I'm always finding interesting things in my email box. A few details in this Q&A were changed to protect the innocent.
Q.
My physician friend is married to a previously high earning executive husband who was downsized 18 years ago and never found similar work again and refused lower paying jobs. He “borrowed” money from her to start a rutabaga farm on their large acreage but it failed. She states they agreed he would use the loan and his social security payments (his pension and severance are long gone) to cover the expenses of their acreage and huge luxury home. The plan was also to downsize about now if he could no longer afford that.
She feels until they downsize from it she will have to continue her work as an emergency physician. She feels that he gets to be Grandpa on their luxury farm but she doesn't have the money to retire to travel as she wants to do with “her” money and can't even afford to stay home and be Grandma like he gets to. She feels betrayed and that he broke a promise. Her friends, including me, think he has been depressed these many years and that she can't start being tough now after letting things slide all this time, and she of course can't just let the big house rot by not paying the upkeep/utilities. Of course, they also made a lot of mistakes along the way like private colleges for four kids and the luxury home.
A.
There are a number of financial solutions to these issues but they all start in the office of a marriage counselor, preferably with both spouses present. First, I'd like to make a few general comments, then I'll discuss a bit of specific advice.
Gotta Be On The Same Page
In my experience, it is exceedingly rare for a married couple to be financially successful if they are not on the same page. In this case, it doesn't sound like either of them has any kind of a real financial plan. But even if one of them did, it doesn't do any good unless the other one buys into it. It only takes one spouse to ruin even the best financial plan.
Finances Just A Symptom
In this case, as in many others, financial problems are just a symptom of the real problem. The real problem here is that these two spouses haven't learned to communicate with each other very well. The financial problems can all be fixed to a certain extent, but it will require a major commitment from both of them to do so.
No His and Hers
In a couple that is managing money well, there is no “his money” or “her money” or “borrowing” from one spouse to another. There is only “our money” and to be successful, both will be involved in managing it, at least with regards to the big decisions.
The Physician's Husband
I have had a number of financial advisors comment to me about how often female physicians marry “real bums” who are just looking for a “sugar momma.” I have no idea if the percentages are any higher with female docs than male docs, but it obviously happens both ways. Some of the solutions to this problem involve proper selection of a spouse, but a good part of it is being a good spouse. That means setting limits and boundaries and having an appropriate relationship.
The family that surfs together stays together
It isn't about “being tough.” It is about combining both of your hopes and dreams and working together toward those goals. It's a conversation about what you both really want out of life. She clearly does not care as much about a lot of acreage and a luxury home as she does about retiring, spending time with the grandkids, and traveling. She is unhappy because her finances and time are not aligned with her priorities. We don't know if he is unhappy, since at this point readers are getting this story at least 3rd hand. But if he is clinically depressed, part of the “boundaries and limits” is going to involve him going to get professional help.
Financial Steps To Take
Once both of these spouses can get on the same page, they need to align their financial life with their priorities. If the priority is to get her to retirement ASAP, here are the best steps to take:
- Get on a written budget. They should look at everything they spend on and determine if that is more important to them than retiring earlier.
- Get a financial plan. Presumably getting on a budget will free up some investment capital and it needs to be invested wisely. Chances are good this couple will need a good financial planner. If they were going to do this themselves, they would have done it a long time ago.
- Sell the house and acreage. Better to sell now than be foreclosed later, and this should free up an immense amount of capital to invest for retirement. Downsizing probably isn't even optional and the sooner it is done, the better, as discussed here.
Gold Level Scholarship Sponsor
- Stop living like a doctor. Your friend can't go back and undo private schools and the luxury home, but you can start making smart decisions going forward. She cannot live the same lifestyle as her colleagues who have been making smart financial decisions for 30 years. If she tries, her financial situation will continue to spiral downward. The good news is she still has the ability to trade her time for money at a very high rate as an emergency physician. The bad news is she won't be able to do that forever.
