[Editor's Note: This is a guest post from a Northern California cardiologist who blogs about parenting and personal finance at DadsDollarsDebts.com. This is a great post that explores where medicine and parenting collide. We have no financial relationship. Enjoy!]
Raising kids is tough but rewarding work. It is honestly the hardest thing I have done. Harder than being on call. Worse than telling a loved one that their family member has died unexpectedly. Definitely worse than dealing with my dislike of confrontation. [Wait, isn't that the definition of parenting?-ed]
Still it is the most rewarding thing I have ever done. Watching all of those synapses connect and all of the experimentation that goes on in my little ones head. It is quite incredible. As I am raising mini me my biggest thoughts are about how to not screw this up–how to raise a productive member of society instead of a serial killer.
Parents and Kids
DDD and Mini-DDD
It seems that all of our interactions, starting at a very young age shape who we are. Parents are kids biggest influencers. From the time we are 1 day old, we are watching the actions of our parents, learning from their communication styles, and figuring out how important relationships work. We have to watch what we do and say in front of our kids, even when they can’t communicate.
For example, Mrs. DDD and I have a pretty solid relationship. It is rare to get in a dispute, but like all relationships it happens occasionally. A few months back, we had a slightly heated conversation in front of our then 18 month old boy. He quickly changed his smiling face and started crying.
It was obvious to Mrs. DDD and me that we had screwed up. We quickly changed our tune. That memory sticks in my head going forward every day. How quickly my son absorbed that feeling of conflict and emotionally reacted to it! Now I continue to try and be positive with him about all my daily interactions, including doctoring.
Role Modeling
Interactions and role modeling also are true for careers. When someone asks me why I became a doctor, I really don’t have a cool answer like “I wanted to help people” or “I really loved science”. Don’t get me wrong, I like helping people. This is a very rewarding job and there are days where I really feel like I have made a difference. There are days too, where I just feel like a customer service rep at your local chain store. With patient satisfaction forms and checkboxes that need to be clicked, it is hard not to get disheartened at times.
So why did I become a doctor? Role modeling. My father is a physician and his grandfather was a physician before him. So I became a physician. I really never gave it any thought. It was just what I was going to do. It was expected. I assume that’s why firefighter and policeman families exist. One person does it and the rest follow suit. So I wonder if my kid will want to become a doctor, and if so should I dissuade him?
This is a tough topic. When I poll my colleagues, most say they would not want their kids in medicine. We all understand how fortunate we are to be in a high paying job where we are actually helping people. For the most part we are all our own bosses (yes, even the employed physicians maintain some degree of autonomy). I am also in the camp that I hope my son does not choose a career in medicine. It seems sad to say so. I, however, will never tell him this and will try to model the positives in our fields. [Ha ha, wait until he reads this as PGY2!-ed] So how can I go forward and raise a kid who wants to do something else?
Supporting Interests
My plan is to be supportive of all of my kid's interests and talents. I say interests AND talents because he may have interest and want to pursue basketball. If he is anything like me, he will lack the LeBron genes and talents. Sorry kid, you will have to go to college! As he grows and his interests change, we will support those too.
Hopefully over time he will find what he is interested in and devote a lot of time to it (10,000 hours anyone?) Become talented. Make a living. This is much like the boy who built a nuclear reactor in high school, Taylor Wilson. I will try to not discourage any of his interests until he figures this out. Then if he wants to become a physician, I will support that too. If, however, he wants to become a rockstar, I am ready to buy an RV and travel around the county being his number one fan. Man I hope he becomes a rockstar.
5 Reasons I Do Not Want My Kid To Be a Doctor
- Emotional fatigue- As a cardiologist there are days when I am dealing with very sick and dying people. There are days people die unexpectedly. This is very trying on the soul and can lead to physician burnout. More importantly, it can lead to emotional fatigue so that when I get home, I do not have the energy to bring it for my wife and kid. I try my best to distance work from home, but some days I am just beat by the time I get home and am not as patient handling my toddler.
- Sacrifice- Burning his 20s in medical school and residency (minimum 7 years with some people doing up to 12 years). He will be missing out on potential earnings at that point and time with friends. Though residency was quite fun and most residents know how to party. As they say, work hard play hard!
- Bureaucracy- Medicine is an ever changing field where Congress, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, and people with MBAs who have never touched a patient have more control over your practice then you do.
- Sunk cost fallacy- As I discussed previously, once he has committed 7 to 12 years of life towards a task, it is hard to leave it even if he hates it. [Especially if he owes $500K in student loans.-ed] So once in medicine it is likely he will stay in medicine until he retires. That makes me itch. I like movement, change, and entropy. Other careers may allow for more lateral or upward movement. For instance, leaving a $100K job for another $100K job in a different field is easy. Leaving a $300K job in medicine for a $150K job in tech is hard.
