By Dr. Andrew Ramsey, Guest Writer
Like many of you, I started reading The White Coat Investor early in my journey through the medical pipeline. Back then, WCI had a section called “The Basics.” From it, I built a foundation of financial knowledge that would serve me well through medical school, residency, and attendinghood. “The Basics” has since morphed into an empire of financial education targeted to high-earning professionals, but the fundamentals therein are sound and timeless.
What I didn’t learn from “The Basics” was what I’d do when I actually reached my financial goals. “The Basics” sent me off on a powerful financial journey. However, the satisfaction I derived from the quest for financial success was as intoxicating as it was self-aggrandizing and misleading. The great meaning I was to eventually find in life lay elsewhere.
Joining the FIRE Movement
Early on, I became interested in the Financial Independence/Retire Early (FIRE) movement. I loved the idea of the freedom it promised. I pursued it vigilantly.
I’ve never struggled to reach goals when I set my mind to it so I took the financial knowledge I learned from WCI, paid off my loans quickly, lived like a resident for several years, and invested widely and responsibly. I rose through emergency medicine’s professional ranks and became a medical director. Then, I diversified my career by shifting to part-time clinical work and took on consulting, expert witnessing, and real estate ventures. Everything was on track for FIRE, and everything should have felt wonderful.
Unfortunately, I found myself feeling more trapped and distraught than I’d ever been in my life.
I had decided to pursue medicine while I was enlisted in the Navy. After discharge, as soon as I could, I enrolled at university and took a strenuous course load, allowing me to graduate in three years and then complete a master’s degree in my fourth year. I was already a few years behind those who’d pursued a “traditional” life track, and my need to catch up with them was strong. I planned to be a neurosurgeon but changed my mind (like most medical students who are sure about what specialty they want to pursue) to emergency medicine. Despite the shift to a “less competitive specialty,” I spent my extracurricular time in medical school working on a number of ventures and side projects that built a nice-looking resume that would help me reach higher peaks. Then, because I had great training in residency, I could moonlight for two years in small emergency departments before starting officially as an attending, helping to pave my path to FIRE by digging out from student loans early. Every step along the way, I was working harder and faster, always pursuing bigger goals. Throughout, I was running.
Suddenly, when I reached the point where I didn’t have anywhere else to go, anywhere to climb, anything else to achieve, I ran off a cliff. I’d been preoccupied with my journey to medical school, my chosen residency, leadership, and FIRE. However, it became clear that the journey to new heights had become the meaning in my life. I was still working clinically, but I no longer had professional goals. I’d reached everything I’d set out to achieve financially. Now, all that was left was a void that FIRE didn’t fill.
Unlike Dr. Jim Dahle, I didn’t have grand plans for rock climbing and jet skiing. I enjoy both and spent a significant amount of time rock climbing in medical school, but post-FIRE recreation had never been the major mental focus for me. I’d meticulously mapped out my plan to reach FIRE but not my plans for after it. I assumed the recreation part would just fall into place. Who wouldn’t want more freedom? Who wouldn’t love to have all the time in the world to pursue everything?
More information here:
Life After Financial Independence: Two Perspectives
What Happens After You FIRE?
Freedom as a concept is great. Many people, like Dr. Dahle, have concrete lists of things they want to spend their time doing. However, the more fluid pastimes—like spending time with friends and family, traveling, and volunteering—don’t conform as well to FIRE. For example, your friends and family will often be working when you’re not, traveling will be more fun with others (and is significantly more challenging with young children), and volunteering will be more difficult than it seems like it should be (especially if you have a lot of time to dedicate to it).
Consequently, lists you made pre-FIRE may not conform to the realities of life after FIRE. And you may not have spent much time thinking through your post-FIRE plans while pre-FIRE—because you were working at full capacity and because FIRE is such a mentally foreign and untouchable concept before you get there that it’s nearly impossible to imagine. So, you may find yourself without lists of things to do, stuck within the freedom created by FIRE, trapped feeling like you have nothing else to do. Freedom without purpose can feel like torture.
FIRE is difficult to talk about in polite conversation; it’s not something most hardworking people will ever achieve. FIRE provokes envy (reasonably so, considering the significant inequalities of our world) and ire. Further, we’re taught early on not to talk frankly about money. Unfortunately, that leaves a lot of unhappy, hardworking, high-earning, financially savvy professionals stuck without camaraderie or support or any way to work through their feelings. Many suffer in silence from depression or alcohol/drug abuse. Others return to work (if they ever left it) and suffer through crushing hours as they watch their bank accounts grow to astronomical numbers, accruing far more money than they’ll ever spend.