- Send him to work. Nobody is ever going to pay him what he was making 20 years ago. But that hardly means it isn't worth him working at least part-time. It will do wonders for his self-esteem, perhaps he can stop his Social Security payments in exchange for a higher payment later, and it will certainly allow her to cut back a bit. Even a few shifts makes a big difference for an emergency doc. I'm a big fan of stay at home parents whenever possible. But a stay at home grandparent in a family with serious financial issues? Not an option barring disability.
- Delay Social Security. It sounds as though he is already on Social Security (or perhaps disability payments.) The standard advice for those with inadequate retirement savings is to work as long as you can and delay Social Security until 70. That's probably good advice for her. But even going part-time would help with the retirement savings while allowing some travel and grandma time.
What do you think? Have you seen friends and colleagues with issues like these? What would you recommend? Divorce? Counseling? Hiring a financial planner? Selling the house? Do female physicians marry guys looking for a sugar momma more than their male colleagues do? Comment below!
1. If the husband is receiving social security, I’m guessing the couple is in their 60s, making it harder for the husband to find a new job. Maybe he can find fulfilling part time work but at their age they might want to consider marriage counseling to figure out priorities.
2. I can’t help wondering about how gender roles affect this scenario. Would a male physician resent his stay at home wife for being laid off and having an unsuccessful garden? I think the marital/gender dynamics of their relationship may be a bigger issue than the money.
I think the stereotypes regarding have a huge impact on the perception of this situation. If we changed no details at all (even keep the rutabaga farm) except for just switching the genders, I think that most would perceive the situation very differently.
There are boatloads of male physicans or other high earners that have spouses that don’t really work (including raising kids, homemaking, etc). It happens all the time. With women becoming better and better educated, we’re going to see the reverse more. Presumably the high-earner who enters such a relationship realizes this and has decided that they’re OK with it. Of course, sometimes, they find that they’re not as OK as they thought (like the story in the post) and when that day comes they will pay a heavy price if they want to get out.
Generally speaking this is not a problem that will be solved by budgeting, better communication, etc. I’m not saying to not try those things. But I doubt they will work. When this happens it’s almost entirely a, as WCI puts it, a spouse selection problem.
As a female physician-in-training and a single late 20-something, the kind of guy that would be marriage material for me would be someone who shares similar values and life philosophies to mine, including being ambitious, hard-working, frugal, optimistic, self-reflective, and constantly working to improve himself. I’m not interested in the guys just looking for a sugar momma or a female breadwinner. I see so many of my female colleagues dating or married to guys who are bums, lazy, unambitious, or chronically under-employed, and it puzzles me also.
Yeah it puzzles me too. I know of female residents going out with criminals just out of jail that work manual labor jobs (nothing wrong with those jobs in a vacuum but your body wears out) but having no felonies is basic stuff for me at least.
Money isn’t everything but more formally educated people tend IMHO to have greatwr interest in learning and I find that appealing.
Most men dislike having wives that make more than then which may be an explanation to these situations. I’m the opposite since I don’t want a gold digger wife but whatever tis life and people.
Would you find an ambitious, hard-working, frugal, optimistic, self-reflective, and constantly-working to improve himself man who makes about 50K/year and unlikely to make more than 100K/year to be marriage material?
If I were a female I’d look for a man to “pull his weight” and make close to or more than me. Education matters too; X dollars with a masters versus X dollars with a HS degree isn’t the same to me.
But obviously not everybody is so methodical in love.
That would not be an absolute dealbreaker depending on the whole package the guy brings otherwise, but I agree with ConfusedresidentXY that it would be more ideal if our incomes and education levels were similar. I grew up in a household where my father had an 8th grade education and my mother went back to school to earn a Master’s degree, and this was a constant point of contention between them. I believe past behavior is the best indicator of future potential. I’ve been hustling and working like crazy from a very young age to achieve the education and credentials I have already, as well as to continue down this path toward who I want to be and what I want to accomplish in the next 10, 20, and 30 years. A guy who doesn’t have the same philosophy and a proven track record of accomplishing his goals isn’t attractive to me.