- Physical fatigue- There are a lot more physically taxing jobs like construction work. Still some of our colleagues, like Orthopedic surgeons, wear body lead for 8 hour surgeries. This takes a toll on the back and knees over time. Not to mention hazards such as radiation exposure, etc. The other side of this equation is that some “non-physician” jobs have you sit at a desk all day which is also harmful. Actually, my job requires me to sit in front of a computer all day. Darn electronic medical records!
5 Reasons Why I Am Okay If My Kid Chooses to Be A Doctor
- Freedom to Choose- It’s his choice. If he wants to pursue medicine, without my pushing, then I am all for it. I will help him to my full abilities, though I may recommend a call-light field like dermatology or allergy.
- Service-oriented- He can help people. This is a job where every day I go in and know that I am helping at least 1 person. Really making a difference in their lives. That is pretty satisfying.
- Nice living- He will make a stable living and likely a good income. I think a career in medicine is quite stable with very rare occasions for unexpected job loss. Plus, it is a way to make over $100K and up to $1,000,000 depending on the chosen field. Will it be as lucrative in 26 years when Young DDD is ready to practice? Nobody knows, but I suspect it will still be in the upper middle class range.
- Great relationships- Training allows for meeting great friends. There is nothing as good for forming friendships as putting people through hardships. Medical school, residency, and fellowship all do that and the relationships built become quite strong. Some of my best friends are from these periods of my life and I am thankful for it.
- Job mobility- As a physician you can move practically anywhere, especially if you are a generalist. As a general cardiologist I can live in small town America or big city USA. It doesn’t matter. It may take some time to find the job I want in the area I want, but I can do it with patience and perseverance. There are not many jobs that can do that.
Going forward we will see where life leads. It is so cool to watch him grow as I continue on my path to financial independence so hopefully by the time he is 10 and I am 45, I can leave work if I want and help him continue to grow into a good human being.
What do you think? Would you want your kids in medicine? Why and why not? Comment below!
Very thought-provoking article, DDD. My father was a dentist, but was passionate about the stock market and investing. Through the modeling you described, it’s no surprise where my career ended up.
I once was talking to a daughter (high school senior) of an OB whether she wanted to be a doctor like her father. She emphatically said no, describing the long hours and constant overnight call required of her father to deliver babies.
I’ll encourage (but of course not force) my kids to pursue medicine. For all of its problems, medicine is a wonderful profession where you get to help people at a very high pay with excellent job security.
There are not many jobs that provide the stability, pay, and respect that medicine does. Plus you get to come home every day knowing you helped at least one person out.
My wife has loved her OBG career, even now as she enters her last month of practice. Our sons, however, agree with the young lady–none of them were interested in medicine. Although they have never said it in so many words, seeing mom’s schedule in a two, then three, doctor general OBG practice likely was a factor.
Thanks for the article, and this is something I think about for my young kids. Of course I want them to do whatever makes them happy, but (as for most things in life) you may not know if you like something until you are far along in the course of doing it. Also your priorities in your 30s and 40s will likely be different than they are when you are a young, single, early twenty something. I am still trying to decide how much I will encourage medicine if they do express some interest
One positive about medicine is that there is a field for everyone. Don’t want emotional strain? Do radiology or pathology. Don’t want to work long hours? Do dermatology or find a part time gig.
It is a long path but so are many worthy endeavors in life. Other degrees may give you a paycheck at 22 but maybe you have to work up a ladder throughout your 20s. Actually a residents paycheck is probably as much or more than that which many people with bachelors degrees get.
The major drawback to medicine that I see is student loan debt. I can see this as a major deterrent, but for those whose parents can foot the bill (like my kids) I think medicine could be a great career as long as there are no major changes over the next decade or so
One of the best parts of medicine is the many doors it opens. Like you mention, you can go into as diverse fields from psychiatry to radiology (though the Happy Philosopher recently posted about how exhausting that field can be).
Without loans the doors for various opportunities would be much wider. As you mentioned, most (if not all) of our children will have their college paid for. They may even have their medical school paid for buy their parents which allows for less stress in selecting a career path.
Really thoughtful post. It is a fine line between pushing and encouraging.
It is a fine line and my parents were more towards the pushing when I was younger. Now they encourage. I am grateful that they helped me reach my current career, but will be cautious with my own kids in the future.
You’ve hit the high points, Triple D.
I liken this question to the “Would you choose medicine as a career if you could do it all over again?” question. It’s not exactly the same, but if you love your kids and want them to be happy, the answers will likely be similar. Although it is fair to say that the environment we’ve trained and worked in is different than what our kids will face.
I don’t regret becoming a physician and if either of my boys feel it is their calling, I won’t discourage them. I will do my best to help them understand that it is a thoroughly demanding profession in many ways, and there are easier paths to financial independence if they choose to make it a priority.