More information here:
A New Way of Doing Business (and Saving Tons of Money) in My Retirement
Is FIRE the Right Goal?
FIRE is an empty goal. Money is itself devoid of purpose. A meaningful and satisfying life is the goal, and FIRE is one tool to achieve it. What that life will be is different for everyone and what you do with your money is up to you. However, thinking carefully about the meaning and purpose of your life post-FIRE while you work toward FIRE is critically important. For me, a little more time spent considering “The Basics” of how I wanted to spend my time every day after reaching FIRE, planting the seeds for that meaningful life beyond finances while still savoring the journey to FIRE, would have paid significant dividends.
Finding Purpose Post-FIRE
If you are suffering after achieving everything you set out to achieve, please know you are not alone. Determining what to do with your life (post-FIRE or anytime) is one of the hardest questions any of us will ever try to answer.
I spend a lot of time now thinking about how I can live a life where I add value. Adding value to situations is meaningful to me, and I’m always looking for more ways to do it. Because of FIRE, I’m able to cherish time being present with my family and friends while looking for ways to spend more time with interesting people. I wish there were more easy opportunities built into a rigid employment system for those of us with highly flexible schedules, but there are ample opportunities now for me to work on a variety of projects until the perfect one comes along.
In many ways, the search has become the meaning. In the end, the freedom of FIRE can create a place of balance where personal and professional goals can finally align.
If you're planning to FIRE, have you thought about your plans for what you'll do when you actually get there? How do you think you'll find meaning in your life after retirement? Will volunteering and/or rock climbing all day be enough? Comment below!
[Editor's Note: Andrew Ramsey, MD, MPH, is an emergency physician who writes about wellness after FIRE at LiveFIREbetter.com. This article was submitted and approved according to our Guest Post Policy. We have no financial relationship.]
FIRE could be an empty goal if you take it in isolation, but if nothing else it’s an important stepping stone on the way to other goals. You could say getting good grades, getting into and graduating medical school and residency, building a practice and increasing personal productivity are all empty goals if they don’t give your life purpose.
I guess I would see it that in a way setting goals and reaching them as their own reward. People should be proud they reached FIRE since it likely reflects personal attributes worthy of admiration.
I get that if people don’t have plans for a fulfilling life post-FIRE you could wonder what was the point of it all, but that would be another goal people should work and plan for, not something that negates reaching FIRE.
Thanks for being so honest. It seems to me that the problem you address has to do with the purpose of FIRE.
Is FIRE the actual goal and purpose? If so you are right, after acquiring FIRE you will need to find a new purpose, or just keep raising the target.
Or is FIRE a tool that allows you to pursue your goals and purposes? I heard someone recently compare what we do going thru our education, training, and employment as a game. There are rules and levels of achievement. There may be rules we don’t like, goals in the game we disagree with.
Once we are FI, we can keep playing by other people’s games/rules, or we can play a game that we determine the rules. Hopefully we have been focusing or what that game might look like as we go along.
Before I retired, I kind of hoped that once I had the choice that I wouldn’t want to stop practicing. But ultimately I didn’t want to spend 15 more years in a ‘game’ that wasn’t me.
Oh man, I know what you mean by other people’s rules. With the CMS documentation requirement changes combined with having to learn a 2nd EMR to work literally just two shifts at a FSED, I’ve been feeling like I’m playing by other people’s rules a lot in the last couple of months.
Great article and perspective. We have always been conscientious about saving for retirement, and modest but not overly frugal. We wound up being FI at age 57 (not too early compared to many) but after a 3 month false start, it became obvious that I really love doing what I do. I love structure, purpose, camaraderie, teaching residents, and serving my “tribe” (veterans). I work part time now at the VA hospital, and look forward equally to days off and my days on.
FI is a great tool and leads to a relaxed life, but having a job that you don’t want to retire from (yet) is a huge blessing.
Yea, it’s a weird feeling being ready to retire before you actually want to retire.
I wrote an essay below that you summed up much better. I couldn’t agree more. I left out “teaching” … that adds a lot to the “purpose.”
I want to become FI not because I want to RE, but because I’ll have the power to say FU and quit if needed.
