[Editor's Note: This is a guest post from a doc and regular reader who comments under the name “Arthur” but wishes to remain anonymous. “Arthur” is an MD/MBA who offered to write up his experiences obtaining the degree after a discussion in the comments section on an older post. Since that time this site has run another article (with another discussion) on MD/MBAs, but it was not written by an actual MD, so I thought this post would offer a much better perspective on the subject.We have no financial relationship.]
Some time ago, a discussion of physician MBAs cropped up in the comment section of a WCI post and there was interest in a guest post on the subject by somebody who had actually done it. I am now at the tail end of my MBA program and wanted to share my experience and what I learned from colleagues about pursuing advanced business education. I spent quite a bit of time talking to other physicians in different fields and practice environments who had done an MBA program before committing to my own. I wanted to make sure I understood my options and that the experience would be worthwhile. Much of this post is a consolidation of those conversations and the perspectives offered by my current classmates. By way of disclaimer, I would like to point out that I have been extremely satisfied with the mid-career, physician-oriented MBA program I am in, so this post will have a favorable bias toward this pathway.
Why Get an MD MBA?
If there is no “why” then there is no point in considering the other issues. Surprisingly, several of my classmates struggle to answer the question “what are you going to do with your MBA?” From my exposure to like-minded physicians at various meetings and conferences (statistically suitable for publication in the Journal of Anecdotal Medicine), I would suggest the following major categories as reasons for going down this path:
# 1 Finding an Entrepreneurial Pursuit or “Company Job” to Exit Clinical Practice
This is probably the most common scenario I see bandied about, particularly by those who haven’t “taken the plunge” and are still just dipping a toe in the water of low-commitment management conferences. This is probably something a fair number of physician MBAs do, but it is not something that the degree will supply to you on its own. The entrepreneurial path will require considerable investment of both time and money, even if you have a great idea. Just ask WCI how many hours of uncompensated work he did the first year of his blog. Likewise, the company job will require proving yourself in a leadership role just to get hired and a probable pay cut in the initial change, particularly if you are in a higher paying specialty. An unknown and unproven manager with an MBA is not going to be offered a $400,000 per year job just because they also have an MD. If you want to get out of clinical medicine through this path, you’re going to need to have a specific plan or be prepared to wait a while to identify an opportunity. An alternative would be to ease into it by developing consultancy work on the side, but don’t underestimate the amount of travel away from your family that this will require and consider whether this really serves to give you the lifestyle change you wanted in the first place.
# 2 Maintaining an Independent Practice
In this era of corporate medicine and hospital-owned practices, some physicians still want the freedom of running their own shop and recognize that they need some heavy-duty managerial training to compete. I recall speaking to one doctor who said that his group of hospital-based physician had been whittled down from five facilities of coverage to one and he saw his MBA program as a necessary (but perhaps too late) effort to turn the tide. Interestingly, if you are already in a management position in your group or run your own business, an MBA program could potentially be partially or fully paid for through your company or deducted on Schedule C. The requirement here is that it “maintains or improves skills needed in your present work” (IRS publication 970, Chapter 12), so you’re probably out of luck if you’re not already in a clearly defined managerial role prior to starting. There are some fine lines on this which should be discussed with an accountant or tax attorney prior to proceeding – this article from the Journal of Accountancy will help start the conversation.
# 3 Advancing Inside Corporate Medicine
Say you’ve given up on independent practice but realize that employed physicians don’t have the same income, control, or job security. Why not move up the ladder to management? If you’re a standout low-level manager/medical director, an MBA will give you the credibility with the higher-ups at Consolidated Megamed, Inc., to get that VP spot which will open the door to further promotion or lateral transfer to a competitor.
# 4 Love of Learning/New Challenge
For some, the attainment of new knowledge is an end unto itself. If you’re already financially independent and want a better understanding of the business world, an MBA will certainly be enriching. Probably best to delay though if you still lack significant financial freedom.
# 5 Enhancement of Personal Financial Management
This, in my opinion, is a really bad reason to go to business school. Some people are under the impression that an MBA will give you the tools to be a day trader or otherwise solve your personal financial issues. While financial analysis is certainly a part of the curriculum, it’s not terribly applicable to personal finance and degree programs that are will cover far more than you need for your personal financial situation. You are probably far better served spending a few weekends going through the WCI archives and recommended reading list.
When To Do It?
In the discussion that led to this post, several commenters remarked on the timing of the MBA with respect to the MD. I’ve met people who have done it at almost all life stages and will discuss the merits of each below, in chronological order. I’ve excluded a discussion of getting the MBA well before the MD since I’ve only known one person who left the business world for a “second act” in medicine (though I know several lawyers who have) and I don’t think it’s a situation that occurs deliberately from the outset. Aside from that, most readers of this blog have already made a commitment to medicine.