Best,
-PoF
There are many easier paths to financial independence, but few as guaranteed as medicine (if you live like a resident for a few years and don’t get on the hedonistic treadmill!).
Earlier in the year, as I began thinking more and more about FIRE, I thought Early Retirement was my goal. Now, as I have found a good work life balance with my current practice, I think getting to where I feel comfortable working part-time would actually lead to more happiness.
There are not many careers you can work part time and still make over $200K. Medicine is one and if my kids are passionate about it, then I will recommend they pursue their dreams.
In other words, if Doctors work half time, (they would still be above average earners), control their expenses, and save about 20% of the half time income, they would still live a good lifestyle without emotional exhaustion, full of satisfaction that they serve humanity, and flexibility to work anywhere with almost guaranteed job security.
How many would be willing to try this to be happy? The Happy Philosopher is doing it. I don’t work exactly half time, but have always worked part time.
Recently, during a contract transition, I picked up extra work for about 3 months. The exhaustion was unbelievable. I was counting down days – felt like counting down days in a prison. Daily mindfulness meditation was one thing that saved me from burning out during this time. My children watched this change, they also watch when I am happy with my work which is most of the time.
Modelling is important- not just our careers but happiness too. Just like, having a disagreement in front of kids is okay if you model how a good argument is done and resolved.
You hit the nail on the head with the hammer! That is what I was just commenting on with PoF.
Modeling behavior is the ultimate parenting tool. Whether it is with finances, fitness, diet, or work-life balance. My boss recently told me I could work more too if I chose. I graciously said no thanks. I hope in the next 5 years to go part time and imagine a much improved work-life balance (though as I stated above, my current practice is pretty great).
Well done DDD.
So far none of my kids are nagging me for the secrets to become a doctor. I think they only see the long and erratic work hours so far.
I haven’t build up the profession but rather I’ve tried to be honest about my experience. I don’t want to be one of those cranky doctors that discourages everyone from going into medicine because the new crop of physicians will have different expectations than I did so the profession might be just fine for them.
One thing I do stress to my children is even though we enjoy a nice lifestyle, we didn’t take on a ton of debt. I don’t think it’s worth going into mid to high six figure debt to pursue medicine at this point.
Tom @ HIP
It is funny what we consider high debt. I took out $170K for school and feel like I got off cheap compared to people coming out now. I agree. No need to take out $500K to go to school.
I was the cranky doctor for a short while. I have since improved and can come at advice in a more realistic and positive light.
So you both would not recommend medicine for a career to anyone that had to borrow to so? (I noticed in the article it was mentioned that if your kids chose the medical path you would be able to pay for their education.)
This line of thinking seems unfortunate to me because it leads me to think that we are saying only those who come from a financially well-off place already should go into medicine. I understand this is not exactly what you are saying but just what it leads me to think about
(My husband is pgy-2 and we are in a huge debt hole for school – despite my being a huge WCI fan & both of us smart with money/frugal – so I’m sure this is skewing my viewpoint.)
I’m not sure who “you both” refers to, but I certainly don’t advocate what you are suggesting. Borrowing for an education is an investment, and you need to get a return on that investment. But at current tuition prices/interest rates I think a case can still be made for going to medical school. The average doc with the average doc income and the average doc debt is still fine. He can live like a resident for <5 years and pay off his med school debt. But at the extremes- lower income/higher debt level, it's starting to break down. It's much worse for a general dentist- more debt, less income. We're pretty close to a scenario where dental school doesn't make sense if completely borrowed. Calculate out the payments on a $500K debt and see what percentage of a $120K gross income it would require to service it. It's pretty disheartening. But you don't get a pass on math. Now if you can make some smart decisions and get a little help and come out of dental school with <$250-300K in debt, then sure, I think dental school to be a general dentist can still work out. But if you're looking at debt levels above that and planning on general dentistry employee jobs, I think you really ought to consider doing something else or perhaps if you have a desire to serve, letting the military pay.
Hey DDD, great to see you over here! My first thought is that a “career in medicine” can mean SO many different things. Academics, private practice, research, public health—the list goes on. Not to mention the huge variability in work and lifestyle among specialties. Neurointerventional radiology and fertility medicine are about as different as being a lawyer and a farmer (no offense to anyone in any of those fields:))
I didn’t have any reference point for life as a physician, as I am the first in my extended family. Overall, I’m glad I chose medicine. But if medical school costs continue to increase and reimbursements continue to contract, there will be an inflection point in the future when it becomes charity work rather than a way to make a living, and I won’t recommend it for my children.
Take care
Dr. C
There are also a multitude of MDs/DOs that graduate and never practice medicine. They go into pharma or start running companies. There is a certain respect that the degree affords that I don’t think other degrees provide.
Each of my younger siblings is a high academic achiever (nat’l merit, perfect SAT, etc); each of them laugh and offer up a decisive ‘No way,’ when asked if they’re going to be a doctor. Mission accomplished.
