By Dr. James M. Dahle, WCI Founder
[Founder's Note: The following is an email I sent to Dave Ramsey in 2015. I have not yet received a response. I publish it here as a public service to indebted physicians. Dave and I have no financial relationship.]
Dear Mr. Ramsey,
I listen to your show from time to time in the evenings and although I have criticized your investing advice in the past, I generally agree with the advice you give on most topics. You are particularly skilled at motivating people to get out of debt. For this reason, I have been disappointed to see the advice you have given physicians and their family members regarding the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program. As near as I can tell, you are not being malicious when giving this advice, but the advice you have repeatedly given to callers reflects a significant misunderstanding of the program. I hope this letter will provide the understanding you need to give proper advice to these physicians and other high-income professionals.
Residents and Fellows Can't Afford Full Payments
The PSLF program is coupled with the Income Based Repayment/Pay As Your Earn (PAYE), and Repaye program. These programs base your payments solely on your income, rather than amount owed or interest rate of the debt. These are critical programs for resident physicians due to the extreme debt they have acquired due to rapidly escalating tuition bills at our nation's medical schools. You see, a resident physician often literally cannot make the payments on her debt without the assistance of an income driven repayment program. Consider a resident with $400,000 of student loans at an average rate of 7%. The standard payment on a ten year plan is about $57,000 per year, slightly more than the entire salary of a resident or fellow. The interest alone is $28,000 per year, or over half of a resident's gross salary. In reality, for most physician trainees, their debt grows during residency because their relatively tiny payments do not even cover the interest. However, all of those tiny payments generally DO count toward the 120 required payments to receive PSLF.
Not a Rural Program
Based on your response to callers to your radio show, you seem to be under the misunderstanding that PSLF is only available to those who are working in underserved or rural areas. However, the requirements of the program are that the recipient works for a government agency or a 501(c)3. This includes military, Veterans Affairs, academic, and many non-academic physicians employed by a non-profit hospital in all states in rural, suburban, and urban areas. Since most physicians will not know if they will be working for a 501(c)3 until their final year of training, it is premature to make the decision whether to pay off their loans or have them forgiven prior to that point. A better use of any extra funds in residency would often be to fund a Roth IRA rather than pay down student loans due to the possibility of the debt being forgiven.
Not 10 Years
Your response to indebted physicians often includes the phrase “ten years is too long of a time to carry debt.” While I do not disagree that ten years is a long time and longer than I would like to be in debt after residency, doctors are in residency and fellowship for 3-7 years, depending on specialty. Their actual time making full payments prior to forgiveness may be as little as 3-4 years, which is quite a short time given the extreme amounts of debt many medical students now graduate with. Just as you feel a 15-year mortgage is okay, you should feel that carrying a student loan debt equal to the size of a mortgage for someone on their income for 3-7 years after completion of training is acceptable when the reward for doing so may be several hundred thousand dollars.
Some things in life are riskier than PSLF going away.
Program May Change
Many physicians currently enrolled in the program worry it may change prior to their receiving forgiveness. That is a valid concern, however, I suspect that even if it does change those currently in the program will be grandfathered in to its current terms. Paying off loans that would otherwise be mostly forgiven out of concern for this possible change seems imprudent. A better approach would be to save up enough in a side investing account to pay the loans off if the forgiveness does not materialize as expected.
I hope you will change the advice you have been giving to young physicians asking about the PSLF program in the future.
Sincerely,
James M. Dahle, MD, FACEP
Founder of The White Coat Investor
What do you think? Have you heard Dave advise physicians about student loan management in the past? What do you think of his advice? Comment below!
[This updated post originally published in 2016.]
I am also concerned that Dave Ramsey has made the decision not to respond to you—-this character flaw says volumes about the man.
You can attack Dave for many things (his investment advice and ELP system chief among them), but I wouldn’t say lack of response to an email is an indication of character flaws for someone who probably gets a couple of thousand emails per day…
I think Joel above was being sarcastic….
Exactly. I don’t expect a response. I expect an understanding of a program. Doctors call him up and ask about the program. And he confuses it with something like the NHSC scholarship.