Too bad I don’t meet more female residents like you. 😉
All the ones here are marrying questionable men like the aforementioned poor, uneducated (violent) felon and others are marrying unemployed guys with very poor job prospects befitting a HS degree. 🙁
I sound really judgemental (and I probably am) but more education tends to lead to more income and financial stability.
And more stuff in common if you’re a female physician.
Not clear to me which partner in this vignette is the depressed one. Probably both. She should get into counseling herself, even if he refuses to go. Finance here seems to be more the symptom than the true problem. By overly focusing on finance, they might be distracted from focusing on their real relationship issues.
It doesn’t really sound like depression. More like pride and boredom. Pride for not wanting to take a lower paying job, perhaps he doesn’t want to feel inadequate with a physician wife? Boredom because he has to do something with his time, albeit there are probably cheaper options than a rutabaga farm
Possibly. I was just reflecting the word “depressed” from the vignette not trying to diagnose major depression. I give him (or any stay at home parent) a lot of credit for the job of being primary time giver to the kids, in this example four of them. To me it sounds like they’ve grown apart in life and need to start dreaming together again. To me, the wife sounds like she is having a mid life crisis and is more likely the “depressed” one. I don’t really see finance as being the main issue here. Focusing on it at this point may do more harm than good as it can be such a source of discord.
I would agree that both partners are probably depressed and need counseling. It sounds like the guy was initially a go getter but could not adapt to change. Perhaps he really thought the rutabaga farm would salvage his ego and diversify their income stream. I married late so I definitely view my retirement money as my money. I think that is different if the spouse was with you for the accumulation phase. I jointly own a farm with my husband. It is something he enjoys. He thinks it will eventually make some money. I invested in the property but he funds improvements etc. I also wonder about many female docs who seem to marry guys who hang out on the golf course.
I’m always amazed at how many of my colleagues throw around the word depressed or depression without considering the actual criteria for this disorder.
In regards to a spouse and money, you need to decide how important money is to you. Most people lie and say it isn’t but it really is to the individual. Some make an honest mistake that they think it isn’t important to them. Same is true about whether or not to have kids and many issues.
In my own life, my wife is a money pit. She doesn’t read this site so don’t worry about my immediate health. In case it isn’t clear, that’s mostly a joke but my wife has no idea how much money is in checking or what she spends on CC. It did used to bother me but fortunately (sort of the opposite of this story), my earning power increased. Will it affect me again? Who knows but it isn’t my top priority. I’ve also structured things such that a good amount is saved.
I don’t know how many physician couples have a failed rutabaga farm story, but it’s not uncommon to hear about the spouse of a high earning individual making poor investment or “business” choices with the money earned by his or her partner.
Sometimes the “rutabaga farm” is a franchise opportunity, an MLM scheme, or ill-conceived retail / restaurant idea. None of these should be attempted without full support from both spouses / partners, and a solid plan to make it successful or limit losses if it doesn’t perform as hoped.
My wife and I are very much on the same page when it comes to finances, thank goodness. There was a guest post about this awhile back, I recall.
This Q/A post started rough….but it took an immediate NOSE DIVE at this statement: “He “borrowed” money from her to start a rutabaga farm”
There is so much wrong with these 10 words I can’t even fathom.
Wow. Always amazed at how dumb some very smart people are (assuming she is a very smart ER doc 😉
Unrelated to this example, but the typical story that I have seen is that both spouses start out life financially clueless, not saving enough, spending too much. One day, usually around late 30s/early 40s, one of the spouses stumbles upon a site like this or a good book, and there is an awakening….
There is an immediate push to spend less and save more. The other still clueless spouse often resists, thinking “what the heck I/we worked and trained hard our whole life so we can know live like this.”