So what are they going to do?
What is so unappealing to non medical people?
Yeah, the schooling is hard. But what isn’t?
Yeah, its expensive but what isn’t?
Yeah, its can be long hours. So they are going to be entrepreneurs….I am assuming there are lots of long hours in a start up.
They are going to finance people and start at an entry level job for a Manhattan bank where they find themselves someone else boy. Running errands for their “rain maker” with visions of one day getting there.
I think we all think the grass always looks greener on the other side.
Medicine/Dental certainly have great upside just when we are in it it feels like a real grind. We just have to have perspective.
I have not encouraged either of my children to go into medicine, but I have not discouraged it either. They are well aware that I am able to support the family well and enjoy my work. After a recent bout of appendicitis, my younger son (age 11) declared he was interested in becoming a surgeon. I told him how much I had enjoyed surgery as a medical student, and that it was a fine and rewarding profession. There’s plenty of time for him to dream and decide.
If at some point he decides he wants to be a primary care physician, however, I am not sure I could be as supportive. In my opinion, family practice is the hardest specialty to do well, and seeing how independent nurse practitioners tout that they have better outcomes that FP doctors for less money (citing poorly written and poorly conducted studies, imo), I would not support his going into debt to achieve this.
That said, I seriously worry about who will take care of me when I am old. Everyone on this site seems eager to retire early, I hear horror stories daily of poorly trained NPs missing diagnoses, and the art of primary care seems a lost cause. I wish I could honestly encourage more of these smart and motivated kids to go into primary care, but it is a depressing prospect.
I practice in a place where the primary care doctors are amazing but overworked (as I guess they are every where). I could only support them going into primary care if they were debt free and good with their finances or if the country wakes up and starts paying PCPs what they are worth.
The future will be interesting for medicine as a whole, payment models, and the role of extended care providers in managing patients.
My kids are elementary school aged so the topic of careers does come up. I’m not really pushing medicine. Right now their sights are on either “being a teacher like mommy or a doctor like daddy”. On alternate days my son will declare that he wants to be a “youtuber”.
I think for me the key is to push them to work their hardest to be successful. Whatever they do they shouldn’t be mediocre they should work to the top of their game. I do try and interject some teachings about how finances will affect their eventual lives and that part of being successful involves some focus on finances.
Please please encourage him to be a “you tuber”. Success is low but if he does he will be financially independent over night!
This came up with my cousin recently (she is a psychiatrist). Her son was less interested in traditional academics and finally decided to go to film school. 1 year in and he is doing great. He also has made an album and is playing gigs around the Denver area. He is happy and working hard in his chosen field. It is cool to see someone who was apathetic about school take such an interest when allowed to choose their path.
So this is what Dad’s Dollars Debts is hoping his kids are going to be “youtubers”?!!!
Are you serious?
This is a blog for White Coat People, high achievers, type A people, competitive people.
People that are/were very interested in “traditional academics”.
I don’t think many people reading this would agree with you.
Yes, I think it is a great that a kid that didn’t like school found something that he was good at.
But we can’t tell all kids that love to sit around and play video games to go into game making.
(or be beta testers for games).
This might be my “old school” or close minded but eventually they are going to have to work….like in hard work.
It might not be a profession, but a kid can make some dough on youtube as a fun hobby, even while in elementary school. A friend’s daughter had a video “go viral” and made several thousand dollars. Why not encourage it?
Because you made it sound that “youtubing” was a job.
Hey if he wants to do it as a hobby, then that sounds like fun.
But eventually this person is going to have to grow up and get a job.
And even if he is going to make videos for a living eventually he/she is going to work very hard.
My favorite line to my kids is, “They call it work. They don’t call it fun”
I think you and I come from the same philosophy buy I am a decade older than you.
I am a bit more cynical and you are a bit more tolerant.
I was kidding John. We are all high achievers here. Mostly physicians interested in finance.
That being said, all people are not cut out for medicine though; whether it is due to interest or acumen. That is why something like 80% drop out of pre-med.
Your assumption is that running a you tube channel or other media company (for instance the White Coat Investor blog) is not work. My point is that a person will pursue something more fully and work hard if they are passionate about it. If that is medicine, then great. If it is you tube, then fine. Just make sure they are the best you tuber out there.
My point is that we should raise our kids to pursue their passions fully and work hard. They also should learn that the more work they put in now, the more doors will be open later.
I would encourage kids to pursue their passions as a side gig like WCI. I have 3 nieces the children of a 2 lawyer couple who pursued their passions. One is unemployed, one draws anime cartoons, and the third is a tattoo artist.
The fun thing about being a Youtuber or a blogger or whatever is it can easily be done on the side. If you’re successful, great, you’ve got options. If not, well, you’ve still got your day job.