# 1 Both Degrees At The Same Time
Whether it is a formally concurrent MD/MBA program or merely two separate programs in immediate succession, this option lumps all of the school time together. Typically, it will tack an extra year onto medical school, sometimes two years if the programs are separate. The biggest advantages to this path are that you don’t have to go back to school later and when you’re in the program you can devote your full attention to it rather than juggling it with work. If paying for your education with loans, however, this will add to your debt burden before you really know if you’re going to use both degrees. Also, most business schools prefer that MBA candidates have at least some work experience so that they can appreciate the applied aspect of the coursework. If you plan on using your MBA within the healthcare industry, then healthcare work experience would be very useful prior to the program. For these reasons, I don’t think that the typical direct-from-college-to-med-school student will get the full benefit of a dual degree program. It may, however, be suited to a nontraditional student with healthcare experience, like a pharmacist or nurse, making the transition.
# 2 MBA During Residency
Some programs will allow students to pursue other graduate degree programs during residency, particularly at their affiliated university. In my admittedly biased opinion, this is probably the worst timing for an MBA. It has similar drawbacks to a dual degree program, but will also lengthen your residency and/or distract you from it. This is the time you should be laser focused on learning the skills of your specialty, much more so than medical school. Having completed another master’s during medical school, I feel I have some perspective on the subject and think that a sideline degree program during residency would have been far more detrimental to my training.
# 3 MBA in Mid-Career
If you’ve been paying attention, this is obviously the path that I recommend. Once you’ve been an attending for a while, you should have much more familiarity with the business issues and politics of medical practice and can thus understand the applicability of the coursework in far greater depth. The disadvantage is that it will be very difficult, if not impossible, for most doctors to leave practice and return to school, so juggling work with an executive or on-line MBA program will likely be the only viable option. It can be done – I’ve been doing it for 18 months now, as have my classmates. It will be particularly hard for your family though and that’s why I recommend discussing it with your spouse early in the planning stage so that there is a mutual understanding of the purpose for your family and of the commitment needed for the undertaking. I spoke to my wife about it before I ever brought it up with my partners and I strongly recommend that you do the same.
# 4 MBA in Late-Career
This is probably the easiest time to pursue an MBA, but it is also probably not very useful. The late-career MBA student has often reached financial independence, has grown kids, and plateaued or even begun winding down their career. They also have a tremendous depth of experience for conceptual application of the coursework. While a few may use it to a limited extent to advance an agenda with a hospital board or start a new venture now that they are not financially dependent on their practice, I think most do it for personal enrichment and a desire to better understand the system they’ve been a part of for so long.
What Type of Program?
Once you decide to advance your education in business, there are a few options available to you. First though, I’d like to take a moment to mention the non-MBA options like a Master’s in Healthcare Administration or a Master’s in Medical Management. For those interested in applying the coursework within a medical practice, these may be great options and are often available in the formats discussed below. In fact, I tend to see the MHA on hospital administrators’ walls more often than the MBA. Depending on proximity and cost, it may be quite advantageous to pursue an alternate degree. As you move further from healthcare or higher up the corporate ladder, however, I don’t think that these degrees always have the same gravitas as an MBA. It’s sort of like being a DO: they learn and do all of the same stuff as an MD, but they still get the occasional sideways glance from interviewers or patients due to the less familiar letters after their name. It may be unfair, but DO/MHA just doesn’t have the same ring to it as MD/MBA. By the way, most schools don’t specify the educational path you chose to get your degree, if you’re worried about that. Your transcript and diploma will just say “Master of Business Administration” regardless of how you got there.
# 1 Traditional MBA
You go to school (physically present) for two years (often less in a combined program) and come out with a degree. While these programs often allow and encourage work and internships in parallel with the classwork, it would be difficult for most doctors to keep up a reasonable practice during the school year. This is particularly true if their practice is not co-located with the school. The biggest advantage to the traditional program is the contact time with professors and classmates. Easy access to professors can make a huge difference in difficult courses, while strong class ties can really pay-off in terms of a leveragable network after graduation.
# 2 On-line MBA
This is just a traditional MBA program done through an online portal. Having had a purely on-line course during my own program, I don’t think these types of courses establish enough of a connection with the professor and among the classmates to get an interactive benefit from the more managerial courses. You also don’t get the same networking benefit as a program with an in-person component. That said, if your interest lies more with technical side of finance, doing a program like this through one of your state schools is probably the most cost-effective way to cover the material. I’ve calculated an in-state option for me that was just $13k. Usually, there is also considerable flexibility in the pace at which you complete the program.