There is a negotiation that either goes well or poorly. Their is often initial resentment of the new monitoring of spending habits. Why are you now monitoring the CC and online banking accounts? Do you really think it is wise to handle our own investments? And the such?
Ultimately this a sales pitch. The winning pitch involves getting buy in that saving more and working harder now will pay exponential dividends in retiring earlier, less stress, less overall work, better life for you and your kids.
If your spouse is so inclined, try to get them to read sites like this or start off at Bogleheads site and learn the ways of the force with you.
Physician on FIRE likes this.
(since there is no button)
Lol… PoF… I asked for the button- it was denied! :))
You nailed it for me. Although I have always been frugal, I happened to stumble on this site which also led me to Bogleheads and MMM and it was an awakening for me. It took some time working with the spouse, having her read blog posts from these 3 great sites and now she is on board as well. Our goal is to both go part time in a few years and continue to enjoying work, family, and life on our terms.
As for the QA person. They need to downsize ASAP.
Wow! This exactly mirrors our own “awakening” in my late 30’s… Stumbled onto WCI and intitally it was hell trying to monitor and “cut” spending… Now 2.5 years later, the small changes and tweaks are paying huge dividends and we are on our way to FI (and like POF – dont think I will actually retire) in the next 4 to 7 years… And a whole LOT less stress and a whole LOT more life satisfaction!
JN likes this (since there is no like button)…to thegipper that post really resonated with me… I am that example where I am in my mid 30s and recently got turned onto this website/book and the scenario with my wife is playing out as you stated above… You should really consider writing a post on this
Wow, this makes me feel bad about being a stay at home dad spouse of a physician. Guess we are all just leeches.
Unless you, too, bought a rutabaga farm, I can’t comprehend why that story would make you feel like a bum for being at home to raise your child(ren).
I’m sorry you feel that way. It was not the intent. Maybe it’s the comments making you feel that way as this is what I wrote about it:
not a bum – my husband does this too and it has saved our marriage, sanity and children’s lives on more than one occasion!
So true. Right after the rules of “one house, one spouse,” sharing goals and dreams with your spouse is the key to success and fulfillment. If you’re not working together, you’re working against each other, and who wants that?
I find the description of non-working husbands of female physicians as bums to be ridiculous. Would you consider a stay-at-home mom who does a little bit of low paid work mainly for intellectual stimulation a bum? I certainly wouldn’t.
Most sociological studies have showed that women with prestigious careers are looking for a spouse with at least as high a degree of prestige. Most men don’t care. This is imbalance is part of what explains that about twice the rate of female physicians never marry as their male counterparts: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/lifestyle/2014/public/overview#21
A female physician marrying a non-working spouse is being rational.
I think it is terribly irrational for a female physician to marry a non-working spouse. Physician burnout is high, and to “trap” yourself in a relationship where you have to be the breadwinner is no good. I also think attraction to an unmotivated spouse wanes over time. You’ll spend your time at the office or hospital around other people like you and your spouse will not seem very interesting anymore. If a female physician then divorces an unmotivated partner, she’s stuck paying alimony or child support. And I can’t imagine not feeling resentful if my spouse was able to enjoy quality time chilling at the ranch with kids or grandkids while I’m out paying the bills. I feel sorry for the physician in this post. I think they should go to counseling, and she, being the only person willing to work, should rearrange their financial lives in a way that is most satisfying to her. Maybe that means a smaller house and less hours for her.
Is there any reason that all of why you specified female physician. Wouldn’t everything you wrote apply equally to male physicians?
Probably, but maybe to a lesser extent due to cultural norms and possibly also family history and religious beliefs. I didn’t mean for this to apply to a stay-at-home spouse with young children at home – that seems like the hardest of all jobs.
Regarding his Social Security – under the new regulations passed in November 2015:
1) If he has been claiming SS for more than 12 months, he cannot suspend payments.