I am following this with great interest because we have high school senior considering a Neurobiology major and, eventually, a career in medicine…partially due to our “nudging.” You see, he is a gifted math and science student, spends countless hours learning new skills for “fun”, is able to memorize things quickly and easily, loves to solve puzzles of all kinds, has a servant’s heart and just relates to people well. I truly believe that, because of these and other traits, he would make an excellent physician.
But…if I am being totally honest here…there is another reason for the nudging.
My father was a physician, and I witnessed the benefits of his career choice first-hand. Of course, there is the financial benefit (good schools, nice vacations, etc.) But what I am referring to are the practical benefits of having an “in” when it comes to health care. That includes knowing which Drs in town are the best when your family & friends have a serious medical issue, getting seen a little faster in the ED because a nurse recognizes you, being able to remove your kids’ stitches at the kitchen table, avoiding trips to red-med clinics on vacation or in the middle of the night because you can roughly diagnosis a problem and treat accordingly in a pinch; you get the picture.
Now that my father has been retired for almost 20 years, some of those connections/perks have faded…and I have to admit that it’s harder being just another patient.
Ultimately, becoming a physician will be because it is HIS career choice. In the meantime, we are at least encouraging job shadow opportunities, mentorships and coursework offered at school delving into the health sciences to see if medicine excites him. So far, it seems to be. For example, last semester he completed a really cool mentorship with the County Medical Examiner’s office and LOVED getting to hold a brain during an autopsy.)
But, I can’t help thinking that having another Dr in the family would be nice. Especially as I move into old age. 🙂
If he has the ability to memorize things easily then he will do great in medical school. The first 2 years are basically just memorizing and regurgitating facts.
There is definitely a benefit to being a physician. Knowing how the system works is huge but there can also be a downside. I have read that sometimes doctors are treated like they know more then patients. While this may be true in your chosen field, it is not true in the hundreds of other medical specialities. Then when it comes time to make a decision, often the treating physician expect more of a dialogue then just giving their recommendation which can leave people confused and unsatisfied.
Yes, very true. I saw that a couple of years ago when my father was hospitalized with a serious lung infection requiring surgery. (His specialty was Neurology.) The treating physicians were guys who knew my dad while he was still in practice. They spoke to him at times as if he instinctively understood all that was being discussed. MY concern, as the daughter, was that my dad DIDN’T…but was too proud to fess up. My dad also second-guessed a lot of the treatment scenarios and wanted to manage his own care. Frustrating. Makes me very thankful that my sister is his healthcare power of attorney and has to deal with his stubbornness/ego. LOL!
If your kid ends up def wanting to be a physician I would recommend avoiding majoring in biology. There are so many useless classes and medical schools don’t care about your major. I’d recommend psychology or neuroscience if they Def are interested in the brain. Psychology major is also generally easier than bio and will lead to a higher gpa, just make sure they get A’s in the med school pre reqs.
I think being a business or finance or engineering major would have been super beneficial to me because I will never have a chance to be exposed to something so different than science unless I study on my own or pursue an MBA.
Yea, I wish I’d majored in business (usefulness) or history (interest) instead of molecular biology. When I got to the senior year classes (pippeting crap from one test tube to another) I realized that wasn’t going to be a good back-up plan for me. Luckily didn’t need it.
I am the only one in my extended family, or even amongst my friends parents that is going to become a physician. I am starting school in August and have been working for the past year full time as a medical assistant for a physiatry/ pain management clinic. They all seem to be pretty happy due to lack of call which requires them to leave their home.
I know that medicine is my calling, but even now I’ve had hard days dealing with insurance companies requiring prior auths for meds and tests and trying to obtain records from large bureaucratic academic facilities. I know we are lucky to be in medicine though because when I said bye to my patients, it was truly a sad experience and I will truly miss most of them. I really think it is a priviledge to get to know so many people and be there for them in a time of need. Not too many jobs allow you to do that and provide you with a good living.
I really hope I don’t become jaded after this next decade of training. Im happy I’ve actually experienced patient care and can keep it in mind during all the hard times I will face.
P.s. My whole family is super proud I’m going into medicine; most people on the outside think physicians have it so good.
Congrats Strider. It is a big deal to be the first in the family and truly an honor.
The best part of my day is interacting with kind, interesting people. The opposite is also true with difficult interactions leaving a bad taste in my mouth. As the years progress and you have built relationships with your patients, they become both friends and patients. You get to know their families. At my old job one of my patients invited my wife and I to her 70th birthday party. It was awesome.
You said, “Now I continue to try and be positive with him about all my daily interactions, including doctoring.”
Having a sunny outlook can be good, though it’s also important to give kids a accurate idea of our jobs so they can make more informed decisions with realistic expectations. If they get pros and cons of other jobs but only pros of medicine, they’re setting themselves up to be mightily disappointed.
Of course, the conversation will change as your child grows from a toddler to a teenager, but I think honesty is better than rosy half-truths.