# 3 Executive MBA
These programs combine short on-site sessions with on-line platforms to try to allow people the benefit of personal interaction with the convenience of on-line learning. The on-site component is varied and ranges from every Saturday to every other weekend to a week or so each semester. Obviously, geography will play a role in which program’s schedule will work for you. These are generally more expensive programs than the previous two options and many state schools do not offer an in-state discount on the tuition. State programs I’ve looked at start at around $60,000 while Ivy League programs approach $200,000 (meals and lodging are usually included). Generally, I don’t think the Ivy-level programs are worth it unless you have a very specific goal, like being the biotech guy at a hedge fund or venture capital firm. In this case, accessing the school’s alumni network may be worth the price. These programs generally run a set amount of time (1-3 years) and have very little flexibility in their curricula.
# 4 Healthcare-Focused Executive MBA
I spoke to a physician from the bay-area who did an Executive MBA program with a very prestigious business school and hated it because his class was composed primarily of Silicon Valley types and much of the case discussion centered on venture capital funding and taking start-ups to acquisition or IPO. If you’re looking to move into that world, such a program may be appropriate. I will also say that some MD/MBAs I’ve spoken with tout the benefits of diverse business perspectives among their classmates in non-healthcare focused programs. For those wishing to stay in the broader healthcare industry, however, it may be better to enroll in a program with a healthcare concentration or at least a more diverse student body.
# 5 Physician Executive MBA
This is a special flavor of executive MBA program which is basically a healthcare focused program where admission is limited exclusively to physicians. There are only a couple of dozen programs out there like this and the benefits come primarily from the laser focus on physician-executive issues and the camaraderie of a being in a small class of like-minded doctors. The on-site component also tends to be more compatible with physician schedules. An ancillary benefit is that some of these programs will not require you to take the GMAT, since they know you’re probably already pretty good at standardized tests. The criticism of these programs is that you lack exposure to outside perspectives.
My Experience
I have avoided mentioning programs by name since most of my knowledge of these programs is second-hand, however I do feel it would be helpful for some people if I take a moment to discuss my own program, how I chose it, and what my experience has been. I am about ten years out from my residency and doing the Physician Executive MBA program at Auburn University in Alabama. It is a two-year program that has five on-site sessions and two field trips (a Washington trip as part of the health policy class and an international trip as part of the comparative healthcare systems class). In my particular practice, taking frequent long-weekends is not feasible, so being able to coordinate the residency sessions with a week off had huge appeal for me. The cost is in the $60k range, which includes lodging and most meals at Auburn, as well as a travel allowance for the field trips. I chose a physician program because I intend to stay in healthcare and wanted that to be the focus of the program. I also feel that interactions among my classmates have been much more frank and open due to our shared background in medicine. While geography made Auburn particularly appealing to me, I have classmates from as far away as Arizona, Wisconsin, and New Hampshire who have found the longer but less frequent in-person sessions very manageable from a travel standpoint. I pursued this path because I am part of an independent practice that I would like to keep independent. Now 80% of the way through it, I think it was worth the investment to further that goal.
What do you think? Have you done an MBA? What type? Was it worth it? Have you considered doing one? Why or why not? Comment below!
Really fantastic post. Thanks for your insight!
I likewise chose Auburn PEMBA program and graduated in the 2003 class, so I am out now 12+ years and in review would say that it was was every penny in the learning and application over these years
I was older when I joined the program at age 54 and was driven to this advanced knowledge level as I was working for a large national healthcare company and wanted to advance to a higher level and could only see this through a advanced business degree. As we know Medicine is now Business and thus a must to further your knowledge base if you are seeking to be either full or part-time in administration
Upon completion of my degree I was immediately elevated to an executive level position part time and at a salary that paid for my education in the first year; not to mention a tax deduction for advanced applicable education
As mentioned in this article there are many other reasons to seek an MBA and each unto his own; but one thing I will never regret is going to Auburn
What a program and what a faculty
While there I was Dx with a spinal tumor and had to have neurosurgery which put me on my back for about 8 week causing me to get somewhat behind in my course work
This faculty worked with me one on one with daily and sometimes nightly phone calls to get me back on track and assist my progression; without which I would have had to drop out and restart a new semester. They were wonderful to go out of there way to insure my success
Excellent post outlining the systematic thought process.
I’m an FP currently finishing up an online MBA, with hopes to move into the medical management side and start to step away from clinical medicine. I have found very few resources available on the internet for this type of path. Are there any that you can recommend?
I have put off getting an MBA for the simple reason that having the ability to get things accomplished at your institution will move you up the ladder faster than getting a degree. There is nothing stopping you right now from fixing one of those headaches you have at work.