2) If he is still w/i the 1 year time-frame, he can withdraw his application, pay back all benefits received and repay all Medicare and voluntary tax withheld. This will allow his benefits to grow by 8% per year up until age 70 or any prior year he reapplies. If he does this and his wife is claiming a spousal benefit, both benefits will be suspended.
There might have been an option to file and suspend and claim spousal benefits on his wife’s account, but that window closed on 4/29. If he was eligible to do so, I sure hope he got appropriate advice about it.
It sounds like no one mentally recovered from his layoff. She may have been overly optimistic that he’d find high-paying work again, otherwise why would she 1) agree to “loan” him money that ultimately went toward funding a luxury home while he was unemployed, and 2) wait 18 years to downsize per “plan”. That plan stinks. They should’ve downsized right after he lost his job.
It’s too bad it took them so long to realize the pickle they were in, but worse that she doesn’t realize she’s partly to blame too.
The worst part is that he feels entitled to another high paying job. A close second is that he spends so much money. The Millionaire Next Door was written in a different era, but the spiel on having a spouse who is more frugal than you being the key to financial success is true for both genders, not just one. I feel like if the higher earning spouse is the less frugal one, you are in far better shape as a couple.
There are definitely many layers at play in this situation, but they cant continue down their current path, financial or personally. I know we discussed physician burn out a while back, and in this situation its only a matter of time. “Gotta be on the same page” for sure, because of all the decisions we make in life. The decisions of how we spend our time(i.e work) and who we spend it with(husband/wife) are two of the most important.
I’m not a female physician but I am a female high earning attorney. Without getting into too many specifics I am somewhat in the same boat as the female physician in the story. I don’t mind my husband staying home with the kids (and he does a great job with that), but we have a property “investment” that is a major financial millstone and he won’t agree to sell it, and the only way to thread this financial needle is to simply buck up and continue to pay off the debt so it does not consume cash. Trying to reach a compromise is difficult because there is no “compromise”–you either sell it or you don’t. I struggle with this because to force the sale (by an ultimatum) is counterproductive unless you really are sure you are willing to lose the marriage over it. With kids I am not willing to just discard the marriage. The other problem is that I don’t be the one who ruins his dream of owning this property. I would feel like the bad guy. So I just continue to fix the situation the only way I know how, which is to keep working to make enough money to simply pay the dang thing off eventually. The problem is that the physician in the story is not prioritizing her own best-interests and happiness and neither is her husband. Any solutions start with the marriage itself and the physician herself. I understand how it would be hard to jettison a long term marriage and also hard to play the bad guy making the husband sell the property.
1st marriage: married classmate after third year med school, he had 30K in credit card debt from living expenses during college, but no educational debt; I had 17K undergrad debt and went to med school all on loans, which totaled 165K when done (so 165 + 17 = 182K total, reached 197K with interest accrual by the time I started paying it back after deferring loan repayments through residency). We unfortunately trained in low pay specialities (FP and Psych) in a high cost area (NJ). We bought a cheap home (122K!) in a modest neighborhood. We both drove old Toyotas. We never ate in restaurants and vacations were once every couple of years. In spite of this, over the next 15 years, we spiraled deeper and deeper into debt. He opened his own self-pay Psychiatry practice and paid exorbitant business rent, proceeded to buy tons of books and journal subscriptions (on credit cards!), paid thousands yearly for additional ongoing therapy training (also on credit cards!) while I became an employee of a practice that was owned by one physician (no partnership opportunity) and offered no retirement plan. You could not have designed a bigger disaster if you tried. We were 500K in debt when we divorced. While most people’s net worth goes down when they divorce, mine actually increased because I had stopped the bleed.