Very very true. A realistic view of most things in life becomes important as they become teenagers. Particularly in the setting of access to so much information out there.
I am trying to maintain a positive attitude in most aspects of my life now so that the “sunny disposition” will be modeled for my son.
Under “freedom to choose” you said you would encourage a call-light field like derm or allergy. My dad is EM and pushed pretty hard for me to go into derm or radiology. You can see from my screen name how well that worked out.
It comes down to passion at the end. I was steered into cardiology by the fellows I met in medical school. Plus after reading the Happy Philosopher’s work day post last week, I am less inclined to push for radiology. Interestingly my dad is a radiologist and always recommend I go into a field where I talk to patients more regularly.
A tough debate to be sure – Should our kids go into medicine?
The bottom line for me is that medicine is a high paying job that lets you HELP people. How many other jobs do that? Very few, at least out of the professions that your high school guidance counselor will tell you about. Sure, there are niche jobs that people create and do well in such as creating an App that changes the world, but these are much harder to uncover. Medicine currently gives smart, hard workers a proven path to a stable, well paid profession.
My worry for my kids is what we have seen over the last couple of decades, – the decline in being well paid (given the high debt load and declining reimbursements), the increasing work load (EMR), and the decreasing respect given the profession (doctors in the 70’s were akin to gods, not necessarily a good thing). Like DDD says, these things take their toll. What will this be like in 20 yrs when my kids are ready for med school? Doubtful it will get better. At some point, the negatives may outweigh the rewards, and this point may very well come in the next 20 yrs.
When you consider that going into a field like technology can easily provide a $200k salary nowadays with a 4 yr degree, from a financial aspect only, medicine is looking less and less attractive. I realize this is not the only reason to go into medicine, but I know everyone on this site is cognizant of the impact of finances on our lives.
Hi EJ, great points here. I grew up in a household of physicians. I really did not know much about other professions. I accompanied my parents at times going on rounds and just hung out in their clinics. When I was accepted in medical school, my older sister discouraged me from continuing. I was confused and baffled. Your cons were her main points. I do get frustrated, tired, guilty but I agree with stability and mobility. Having moved across the world to practice medicine, I know the advantage of mobility. Fortunately, I married a finance guy with his own business. My kids see different fields. I hope to give them choices and guide them to a profession that they will like (not necessarily love) that will give them financial stability. My husband and I are in the same page to keep separate hobbies and profession. Most of the time, hobbies do not pay well.
My brother and sister in law are in tech. They have both done very well for themselves (started 2 successful companies) and make well over what I do based on equity. Their salaries remain lower than mine and my brother-in-law does point that out.
Medicine is a great way to earn an income. My likelihood of retiring comfortably with a high net wort at 60 is higher then his. His likelihood of retiring at 45 with a very high net worth is higher then mine. It is a risk-reward balance. Medicine is a stable way to make a lot of money.
That being said, his employees easily make in the 100-200K range depending on the job with a 4 year degree. If you start banking that from age 22 you will probably do well. Investment firms are a bit more painful then tech as people typically are at the bottom in the begging (errand boy/girl) .
I would encourage my kids to explore whatever interests them AND offers solid career prospects, and I’m not at all opposed to them pursuing blue-collar work or a non-traditional degree. However, depending what happens with medicine over the coming years, I certainly wouldn’t discourage them, and possibly even nudge them to medicine. Sure it can be challenging and a long process (we’d help them with tuition to avoid debt), but the career prospects are almost always promising with the potential for good pay and, if you do things right, a pretty good work-life balance. Add to that the high societal value that I believe physicians have and being able to legitimately help people and it can make for a very rewarding life. I believe that most doctors actually enjoy their work in it’s truest form, and that’s why many practice until very old age. All these attributes can’t be said for most jobs out there, imo. My spouse’s parents were in medicine and strongly discouraged her going into medicine, she ended up in engineering but finds the work boring and unfulfilling. She’s very well informed about the field of medicine and with what I do, and she regrets not pursuing the field herself.
I actually have a colleague who went into engineering for 3 years and realized it would not be fulfilling for him. He then went to medical school and now really loves what he does. He is passionate about his job.
I do wonder if those who had other jobs (as opposed to going straight through training) before medicine appreciate the career more.
I know trying to actually make money blogging does make me appreciate many aspects of medicine more. “All I have to do is go talk to some people and examine them and do a procedure or two? Sign me up!”
I have a lot of days when I put in 6 hours on WCI stuff before going in for an 8 hour shift and the shift is far less stressful for me (despite drug-seekers, codes etc). Like these last couple of months I’ve been working on a lot of details for the upcoming WCI conference. I can tell you this- if my job were only arranging CME conferences I would hate it.
Completely agree. I worked a few years prior to med school which I think has given me a better perspective as compared to some of my colleagues who went straight through. Additionally, having a spouse outside of medicine helps keep me in check when I start complaining and whining about things.