Great post. I recognize the feeling of constantly working to get the next peak because that’s what you’ve always done. Eventually I came to realize I’d been on the same path so long that I’d lost my way. When I hit that wall I started to look at FIRE in a very different way. I knew I was on a path to financial independence and it would be virtually inevitable, based on our progress and established financial habits as a couple, that we would achieve FIRE – even if we steeply decreased our incomes, our investments would continue to grow. It’s easy to plot your savings, expected returns, etc and see where you’re likely to wind up financially. Realizing we were on a path of financial discipline to achieve FIRE gave me the ability to step back and reconsider my goals early in my career. It’s allowed me to achieve much more balance and I’m far happier since I’ve started focusing on what’s most important now. Someone called it “taking off the golden handcuffs”. Why wait to enjoy life when we can just choose what we enjoy now? Not “FIRE” yet but already FREE
Great post. I feel like a lot of articles recently have been focused around how to “cope” once you do reach financial independence, as it may be a lot more lonely and unsatisfying than you think. These recent posts have made me reevaluate some of the things I’m giving up to reach financial independence quicker. Maybe spending an extra 1,000 per month on something that means a lot to me is worth delaying FI for a year or two. This is a first world problem you can’t really talk to others about because they’ll think you’re ungrateful and crazy! We all need a purpose in life, and once you reach that financial independence, I feel like a lot of people may lose that purpose. Great article. I appreciate the honesty.
Well, might be coincidence. Might be from my own post-FI journey. Might be that many WCIers have been financially growing up alongside me (and POF) and now are engaged in their own post-FI journey. Not sure. Important topic to discuss here though, right alongside the Backdoor Roth IRA and whether to use a downpayment or a doctor loan etc.
We specialize in being a safe place to discuss first world problems, including this one.
Another great article! You all are on a roll lately.
I’ve spent a significant amount of time on this topic and I have been experimenting a bit with different ideas for a few years. But, I’ll skip to the end. For me anyway, it appears the answer is continuing to work 2 to 3 days a week (I don’t have kids otherwise it might be less). I need the stimulation that comes from working in a craft that I spent a long time trying to perfect. Learning a foreign language, working at a food bank, day trading stocks … even traveling … it just isn’t what I needed. You can’t just go do what (you think) everyone else would do if they retired early (exercise all day, yoga, travel the world, read books, etc.). It is empty exactly as you describe after a few months. It is also very hard to make friends that don’t get jealous of your situation. It is an endless parade of “must be nice” comments often times. Or, on the other end, I feel guilty that the people I like to spend time with are still having to work long hours. Which is admittedly weird. It was unexpected which is why I mention it. There is a constant feeling of guilt. You want what you have achieved for every kind person you interact with. I hate that the folks at my local coffee shop have to work every day instead of going out and having fun (particularly since they are young and energetic). Totally irrational of course.
Now, here is one of the other weird things that I discovered: most of the people that don’t have to work…and could go hang out all day…are horrible people (under 60 anyway). Not all of course, but many are trust fund type folks, dot com VC types, or just plain lying about their actual lifestyle. I made friends with a guy that is rolling $50 million deep. He seemed cool and pretty laid back. Him and his wife invited me and my wife to hang out on their yacht, etc. Exactly like you would visualize in a story like that. Turns out the guy is miserable (which I figured out after spending a bunch of time with him). He sold his company a few years back and is just drifting through life. Slowly starting to hate his wife because they spend every day together, spending money like a Saudi Prince, etc. Absolutely nothing brings this guy joy because nothing is unattainable. At least materially. What he is not, is an expert in a particular subject he is passionate about. You can’t just read a book or two for that. Or study for a year. It took me 20 years or so with school and work to be “an expert.” I would say competent, but you get the point. My craft opens doors to me (intellectually and otherwise) that are simply not open to him. It isn’t a money thing. I was fascinated one night after dinner when he told me he constantly feels inadequate when we are both in larger groups. He is a college drop out…you know…the kind with $50 million plus a yacht! Miserable though …. and asking ME for advice. It was very eye opening and made me feel much better about my life choices.
