I had an interesting conversation with a physician a while back, one who spends a lot of time giving advice to pre-medical students. He wanted to know what should be said to pre-meds who were worried about how expensive going to medical school is these days. I told him those pre-meds were right to worry. That's not because EVERY physician is going to be in trouble. Most are not given current physician incomes and current tuition levels. But the number of physicians in trouble due to a terrible debt to income ratio is is definitely climbing. I would guess the number was <5% 20 years ago, but now is probably in the 10-25% range. The percentage is far higher for some of the other high income professionals such as dentists, veterinarians, and attorneys. However, the average physician is making something in the low 200s and the average debt of students leaving medical school this year is also in the low 200s. Even by the time that average doc finishes residency, her debt should still be less than $300K, which is only 1.5X gross income and should be manageable with some smart financial decision-making.
Does Medical School Still Make Financial Sense?
The problem is that is an average. On one side is the guy whose dad paid a bunch of his tuition and whose wife worked while he was in school and so he got out only owing $50K. On the other side is the lady who took her stay-at-home husband and two kids to New York City to attend Columbia and paid for all of it with borrowed money. She may very well finish residency owing $600K. If she chooses family practice or pediatrics, and especially if she stays in New York to practice, she is in serious trouble with a debt to income ratio of more than 3X.
Try to Get Out of Undergrad Debt Free
The physician made two other comments I found interesting. The first was a comment referring to undergraduate debt. It reminded me that not everyone is aware that you can get a good undergraduate education without any debt at all. Since you can do it without debt, why would you do it with debt? If you're going to rack up $200K+ just going to medical school, you certainly don't want to start with $100K+ from undergraduate.
Dragging Out Student Loans?
The second comment was basically “What's wrong with just paying your student loans off over 30 years?” Wow! Can you imagine being 60 years old and STILL owing student loans? How depressing would that be? It's so depressing that I actually recently refused to announce to my readers that one of my advertisers had a new 20 year student loan refinancing product. If medicine does not pay well enough to pay off your loans before you qualify for Social Security, maybe it is time for a different career choice. Student loans don't go away in bankruptcy and if you go into retirement with them, you will discover that your Social Security checks will be garnished to pay them. Don't believe me? Would you believe the Social Security Administration Handbook?
“If you have any unpaid Federal taxes, the Internal Revenue Service can levy your Social Security benefits. Your benefits can also be garnished in order to collect unpaid child support and or alimony. Your benefits may also be garnished in response to Court Ordered Victims Restitution. SSI payments cannot be levied or garnished. Treasury’s Financial Management Service can also offset, or reduce, your Social Security benefits to collect delinquent debts owed to other Federal agencies, such as student loans owed to the Department of Education.”
Now, if you graduated in 2003 with me and refinanced your loans at 0.9%, then fine, drag them out over 30 years. I don't care. Mathematically you'll almost surely come out ahead given that you're borrowing at less than the targeted rate of inflation. But ask current medical students and residents and young attendings what their rate is. The answer is likely something between 5.5% and 10%. There's a good chance paying that down is their best available investment, at least on a guaranteed basis. Even most people with a good debt to income ratio and credit who have refinanced their student loans are only getting into the 3-4% range for a five year fixed loan. Given that the best guaranteed investment out there is only paying something like 2% these days, 3-4% isn't too bad.
Beware of “Future You”
But the main problem with borrowing money for 30 years is that it limits your freedom. In reality, you're not borrowing from a bank or even the federal government or its taxpayers. You are borrowing from a nice fellow that I like to call “Future You.” He seems really nice when you're 25. He'll lend you all kinds of money. Then at 35, he seems a little grumpy. By 45 he's an angry neighbor throwing bits of hamburger stuffed with acetaminophen and warfarin over your fence. Do you really want to see what he's like at 55?
You're really not done with your medical education until you've paid for it. I assure you that you WILL regret borrowing more than you had to as a medical student. There is a good chance you will want to take a less lucrative job, go part-time, or even retire early at some point and a huge student loan burden would prevent that. So do yourself a favor and pay off that debt within 5 years of graduation. Barring some extreme situation (which will require an extreme solution) there is no reason the vast majority of doctors cannot do that if they'll live like a resident for a few years after residency. Here's what the numbers look like with some basic assumptions (living on $50K a year until debt is gone, effective tax rate of 25%, 3% refinanced student loan rate.)