My kid can be any kind of doctor he wants to be. That is, any kind of medical doctor he wants to be.
It’s one of the only fields where you can make it to the goal line by just your own effort. You don’t have to network endlessly, move all around the country, wait for that big break or compete for that big promotion (and another, and another), take on massive risk, think of something nobody ever else thought of before, be some physical freak of nature, have a bunch of employees, you name it.
If he ultimately decides on something else that’s fine, but I want him to know he has the ability to be a doc if he wants to.
And now you see why everyone wants to be an orthodontist. Low on the negatives and high on the perks.
One of the biggest challenges is the artificial scarcity. I’m lucky I was selected to enter an orthodontic program – it was a HUGE gamble and I could have been stuck as a dentist if I hadn’t matched. My guess is it’s the same with Derm and Opthamology, right? Wages for those should be lower due to the demand, but we have created artificial scarcity by limiting the number of training spots. I wonder if that will ever change. We have seem MANY more training spots open for orthodontics in the last 10 years and braces prices are falling and our ridiculous profit margins are shrinking.
Fantastic article! It’s nice to read a piece with a balanced take on whether your children should become doctors, rather than the kneejerk “Medicine’s going to hell” you see elsewhere.
Thanks Amphora. As they say, there are 2 sides to every story…including the idea that “Medicine’s going to hell!”.
I’m just one doctor in a family chock full of them. I certainly received some pressure to pursue medicine.
I ultimately did go that route, but it wasn’t a quick or easy decision, and not something I chose as a direct result of parental pressure (that probably pushed me away from it initially). My father is a physician and worked (and still works) ungodly hours. I simply couldn’t manage his work hours without a different outlook on life and family dynamic, but it’s worked for him.
When I did choose to go into medicine, I didn’t have his lifestyle on my mind, as I already knew there were plenty of options. While there are other jobs I could have enjoyed, I’m not sure I was imaginative enough when making those decisions in college to figure them out. Nor is there a guarantee I would’ve succeeded (doing something entrepreneurial).
I’m satisfied w/my decision. I won’t push my kids INTO medicine, but I think making them aware of the benefits (and cons) is a must, and making them apply that to their own choices is important. The financial stability, job flexibility, and ability to enjoy/tailor your job is somewhat unique to medicine.
I went to an expensive, private high school, and many of those who weren’t destined to receive family money (if I have any coming my way, no one has told me) ended up at fancy universities and very low paying jobs. Best as I can tell they are content with their lives, but the stress of not knowing where the next job/gig is coming from isn’t one I want to deal with.
All the more reason to pursue FIRE, I suppose. 🙂
Couple of thoughts :
1) great article and one my spouse and I talk about sometimes (fellow doc)
2) bought a yoga ball and two stand up desks (one for work was IKEA $150 & treadmill desk at home was a $400 crank up desk and a $1k walking treadmill) to beat the whole “sitting on butt all day” thing.
3) I would recommend Rad Onc ????
4) totally agree on the friendships. I met my future spouse by sharing cadavers in Gross ????
5) working part time is a huge burnout reliever! Best thing I ever did! (Tough decision to get there though) (& Tx to Mr MM and Frugalwoods blog for making this possible! And WCI of course)
6) even though I only work one day a week now, I am forever grateful for my medical education – it’s made being a parent so much easier! (We only go when they either need the ER or antibiotics)
7) after reading “Drive” by Dan Pink (mentioned in Cal Newport’s book about being so good they can’t ignore you) I have decided to not push academics, etc. I copied the parenting part of the book because I.am.clueless. as a parent.
Dr Silvers. What do you do that you managed to work 1 day a week? I think part time work is the key to physician wellness. I am currently making plans to go to 60%. It may be 2 or 5 years from now, but the path is being laid out.
I am the only HPM fellowship trained doc (that I know of) in the densely packed peninsula I live on – so with an awesome ARNP’s help, I run a small Pall. care clinic which handles the hardest stage 4 cancer pain (in other words, I have a high percentage of patients with addiction issues who are dying) for a government entity. I work a 10.5 hour day. There’s only 140 fellowship spots nation wide per year: this is where I refer you to the Cal Newport book referenced above 😉 A lot of HPM grads end up part time – we are a somewhat frugal bunch who like to travel. You would qualify for the fellowship. (I know it’s hard to be a part-time cards-one of my friends can’t find part-time at all-only FT)
PS: since it’s gov’t, I get bene’s. Paycheck is laughable after health insurance for fam and 401k taken out but I do a job others either don’t want to do or don’t have the training to do and these people still need pain controlled.
My good friend is a palliative care doc and your points hold true. He is frugal and loves to travel. Plus he works part time…I guess like minds stick together.