I have seen some physicians go and get an MBA and do absolutely nothing with it, while others become medical directors and other non-clinical administration careers without an MBA. I believe it is entirely up to the person, not the degree.
That being said, with the growth of medical institutions. I have started to observe that if you want to move into the C-suite level, the MBA is probably worth pursuing. If that is one of your goals, then you could justify the price of admission and more student loans!!
Highly reccomend you read at least the first few chapters of the book “The Personal MBA” before pursuing one as he goes into much greater depth on this subject
I pursued a Physician Executive MBA in late career, with the final year’s coursework in with the genaral MBA students. It was very enriching personally and academically. I plan on using the experience as I go into my second act being part of a new business enterprise.
I left medicine in 2001 because of severe burnout, and then studied accounting and finance in bookstores for two years. This led to a job as a healthcare equity analyst. While working as an analyst I earned the CFA designation before applying to business school.
My alma mater was ranked #1 in the world by The Economist while I was there, but it did not require me to take the GMAT. The admissions department accepted my MCAT scores. Most schools require the GMAT.
The CFA curriculum is broad and the exams are about as difficult as the IM or CV ABIM exams, but I learned much more in business school.
Different schools have different strengths, so if you are interested in finance, investment banking, or investment management you will be better off at Booth or Wharton or NYU. Kellogg has a strong reputation in marketing. Stanford will probably be better than Harvard if you want to work in VC.
One of my classmates was a cardiac surgeon who left medicine to move into consulting. Another was a young internist who hoped to launch an entrepreneurial venture.
If you want to leave medicine but aren’t sure what else you can do, then business school is valuable. You’ll learn about many career options you weren’t aware of, and your school will help you find a job.
Go to the best school that will accept you. This will make a big difference in your job opportunities upon graduation.
If I could take a mulligan, I would enter B-school immediately upon leaving medicine.
Thanks a ton for taking the time to contribute this well-written article. If you were to combine it with a look back in 5-10 years, I think it would be a true classic.
I like the idea of more business education and I think I’d get a kick out of the classes, but ultimately, I can’t really see myself doing a career change nor being a bureaucrat doctor, so it might be more cost efficient to heat my house with stacks of $100 bills.
Great idea… 2, 5, and 10 year follow ups would be truly informative, especially for young attendings or those still in medical school or residency
I can certainly do a follow up post in a couple of years. I expect to stay in touch with most of my classmates, so perhaps I can share their post-graduate experiences as well for a little diversity.
Great!
Hey, checking in on this. Has it been done??
I just completed the Master of Medical
Management, MMM degree at Carnegie Mellon University and can say it was one the best things I could have done. I’m 15 years into my practice and feel I’m ready to move into another area. I have done many medical staff leadership positions and felt that I really couldn’t go higher without an advanced degree.
I am now working with an executive coach to really determine what area I should focus on.
I feel like I really gained significant insight into not only business but other dimensions of leadership that will be invaluable going forward.
Are evening/weekend options included in the category of traditional MBA programs. I am currently in the evening program at Chicago Booth and would recommend this over an executive MBA since you are able to pick your own classes and tailor the program to your needs (calendar) and interests; which executive MBAs have less flexibility since you move through the program as a cohort.
I have met physicians working full time and in the evening program as well as a resident (in derm) in the fulltime program.
One thing to also consider is the fact that most MBA programs are roughly the same price ($110k to $130K), but the post-MBA wage premium is highest from the top 10 programs. An MD/MBA may not face this issue if they wanted to stay in the medical field, but if you are considering quitting medicine and starting a new career it makes sense to go to the best school you can.
I didn’t consider the issue of a local part-time program, but it sounds like this could be an important option for some people. Thanks for bringing it up.
I do take issue, however, with your statement that “most MBA programs are roughly the same price.” I’ve found an almost twenty-fold difference in cost, depending on the type of program, as discussed in the “What type of program” section. Also discussed was the fact that a “top 10” program may not be appropriate, depending on your goals. I am acquainted with somebody who did one of these programs in the Bay Area and hated it because the curriculum was geared toward Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, which was not his desired career path.
Careful with the wage premium statistics. Even for some of the “better” MBA programs they don’t end up being a NPV positive decision. And that’s using inflated post-MBA wage statistics. Data schools put out on wage increases are very misleading and meant to make them look better. They are incentivized to based on MBA rankings. I know plenty of MBAs, like JDs, who do nothing with their degree and can’t claim that it offered them any benefit. But they had to forgo 2 years of earnings with >$100K in debt. The MBA is becoming the new JD in that regard IMO. If you’re going to pay for it with a full time commitment and/or are willing to pay >$100k for that education you should be damn sure that it’s worth it – and make sure the curriculum fits your needs like Arthur stated.