Anyway, for me, I just keep working a few days a week and that seems to be the right balance. I like interacting with colleagues and others in my profession. I like keeping my skills sharp (ish). I can use the extra cash for charity, an epic trip or two a year, etc. But, mostly, it is about having a purpose. And for me, I like being an “expert” in something. And I don’t want to spend 10 to 20 years “starting over” and learning an entirely new skill. I’m not sure I have the drive to do it all over again anyway. I studied hard and worked crushing hours because I was young and had no choice if I wanted to rise to the top of the profession. How the heck would one get the motivation to do that again if you didn’t have to?!
Also, I have “work” stories. Seems totally trivial. But, that is what most normal people talk about (certainly non-millionaires). Their day at work. A funny anecdote from work. Jane at work. Maybe a new development in your field that is interesting. Nobody wants to sit around and talk to someone about their next trip to Spain (or their last trip to Costa Rica). Or how much money they have in the bank. Or what they plan to buy next. It is obnoxious even when coming from someone generally kind otherwise.
That is a heck of a comment. Practically worthy of its own blog post. It encapsulates many of my own observations and fears.
Love the food bank comment. Seems silly to go volunteer 4 hours a week at the food bank when they would benefit more from me continuing to work and donating $10K to them every year instead.
I’ve experienced the emptiness you describe (it was between MS1 and MS2 for me when I was golfing every day for a couple of months.) It’s very much real and would be so much worse when it lasted for years.
Also the “must be nice” comments and the “just talking about traveling” stuff. Very much real.
I also enjoy being an expert in something. I still don’t have my blend perfect, but I’m also not ready to walk away from either medicine or WCI, despite many hassles related to both that would be nice to eliminate.
BB, excellent comment! I found myself nodding my head with every paragraph.
I’ll add one more comment I saw somewhere else–can’t remember where–from a physician, “Retire? Why would I retire? I’ve got a front row seat to the greatest show on earth!”
Arguably one of the best comments I’ve seen on this site. I agree with WCI, you should consider being a guest writer for a full blog post.
FIRE is not an empty goal, unless you failed to do it appropriately. Just like you did not become financially independent without taking many steps, retiring early also requires many steps. You are correct in pointing out retirement needs to have purpose, but you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Context: I’m 58.5 and working two ten hour days a week doing “my old job”. I also take some call and work about four long weekends a year.
Assessment: That’s plenty of “purpose”.
My purpose is my family. Not work.
It seems I am just as busy as I ever was. We are going on a vacation every other month. I swim two mornings a week. I take a yoga class with my wife. We hike in the mountains several days a week (although not as much in the winter). I write. I read…a lot. We are always fixing up the retirement home. Next up…the kitchen counter and sink.
I suppose I fully tried out “semi-Retirement” before we actually did it and that may have helped.
This past weekend, the unit where I have worked weekends for over a decade had a COVID outbreak. I was in full PPE for three of the four days…it was a uncomfortable and stressful. I was in the ER several times, and it was full of RSV and the flu. I was just hoping to not get sick.
Sounds like a nice FI blend to me.
Getting to FIRE means you can do whatever you want to do. Work full time, work part time, don’t work at all, switch careers. It gives you flexibility.
It really is this simple. Others made it to be, or mean, something else (travel, rock climbing, scuba diving, bird watching, etc.) If you’re that one dimensional that you love, or need to keep working as a doc, let’s say, Post FI is right – you can do that. For the rest of us, we can have the luxury to not do that and try other things. Being able to “not play the game” means you have won the game. If you can’t find anything to do, that’s on you. Most westerners or modern people need to work on their spiritual life, since none of this nonsense of the world will matter sooner than you think. That’s the real meaning that we all ignore, because it takes other types of efforts and of course, faith.
“If you’re that one dimensional” is a bit condescending. It could be turned around to…
“If you lack so much creativity that you can’t practice medicine and still figure out how to do everything else you want to do, well, I guess that’s your problem.”
Philosophically, if someone punches out just as soon as they have enough money to do so, it would stand to reason that what they were getting paid to do wasn’t really what they wanted to do with their life, which seems a shame.
In truth, it’s probably a continuum and everyone is at a different place on it. When I became FI I dropped my nights and cut back on shifts to about half time. So I guess I was working after midnight just for the money and half the time I was working for the money.
I had to do a double take when I saw the author! Dr. Ramsey, your insight was always thought-provoking in the emergency department when I scribed for you. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on FIRE, and I appreciated some of the topics you touched on that are not only relevant to docs approaching FIRE, but also medical students like me sprinting through this journey.