Marriage 2.0: We met online. He had been downsized a decade earlier from the industry he had been in for twenty years and had to spend several years going back to school and retraining in a different area. He unfortunately became a victim of downsizing again from his new field about two years after we met. He is now a stay-at-home spouse and we are better off financially (and otherwise) than ever. In the first marriage, in addition to working, I did everything else–taking care of the kids, cooking the meals, cleaning the house, etc., etc. I was completely burned out. Now, I arrive home each day to a clean house and a fresh, home-cooked meal. He does the shopping and errands as well. We are not both frazzled from working all day and can enjoy the evening together. In fact, his availability allowed me to take a higher-paying medical director job since he can help my 11 year old daughter get ready for school in the morning (I leave before she is awake). My net worth is finally in the black, I am maxing my 401K, we eat out when we want to and take day trips and vacations.
Bottom line: Spousal selection is key. I don’t think gender matters. Comparing my two spouses on paper, you would think the one with the M.D. would be the sure bet over the guy with the Bachelor’s degree who has been downsized from two different industries. The difference is that my now-husband and I think of ourselves as a team working toward achieving a shared goal and we both play a critical role. I could not be a relaxed and happy medical director if he didn’t have my back at home, taking care of things that I now get to ignore. And he could not have become involuntarily retired at age 56 were it not for my income floating us. Yes, without both of us employed it will take a little longer to reach our net worth goals, but the two-doctor income I had in my first marriage certainly didn’t get me there either! To “A bum” above: your importance in your family’s success is undeniable and you should not discount that, I’m sure your MD-wife knows that too. To all you ladies: watch for Red Flags (when I asked Husband#1 about his 30K in credit card debt that he accrued during undergraduate, he said he just bought stuff when he wanted to and figured he’d eventually be making more than he was spending and he would pay it off then! Guess what–he still has CC debt). OMG, I should have run in the other direction but I was naïve. I assumed a two doctor family could not fail financially. I won’t repeat what WCI has said about geographic and specialty choices, but read up on it if you have not. It is not to be ignored, especially if you come out with 6 figure debt like me. But most importantly, get on the same page as your spouse, no matter what their gender, or save yourself–get out and move on as soon as you can. Just for the record, I got no alimony or child support from H#1, in fact I gave him our house because it was underwater and I couldn’t see it selling. I don’t think it matters if you marry up or down or which one works and which one stays home, if you are not doing it as a team, you may find yourself in trouble and have only yourself to blame.
Thank you for sharing that. I completely agree about the teamwork aspect.
Njfp – so wish your post had a “like” button to click!
I love your post! Thank you for sharing that. You are so right.
Us women lust for the sexy bad boys. Women doctors are no exception. When my husband croaks, I’m finding myself a sexy Afghani warlord or an ISIS terrorist.
I guess the new paradigm is female docs lust after sexy personal trainers whereas male docs lusted after blonde drug reps and beauty pageant winners. After my bad boy croaks I think I will stay single!
As a single male doc, sounds like my best bet is to start moonlighting in personal training…
I agree with almost all of the post, except for not keeping money separate. Until after you are married you really don’t know the financial attitudes of your spouse and having separate accounts allows for the spending and saving variations. I don’t have to argue with my wife about her spending as long as it is her money being spent. Same as she can’t argue that I spend too little. It seems that these folks need a marriage counselor.
I agree it is important that each spouse have some of their “own money” to spend however they like. We do that with allowances. All money earned goes into a single pot/account, then allowances come out of it. I suppose the same thing can be accomplished by keeping the “allowance” out of the pot to start with. The most important thing is that both partners are in agreement on the plan.
Thomas Stanley called the deadbeat husband type “Marginal Bob” in the Millionaire Women Next Door. If link doesn’t work just google “marginal bob”
https://books.google.com/books?id=L_KdoKStpCgC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=%22marginal+bob%22&source=bl&ots=LNW3d0jYkj&sig=u2DuU9BDXz_NA80I6T1J3cEL9wU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD6bm-3PDMAhVDElIKHcn4DV8Q6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22marginal%20bob%22&f=false