I’ve spent most of my career in academic surgery, and I completed a Healthcare Management MBA in 2015 at my own institution. The decision to stay at home was easy. It was mostly on-line, with face-to-face meetings about every 10 weekends. Employees received a tuition discount and I received an additional scholarship from my medical school. However, the coursework was still very time intensive. 72 units over 3 years meant 2-3 classes at a time, tons of reading and writing, sometimes staying up until 2 am to finish a paper, presentation, or capstone project. Going away for an MBA was not an option, with a doctor spouse and 3 adolescent and young adult children.
Nice review of this important topic.
I went through a MBA program at mid-career. I went to a top tier competitive traditional MBA. It was a lot harder than I thought. Since it was evenings only it took 3 years and was one of the most rigorous options. About 1/2 way through I considered dropping out but felt I was too far along. I’m glad I stayed in. It open up an opportunity to create a medical clinic for a network that I would not have gotten without the degree. It helps me think like and speak to the medical administrators in their language. I’m better at managing my office (leadership, financials, process improvements, etc.). I’m also better with negotiations and my personal financial planning and investing.
MBA isn’t a route I recommend for everyone. But if you are interested in business or management and want to do something a little different from the typical doctor route, it is a good option that opens up doors as well as your mind to new ways of thinking.
I got out of the military and had some post-911 GI Bill money to spend (as I had not been in long enough to transfer it to family without incurring additional obligation). I did an online MBA in Healthcare Administration through WGU (Western Governor’s University). You can do the MBA as fast or as slow as you want. I did it over 2 years which was a nice moderate pace (and since I used the GI Bill, I was getting paid over $700 per month as a “housing allowance” tax free for going to school . . . ). You pay for the time you are in the program – $3250 per 6 months — so taking it casually over 2 years it would cost $13,000.
I would say this program would work out well for anyone wanting to go into a more administrative job at their current hospital or to branch out into administration at another hospital. In these types of jobs, I don’t think where your MBA is from is as important . . .
How did you like the program? I am looking into this for the future as I have an Americorps scholarship to this school. What were the pros/cons? Any suggestions and please tell me there wasn’t busy work.
Overall it was a good program. There were healthcare specific classes and there were core business classes that other MBA students were in. I liked it in that I could work at my own pace – when I had time to get a whole bunch done, I could. If you already know a lot about a subject, you can go through it quickly. I liked that there were not many group projects that you had to rely on other classmates to get things done (only 1 or 2 as I recall, not too onerous). You do have to check in with your “mentor” periodically — that’s kind of how they take “attendance,” but they were quick phone calls unless you had questions. Most of the classes have message boards and forums that are very helpful. There really isn’t busy work. You turn in 2-4 assignments per class and no tests at the end — really fairly easy to do, but does take some time.
Another advantage of getting an advanced business degree is facilitating the transition out of physically demanding or call intensive fields into something with potentially better hours, especially as we get older. I work with a vascular surgeon who got his MHA at age 55 and then transitioned into a chief medical officer position. He shared with me that he wanted to still have a meaningful job for the next 10 years, but with the nights/weekends along with intensity of cases, he felt he needed something other than clinical work to have this. I personally want to be able to cut back if it’s me in this situation, but I understand that some will have the want/need to continue working and day hours may be attractive.
Great point. This is one of the reasons why I got my MBA – insurance. I had already planned on shifting more of my responsibilities to admin over the years, but it’s nice to know that should I be completely disinterested in the clinical side that I could transition earlier. Good insurance for many things that might affect one’s ability to operate as well.
I’m roughly half way through an online MBA from a respectable state school. I’m a PGY-3 in Pediatrics and wanted to take advantage of the tuition benefit offered to us (the residency program is within the same university system), this will cover about 40% of the total cost for all credits. As well, I have a total of 5 years to finish the program so I don’t have to worry about my clinical training being extended. Although the majority of my free time goes to this endeavor – I am in fact enjoying it quite a bit. My career goals definitely have more of an administrative focus to them and I envision an office in a hospital C-suite one day.
Very smart. This would have been very difficult to do as a resident, but if your free time affords it without affecting your clinical acumen I see this as a very positive decision – especially if you’re goals are more administrative. You’re adding an important skill set, enjoying it, and doing it in a very financially and time-efficient manner.