Very insightful. There is something lonely about achieving your lifelong dreams, especially if, like many of us, we were so driven that we forgot to put in the work to place our dreams into perspective, or our goal within the context of our life and relationships. “Now what?” is the question we would commonly ask, and commensurate to how consumed we were in the attaining of it, the more surprised we planned for nothing beyond it. This is very humbling.
However, that is also where there is room for rediscovery, grace, and opportunity. “Now what?” can be very disconcerting, but can also be exciting.
I think the FIRE contingent that claims the reason is merely to do “whatever they want” –though nothing in particular– is quite empty.
Especially when, like in my situation, working really isn’t keeping you from doing anything you want. I mean…I go on a trip or two every month (Jamaica and Columbia this month), coach my son’s hockey team, play on two hockey teams etc.
Now if work was keeping me from doing a lot of those things I want to do, I’d probably have a very different view.
Great points. It is indeed particular to each person.
I get very annoyed by people who say they don’t know what to do in retirement or don’t think FIRE should be a goal. I can immediately give you a list of 100 things (I’ve made one) I’d rather do than fight insurance companies, wait on peer to peers or be told we have to work more to get paid less.
Do you have to quit medicine altogether when you reach FIRE? No, especially if you still enjoy parts of it. Dr. Dahle is probably doing it right being part time. To each their own but the sooner I can get out of the rat race, the better.
“why do we get out of bed in the morning?”, other than to pee, has long been my biggest persistent question. I recommend John Vervaeke’s “awakening from the meaning crisis” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54l8_ewcOlY as a good place to start. we are social primates with some innate meaning making machinery, and it will run either automatically or with some deliberate steering. thanks for getting the conversation started andrew!
We are persons made in the image and likeness of God, who is a person like we are.
Meaning can only come from this Person.
I like the Stoics just fine, but they are just seeds on the way to the Person who is Truth.
This post seems like a humblebrag to me… FIRE is very subjective and relative to your monthly income requirement.
I would suggest adding useful content for us in the context of your FIRE lifestyle. This will help others a lot more.
Important info : how old are you and how long have you been saving/investing ? What is your asset allocation to this point and after FIRE? What is your salary and savings rate? Roth or tax deductible? What is your monthly requirement/draw down rate?
These are very helpful for the readers as it puts it in the right context and aids in applying the lessons to ourselves.
Isn’t FI and/or RE all about just not being a pawn or slave to the game or system? I think it is that simple.
Keep in mind when making criticisms and requests like this whether YOU would be willing to include all of that information in a post on the internet. Most people are not willing to put their net worth and income on something with their name attached. While I agree it can be very helpful to others and provide a lot of context, there are very good reasons to avoid that level of transparency.
And then there is the humblebrag issue. I mean, people want transparency, but then they don’t. Or full transparency just makes you look like a bragger. We’re running a post about our giving this week and one of our staff members asked me if I wanted to include the amounts we gave. We chose not too, just to avoid coming across as humblebraggers. Same issue with talking about how much one makes, has, pays in taxes etc.
Everything i mentioned Jim already does maybe with exception of salary
RG- Probably better said as “has in the past”. I don’t think I’ve mentioned my net worth, income, tax bill, charitable giving amount etc. on this blog in many years. And I’m far more willing to be transparent than most.
True , but you mentioned everything else (Roth contributions over time and type (Roth 401k , mega etc), asset allocation, savings rate, investment time in years etc)).
I’m not trying to be confrontational but these would help others achieve FIRE by emulating tactics.
I try to be transparent where it makes sense (doesn’t hurt the business, doesn’t make me look like a humblebragging douchebag readers can’t relate to etc.)
I guess the flaw in FIRE is that it means different things to different people and there is no one set definition. Some people need $5K/month & some people need $25K/month.
Just because someone has the investment assets to theoretically produce a livable lifestyle (ie not starving but not enough for current lifestyle) at 4% draw down rate doesn’t mean FIRE to me.
FIRE to me is someone who stops practicing and doesn’t go back. Like literally gives up license and board certifications. He hangs it up and never goes back. then maybe goes and lives on his boat for example.. .
I trained a resident who lived on a boat once.
Very few docs give up their license, even once they become uncredentialable/unemployable due to not practicing for several years. Just too convenient to write a keflex script every now and then.
Good points by Dr. Dahle. By and large, there are two sides to every coin, and costs to every benefit.