Here is what I would like to throw into the conversation:
1. There are very few careers out there that produce an upper middle class income that are not very stressful.
2. What else is a person who has a talent for science and math as well as an interest in helping people supposed to do for a career?
Our story:
At the time that my husband earned his MBA, I left medical school during my third year to provide a consistent parent at home with our newborn son, as well as to stop accruing student debt. My husband’s career has been extremely demanding of his time and energy, and has not provided the high level of job security enjoyed by most physicians. He has never been unemployed, but there is always a “move up or move out” mentality in the world of business, and with a family in tow, it is not so easy to relocate in order to climb that corporate ladder. Add in the high level of domestic and international travel on his calendar (think every week of the summer except July 4 week and one week in August), and that life as a physician is starting to look pretty sweet!
Our son is 16 now, entering his senior year in high school, and is interested in a career in medicine. Of course we have talked about the importance of limiting his student loan debt during medical school, and that being an absolute must in order to give him the freedom to practice his profession in a positive frame of mind, allowing for the option of choosing less work for less pay and a higher quality of life. I don’t discount the stressful life of the physician, but I don’t see that there are a whole lot of better options out there for a kid whose talents, drive and interests lead him to a profession in the life sciences.
What do you think? What other careers are out there for folks whose abilities and personality pair well with medicine? In what new directions is medicine going over the next 20 years? Will there be new specialties that marry technology and traditional medicine? What sort of pre-medical education should one get now to give himself/herself the most options later? Which physicians are happiest and why? Which specialties will become outsourced or obsolete? I would love your input so that I can better guide my son to a fulfilling, stable, and at least reasonably well-compensated career that he loves, and a life that he can both enjoy and be proud of.
Thanks for sharing your story. You did not mention it, but did you end up going back to medicine?
I do agree. There are not many jobs out there in the life sciences that pay as much and have the stability. I have family and friends who are researchers for pharma. Most have PhDs and there jobs seem less interesting to me. More travel. Less security. More office politics. That does not appeal to me.
Who knows what medicine will be like in 20 years. I doubt our forefathers/mothers saw the prevalence of EMR and how it challenges and improves our daily lives. Plus with changes in both Medicare and Medicaid how will other insurers change and what will this mean for patient care?
No, I did not end up going back to medicine, primarily because I had two more kids! We felt (and I do believe we were right in thinking this) that we could only handle one demanding job within our family if we wanted to avoid massive stress. I felt like I “took one for the team” in giving up my career goals, but I also feel like my life has been enriched in other ways being a stay at home mom and I am proud to have supported my husband and children well. I do advise my son and daughters to put off fatherhood/motherhood until they have reached a point in their careers that they can take their foot off the pedal a bit, if that is what works for them and their families. I also tell my kids that I will be there to support them if they need an extra set of arms in order to get through a long educational path. Medicine is a long haul, but I think it can be personally and financially rewarding if done mindfully, and as one commenter noted, it is a stable career that you can earn via your own merits. Loads of appeal!
My wife also left her PhD degree to raise our son, so I get it. She is definitely happier and more enriched currently raising him (although it can be exhausting!).
No, I did not end up going back to medicine, primarily because I had two more kids! We felt (and I do believe we were right in thinking this) that we could only handle one demanding job within our family if we wanted to avoid massive stress. I felt like I “took one for the team” in giving up my career goals, but I also feel like my life has been enriched in other ways being a stay at home mom and I am proud to have supported my husband and children well. I do advise my son and daughters to put off fatherhood/motherhood until they have reached a point in their careers that they can take their foot off the pedal a bit, if that is what works for them and their families. I also tell my kids that I will be there to support them if they need an extra set of arms in order to get through a long educational path. Medicine is a long haul, but I think it can be personally and financially rewarding if done mindfully, and as one commenter noted, it is a stable career that you can earn via your own merits.
You’ve made a great point about other careers being stressful in their own way. Our friend group includes high-income earners in a wide-range of fields (medicine, law, retail, finance, tech and so on.) Each believes their job is more stressful and demanding than the others. : )
However, when it comes right down to it, medicine offers the greatest longevity. The kids were watching some zombie apocalypse movie last night…and it occurred to me that if society collapses, people won’t need tech support, investment advice, fashion trend predictions, or someone to mediate their disputes. They will, however, need a doctor. LOL!
No don’t encourage going into medicine.
Encourage going into dentistry, orthodontics, endontics or oral surgery.
The worst student loan stories I have heard have by far and away come from dental students. The dental tuition at my state school is literally double the cost of medical school.
Sure, some sub specialty dentists like orthodontists kill it but how many dental students become an orthodontist or an Endodontist?
I would have to agree with that. Going to dental school on borrowed money is a huge financial risk these days.
or brewing beer in Boston, Mass.
This guy loves beer! I have seen you mention beer out of nowhere at least 3-4 separate times lmao.
You should go to Oktoberfest as soon as you retire, or sooner.