Doctor with $180K income
- $100K Debt: 15 months
- $200K Debt: 29 months
- $300K Debt: 44 months
- $400K Debt: 60 months
Doctor with $250K income
- $100K Debt: 9 months
- $200K Debt: 18 months
- $300K Debt: 28 months
- $400K Debt: 38 months
Doctor with $400K income
- $100K Debt: 5 months
- $200K Debt: 10 months
- $300K Debt: 15 months
- $400K Debt: 20 months
None of that looks too bad, right? I mean, the worst case scenario (the doctor with the low income and high debt) is still out of debt within 5 years. So what happens? Why are so many doctors still in debt who are a decade or more out of training? Several reasons and the problem usually isn't that they just did one of these things. They usually did two or more of them.
- Didn't live like a resident. In fact, they often just made the minimum payments on their loans as an attending.
- Never refinanced the student loans.
- Racked up huge debts.
- Chose a low paying specialty.
In addition, given how low the pay-off time is for many of these hypothetical docs (most under 3 years and many under 2 years), some will reasonably choose to slow down the process slightly by giving themselves a little raise after residency, directing some of their wealth building money toward maxing out retirement accounts (which further lowers their tax bill) or saving up a little down payment for a house. As you can see, most doctors can still do all of that stuff and still be done with medical school debt by 5 years out.
So, what advice can be given to the pre-med student? I think it can safely be said that, yes, becoming a doctor, even if you have to borrow to attend medical school, still makes financial sense. BUT, you will have to live like a resident for a few years after residency. The more poor financial decisions you made, the longer you will have to live like a resident.
Math and Behavior
Let me give you a tip if you haven't yet figured this out already. Be assured that I am fully aware that the mathematically correct thing to do is often to borrow at low interest rates and invest the money. But if you want to FEEL wealthy (in addition to being wealthy), I would recommend a different approach. Try to maximize the amount of disposable income you have each month. How do you do that? By eliminating fixed expenses one by one as rapidly as you can. You wouldn't believe how awesome a life you can have while spending just $100K-150K when you have minimized your fixed expenses. No student loan payments. No car payments. No mortgage payments. No time-share payments. No second house payments. No private school payments. Eventually not even life and disability insurance payments. After covering property taxes, paying for some basic utilities and insurance, and putting food in the fridge, you might still have $10K a month to do whatever you want with. You can invest it with some pretty awesome results. You can give it away and make a huge difference in the lives of others. You can spend it and have a very good time. And when the next month rolls around, there's another $10K you get to decide what to do with. It's a pretty good life. And it's yours for the taking. The only cost is living like a resident for a few short years after training when you really don't even know what you're missing yet (but it rhymes with jelly-peeing.)
What do you think? Do you think it's okay to borrow for undergraduate? How much? Do you think borrowing to pay for a medical education still makes sense? Why or why not? Do you think it's okay to drag student loans out for 30 years? Why or why not? Comment below!
The right math here is to think about an ROI/IRR on your investment in med school. It doesn’t really matter that much if your spouse works while you are in school, so you graduate with less or no debt, or if you finance the whole thing and pay it back over 10 years after med school. In either case you are paying a certain amount of money with the expectation of earning a larger income over a number of years. To figure out if the investment in education is “worth it” you just need to run an IRR using the cash outflows from paying for tuition or paying back debt with interest and the cash inflows on the delta between the income you would make without the degree and the income you expect to make with it.
Right, but when you’re married to someone making $350K+, you can go to dental school even if it doesn’t necessarily make economic sense just for you. It can be a bit of a luxury to study/do what you love.
Maybe, but you can use that argument for the bigger house, new car, etc.
I don’t have a problem wtih a bigger house, new car, or sending your wife to dental school if you can afford it.
I doubt anyone regrets paying off their medical school debt “too quickly”. Kick the loans to the curb as soon as possible. There will be plenty of time to invest after the loans are paid off.
Haven’t met anyone yet.
One other angle is making sure to maximize income
Depending on your specialty, there maybe moonlighting opportunities during residency and fellowship and the money can help pay down debt or pad retirement savings (what a great deal Roths are during those low-earning years.