The post by “Arthur” is a great review of the MD/MBA landscape. I have a bit of a different perspective but agree with the points that were made. I was able to get my MBA while in Med School. I went to UT Southwestern and they started an MD/MBA program while I was there with UT Dallas. They didn’t make me take the GMAT and just used my MCAT scores. They also provided financial assistance so the tuition cost was only about $3000 for the entire “extra” degree. I was able to get the MBA in 16 months but I had to go full time to business school between 3rd and 4th year. So, I took a year “off” between 3rd and 4th year and was enrolled in their traditional cohort MBA program. I was able to finish the MBA during the first 4 months of 4th year and then graduated in December from UT Dallas and then the following June from UTSW.
Since I was in the cohort program, I received the same education and training as others who were non-medical. I took finance and marketing like everyone else and then had a few electives in healthcare topics. Now, there is a whole healthcare emphasis available. I found the MBA helpful in a variety of ways:
1. It taught me how to think like an administrator instead of a physician in certain situations. When I felt that the residents were getting the shaft on some issue or had frustrations with the EHR, I was able to look at the problem from non-clinical eyes. I was also able to speak with administrators on some of their terms, such as quality, finance, and the importance of taking care of our customers/patients.
2. Your MBA network is key. I did not take advantage of this enough while in the program because there were not any other people in healthcare. Now that the program is more established, there are probably more contacts to make. Any MBA program must have robust networking opportunities and one should attempt to use those contacts to accomplish your goals. (It is a fine line though. No one should feel “used” just because they are a part of an alumni network. So, networking is a balancing act).
3. Most MBA programs will probably give you the basics but it does matter where you go. In fact, I think that it matters more where you go for business school than med school. Because MBA programs can be completed online, they have lost some of their luster. However, if you have an MBA from a top-50 program then that carries a little more weight. Also, your networking opportunities are better.
I don’t have any experience from a physician-oriented program. I would have liked a little more healthcare slant but that wasn’t available when I completed the program. Overall, I believe that it helped me learn how to look at a balance sheet, strategize against competitors, problem-solve with administrators and look at healthcare from a non-clinical perspective. I think that it directly helped me become a chief resident and then a division head within 2 years of fellowship completion. An MBA is not for everyone, just as administration is not for everyone. However, if you need more experience in the business world, and can’t get on the job training, then an MBA may be for you.
3k? Thats an amazing bargain no matter how you look at it. I would pay 3k in a heartbeat, but much harder while in practice.
I would love to do an MBA for the learning aspect itself, likely traditional/finance focused. I have no idea if I would ever “use” it, so it makes no sense to pay for one right now. Wish I had taken the dual degree program offered at our med school, I think it was only an extra year (maybe two?). Really got along well with those that did, and might have done something different altogether at the time.
Interestingly. I got an MBA from the same Auburn program. I did it mid to late career at age 47. I thought the program was great. It really was a good mix of online work and on campus learning. I think challenging yourself mid career is a great thing to do. Improving your accounting and finance knowledge is always good for your business. I think anyone who owns a practice will likely find the coursework useful.
For military docs (and Coast Guard) who may be reading from any of the services, there is a great option that is not widely publicized. You can attend the Baylor MBA/MHA program through the AMEDD Center and School. Your degrees are from Baylor, which is highly ranked. The core degree is the MHA, the MBA is optional and takes a lot of work. One of the huge benefits is that you get paid your salary and any bonuses you are eligible for two years to finish the degrees, one year in San Antonio for heavy classroom work, second year a residency year that does not have to be in San Antonio. For most other doctors who get the degrees after medical school, it is on top of a full time job.
I completed the program in 2009, then sat for the exam to become a Fellow of the American College of Healthcare Executives. That has offered many venues, DC having one of the best chapters, to network and learn from others working on the “dark side” (admin) of medicine. The degrees definitely have helped me as I served as a Medical Director for one large clinic, as a Primary Care Department Chief with 8 clinics and approx 800 staff, and now Commander (CEO) of a small hospital for the Army. There are definitely differences in military medicine, but on the admin side, there are actually more similar challenges than differences.
I agree. Admin in the military was pretty good prep for admin in the civilian world. I kind of hate it in both places though to be honest!
Someone told me awhile ago, you can help steer the ship, or you can be along for the ride, but then don’t complain what direction the ship is going in if you are along for the ride. I guess I am practicing some of the goals I had going into primary care, being the detective to figure out what is ailing someone and how to help them. But working on the admin side, I get to figure out problems to let 450 staff focus on providing care to the population we serve. As a primary care doc, I was helping 20-30 people a day, as a small hospital CEO, it is more like 300 people a day. This all said, if you told me I would be doing this when I graduated from medical school, I would have told you that you are nuts.
Oh I’m not saying it isn’t important nor that it can’t make a big difference to be an administrator. I’m saying I didn’t enjoy it as much as clinical medicine.
