to meet that goal in the future.
I think it would be hard for most docs to retire after 7 years, what with med school debt and all. And if you went into medicine with that goal in mind, I would have to wonder why you chose to go into medicine at all . . . it seems there are much quicker ways to meet the goal than doing med school and residency. At the same time I know several women who either didn’t do a residency or who didn’t work after residency because they decided they wanted to stay home with their kids. And I guess that is a form of retirement (at least per MMM. I don’t know that stay at home parenting would be my idea of retirement though . . .) And it seems like that worked well for them.
So ultimately I like the idea of living a reasonable life that allows you to do what you want with it, and that that can take on many different forms.
I like WCI because it’s just more specific to the many weird financial things that docs have to deal with and I have found that SUPER helpful.