Many new attending may work many less hours than they did as a resident/fellow and picking up some extra shifts/call or sideline work can really help as well
My take is that it’s reasonable for undergraduates who qualify to take out Federal loans (such as Federal subsidized, Federal unsubsidized, and Perkins loans). The total for 4 years of undergraduate is limited to under $35-$40,000, and there are opportunities for forgiveness. (Most professional families will not qualify, but there are special circumstances, such as unmarried couples where the parent has low income, where they are an option.)
The loans to avoid if at all possible are parent PLUS loans and private student loans, which often carry high interest rates/poorer terms, and can result in much higher levels of undergraduate debt.
Are you seriously arguing that it is impossible or even very difficult to graduate from an undergraduate institution debt-free? Particularly for the child of a high-income professional? If so, maybe we can do a Pro-Con about it. I think it is VERY doable and see it done all the time.
The main reasons people don’t do it are:
1) Poor school choice
2) Unwillingness to work during school/summers
3) Parental inability to save for college
Pay for med school without debt? Better have a very wealthy parent or be willing to sign-up with someone like the military, PHS, IHS etc. Pay for undergraduate without debt? It’ll take some smart choices and hard work, but no wealthy parent or signing years of your life away required.
I don’t want my kids to take out loans to pay for college. They then start a career or grad school with a big burden. They can save, work, go to public schools, get scholarships, and accept help from family to pay the costs.
I went Ivy league (college not med) for less than some paid for State back in the day because my parents were pretty bad at finance. (Math prof! Go figure.) I figure MY kids won’t have that chance so saved enough so they too could opt for an Ivy despite no financial aid. Thanks to GI Bill/ yellow ribbon and tougher admission hurdles (I wouldn’t get in nowadays either) we dodged that expense anyway. Tried very hard not to agree with child who argued she ought to choose one school over the other to save us money. But presented OTHER reasons it was a better choice, hopefully not influenced by the cost.
Great discussion. Thanks for the post.
Heading to fellowship next week. My specialty pays $250k+ depending on what type of practice and where, with all the standard plus’s and minus’s of private vs hospital employment. I’m sitting at about $280 in student loans. Other than that we have a $26k car loan. My wife works part time and makes about $45k and has been working on her Roth for a while.
The good news we are selling our med school/residency home and walking away with about $100k! Crazy, right?!
So, what to do with the extra cash? We have about $40k in cash from moonlighting as an emergency fund already.
I have a WCI angel on one shoulder saying to take that money and immediately pay off $100k in student debt. I have a devil on my other shoulder saying to pay $50k off from two out of the three loan holders, save $30k for possible down payment on a future home and use the rest to get a new used car for the wife.
What do you guys/gals think? Should I keep some extra cash for future home? Plan on a doctor loan and burn the debt down? Buy a King Ranch F150?
Thanks.
Did the WCI angel say anything about the car? Like, why are you driving a more expensive car than that multi-millionaire WCI, especially since it isn’t paid for?
You can do whatever you want, but this is what I’d do:
1) Sell the car and buy something I could afford that is reasonable for my income.
2) Max out Roth IRAs and Roth 401(k)/403(b)s available to me.
3) Decide if I’ll be going for PSLF. If the answer is no, send the rest to the lender. If the answer is yes or maybe, invest it in any other tax-protected account, use it for a downpayment fund, or invest it in taxable.
Good luck with your decision!
If Im going to make 255k in a low cost market what is a reasonable rate of savings or a fiscally prudent amount to save each year?
My wife and I are considering 100k. Is this overkill?
To be more complete. I am using thr pslf loan forgiveness and expect to pay 18k each year. I have 180k in debt. My wife does not work
20% * $255 = $51K for retirement + whatever you need for college, down payments, new cars, vacations, and loan payback. I think frontloading your savings a bit is a good idea, so I certainly wouldn’t think $100K is overkill in the beginning, but if you keep up a 39% savings rate just for retirement for 30 years, that might be overkill.
It is overkill in the sense that it isn’t required.
It is not overkill in the sense that it will bring you to FI faster. Personally, we choose to live on the minimum for a reasonable life and have all of the rest invested immediately. Things can change over time. Medicine may pay less. You or a family member may have changing health or changing interests. You could become burned out. All of these unexpected changes can be handled easier if you are FI. Consider the Pay Yourself Last method.
http://www.physicianonfire.com/last/