I will give a counterpoint against the MBA. We as physicians have an excellent income. We also used up a very large part of our life learning to practice medicine. Why spend more time in school instead of enjoying life? Even if you do make more money, what good is that extra cash if all you do is work? Why not just live below your means and spend more time with your friends and family? Getting an MBA is a very expensive and time consuming process which may not buy you any more happiness.
The only ways I can consider getting an MBA worth it is if you are already financially independent and just want to learn more. The other is if you are so burned out from clinical work but not close to financial independence and need to find another source of income.
I agree with the importance of work-life balance and certainly would not advocate this path for all physicians. I do contend, however, that most practices need one or two doctors with the interest and aptitude to pursue some level of management training. I also contend, as I did with my own group when I began this, that it is in the group’s collective interest to support this type of training so that it is not an undue burden for those willing to do it.
In the political tug-of-war between cost, quality, and accessibility, the business of medicine will be constantly changing in the future. Management-trained physicians will be needed to appropriately position their group on the changing healthcare landscape. Groups that neglect this will quickly find themselves out-maneuvered and no longer able to earn the “excellent income” to which they have become accustomed. At the group level, this is about protecting your position. As the modern proverb goes, “if you don’t have a seat at the table, you’re probably on the menu.”
I can’t argue with you that we physicians need to understand the business side of medicine and an MBA can provide that education. I could also argue that you don’t need the degree to get that education. There are plenty of opportunities and less costly options available. I also see a decent number of physicians in leadership type roles without holding an MBA. Don’t get me wrong, an MBA can help, but it is not 100% necessary.
I believe the table starts at the political level. Physicians give money to our medical associations to lobby for us on our behalf. Unfortunately those associations continue to not represent us like they should. Large insurance companies have far more leverage than we do and since we are unable to strike we have very little bargaining power.
EnjoyIt, I agree that the table starts at the political level and, fortunately, my particular specialty society does a good job advocating appropriately. This why I aggressively support them and perennially push my colleagues to invest more along with me (I don’t think of it as a “donation” since I expect to see a return on it).
Your point about some of these organizations failing the constituencies is well taken. Many of them act in ways that are poorly aligned with the concerns of their members, if they act at all. While it is hard to jump in at the national level, many state societies can be steered by a small group of motivated physicians and this can lead to national impact. If you’re dissatisfied with your representation, consider getting involved.
Oh, and I agree that the MBA, specifically, is not necessary. It just happened to suit my needs quite nicely. As is often quoted on this site, “there are many roads to Dublin.”
Absolutely agree. As docs we often cheap out and don’t pay our colleagues what we should for their admin duties.
Fantastic guest post. The bar of entry for future guest-posters has been raised.
We’ve had some pretty great ones this year haven’t we. I agree the bar continually goes up. Pretty soon people are going to tell me to quit writing and just do 3 guest posts a week!
This guest post provides a great analysis of the MBA decision tree, and rings true to my experience. I undertook a part time MBA starting in my fourth year of private practice out of Fellowship. Was tremendously valuable for me, as I had no prior business training and wanted to better understand my private practice as well as be more effective in my interactions with hospital administrators. The MBA accomplished those goals for me.
Rather than repeat many of the guest columnist’s lucid observations, I want to expand on point #5 in the article, that the MBA is not really useful for building skills relevant “Enhancement of Personal Financial Management.”
Like the WCI himself, I have long been interested in topics related to personal financial management, to the extent that I studied for and passed the actual CFP certification exam in 2008. Then, after my MBA, I earned an MS degree in Personal Financial Planning from the College for Financial Planning in Colorado. Because of those experiences, I can confirm that the subject matter, student body, and professional cultures in each domain are very different. I wholeheartedly agree with point #5 in the article.
The good news for all of us is that the WCI blog is a world-class repository of great advice for medical professionals and others with an interest in personal finance. In two years of following this blog, I really can’t recall a time when the information was materially inaccurate or advice unreliable. The WCI blog covers a good 75% of what the WCI target demographic needs to know, and nearly 100% of what a resident and very early career physician needs to know.
(Full disclosure: I have no personal or financial relationship with the WCI of any type, other than he profited from me when I bought his book!)
Thanks for the kind words. I’m working to fill in that other 25% as fast as I can.
This was a fantastic article that I could absolutely relate to. I’m a 47 year old mid-career burned out IM/hospitalist. I’ve always been interested in finance so I enrolled in an online MBA program and will graduate this December with a concentration in finance. I’d like to offer my perspective.
Healthcare Executive positions
If you’re looking to become a CMO of a hospital or healthplan then having an MBA on your resume MIGHT get you an interview but won’t always get you the job. It’s more about who you know. There are plenty of MBA-less MDs and DOs who are cheaper and possibly more connected that will get the job over someone with just a MD/MBA. How do I know this? Because I was one of those MBA-less MDs that landed a CMO job. A big reason why I got the position was the fact that the healthplan and the hospital I rounded at were owned by the same company. Many of my colleagues in the hospital also sat on the healthplan’s quality, credentialing and other committees. I was hired over a few other MDs that actually had MBAs – simply because I was a known entity. When I left (voluntarily – the hours were way too long for me) I actually helped the healthplan COO find my replacement – who was another MBA-less colleague that I knew. It’s hard to get in without networking. If this is the route you’re looking for I would recommend getting involved with your local hospital as a committee chairperson, chief of staff, etc to get your feet wet and start making those connections before enrolling in a MBA program
Finance
See above and increase the networking requirement by 100 fold. Unless you have a classmate or family member that works in private equity or investment banking then forget about it.
Consulting
This is a viable option and it’s not as hard as one would think to establish for mid/late career MD/MBAs. By this time in one’s career, a MD/MBA would have a VAST network of hospitals, physicians-owners, NPs, pharmacy owners, PT clinic owners, dentists and others who would benefit from some formal advice on operations, finance, strategic decision making, etc. The healthcare language is already known and the MBA gives you a new language. Many of these folks that I mentioned have wasted money on financial “consultants” who don’t understand clinical medicine and this causes major problems with implementing any change.
Entrepreneurship
This is why I went back to earn my MBA and I admit that I’m biased. I’m in the process of purchasing my first healthcare business and plan on purchasing many more. I’m already using my knowledge of accounting, finance, operations, business law, business statistics, etc with evaluating and purchasing practices. I feel extremely confident that I can run a profitable company without paying some consultant 200$/hr to write business plans, generate pro-formas, interpret financial statements and give me advice. In this setting – having an MBA becomes a HUGE advantage. My interactions with business bankers, contract attorneys and others are MUCH different now that I speak the language of business. I now have other entrepreneurs approaching me with ideas about entering the healthcare world.
I think it’s important to remember that the MD carries far more weight than an MBA. I would consider a MBA only to be icing on the cake.
A word of caution: the time commitment is HUGE so be prepared to spend lots of nights and weekends working on assignments. I would only recommend it if one or more of the following applies
1. Someone else is paying for it
2. You have specific, well laid out plan with timelines for your career goals
3. You have an interest in really studying business subjects in depth
Feel free to comment!
via email:
I likewise have an MD plus MBA plus 5 other degrees and wholeheartedly agree with him
It is no longer about what you know but who you know
Wow – that’s impressive! May I ask what are the other 5 degrees you hold?
Hi BJJDoc,
Thanks for your very informative comment. I am an MD,EMBA from a reputable school with similar interests and ambitions. Is there a possibility we can connect privately? your advise would be much valued. my email [email protected].
This is a really informative article that gave me a lot of insight about the dual degree program. I am currently a pre-med student and work as a scribe at a local hospital near my University. My whole life I’ve known that I wanted to be a physician and nothing else. It wasn’t until I started working at the emergency department that I started to diverge away from the idea of being a physician. As a scribe I have observed the the demands of that corporate puts on doctors with things like charting and it to me can be unfair to health care providers. I think pursuing the dual M.D./M.B.A program and climbing up the pyramid of corporate will able me to amend and modify corporate rules that sometimes interfere with influence physicans decision making.
Thanks “Arthur” for your insight. A really interesting read.
Linked to this article from the Facebook group and wanted to comment on my experience.
Completed MD/MBA at Texas Tech.
Perks:
-No added time (you begin the summer before med school and you are done the following summer)
– Extremely inexpensive (there is a scholarship made available only to MD/MBA students that covers 80% of costs. A required internship usually covers most of the rest). I estimate it cost me about less than $3000. Maybe $6000 by including opportunity cost of a foregone summer research job in order to take classes.
– Healthcare focus: didn’t want to spend time learning about cotton and oil business
– Diverse group of professionals: classmates were going, MD, JD, and PharmD routes as well as some who were straight MBAs going direct into healthcare admin.
Is it the best MBA program? No. Is it going to be a difference maker on drusen the line? Probably not. But it made me a much more interesting residency applicant and helped me understand the flip side of medical care that I was never exposed to as a med student.
Reading the article and the following comments has been very enlightening. I just completed my fellowship and have been considering an MBA for greater independence in work and acquiring competency in the world of corporate medicine. Could people mention which schools in their opinion offer great #online MBA and #4 Healthcare-Focused Executive MBA programs, understanding the differences in cost and convenience.