How many emails a day does DR get from a professional like our host? Surely, you cannot throw the Doctor’s email into the general email boat. I was not being sarcastic. When I get inquiries from perfect strangers I do the respectful thing and respond to them in a timely manner. DR isn’t even desirous of using a form letter as his response.
I am not being sarcastic when I say: It is an outrage to receive such a well crafted and researched letter from an MD and reject it out of hand. How many people heard Dave’s less than fully accurate response on the radio? Are they not entitled to hear DR response? No—because Dave is not interested in the subject. DR cannot learn a thing from his listening audience—–this is his character flaw.
valid points
I have been listening to Dave for a year or more and realized he has a cookie cutter formula that frankly doesn’t change. I’m amazed at how he doesn’t keep up with things to refesh his advice and correct errors (I have heard him do this once). My opinion: his methods work for increasing listeners, readers and students .. Changing his stance even in the face of facts just adds risk (in his mind)
I think Dave would reject the notion of going $400,000 into debt in the first place. I’ve heard him talk about how stupid it was for a medical student to go into 300k. He thinks he should have gone to a cheaper school and generally showed a misunderstanding of the entire process of med school/residency. I like Dave, but his profession-specific advice is often pretty bad. A lot of people can’t be choosy about their med school or weren’t born in Texas where in state tuition is peanuts.
I have a little preference for paying off loans just because I feel like your first choice should be to pay back your debts. I’ve seen Dave tell people to work with credit card companies to reduce their bill though, so I don’t think that’s his qualm about PSLF
At a young age he and his new wife were RECKLESS with their credit. Buying real estate with a 90 day note?
Give us a break! He was reckless because he did not seek out professional help. This is not brain science!
Now, at age 56 he has no debt. Has he not learned that well managed debt is good debt? As and example: He could get a 30 year mortgage today at about 3.5 percent and in his tax-bracket it is effectively less than half of that.
I feel Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey are an ideal couple for a fee-only retirement-financial planning consultation. But try and make that suggestion to Dave.
I agree with CB! I think Dave’s point is you shoukd have never had that debt or taken on that debt in the first place… I think Dave is right. Whether we as doctors choose to ignore it and take debt anyway is our business…
It sounds like Dave is spreading half-truths and misinformation about a program he doesn’t understand. I doubt it’s intentional, but as someone who is respected as an authority figure on debt matters, he should get his facts straight.
I rarely hear his show anymore. Has anyone heard him talk about PSLF in the last year since Dr. Dahle sent the letter? Although he didn’t respond, perhaps he might have read it and learned something?
I heard one last week and cringed. I like the get out of debt part, but I also don’t think it’s possible to go through med/dental by yourself without loans, either monetary or time.
At some point it becomes intentional even if its just by never addressing your shortcomings or knowledge gaps. I think a lot of people give him leeway because of some of the good things he says, which in all honesty are no brainer finance 101 things and anyone could say that, and of course because he plays the religion card. Which has always been a good shield for all kinds of people that had some ulterior motives. Like a free teflon coating.
Great letter and post – thanks for sharing. I fully agree with your position here.
Agreed
I have many friends who follow Dave Ramsey. I have to say that I am NOT a fan of his. He is too generic and in some cases is giving bad advice for personal gain. He (or his staff) censor his boards and any comment that criticizes what he says is removed.
His advice is good for the general population that makes poor decisions (don’t use credit cards period, etc.). I have suggested the benefits when used appropriately (paid in full); increased credit score, using someone else’s money interest free while being able to invest during each cycle, built in benefits (price matches, traveler insurance,..) and rewards cards that have discounts. Ramsey’s people didn’t even want to debate.
I was happy to see many people had negative comments about his selected professionals. He gets paid for every referral he makes to them, and older professionals didn’t like being one of his pre-screened selected. She said she lost money on his referrals. I was unhappy about him saying they will always get you more money back at tax time. Maybe for the first time, but a professional worth his salt should get you owing as close to $0 as possible (or in my opinion, we should pay up to $999 the threshold without penalty so we use the government money interest free).
He serves a niche. He helps people (but not all). But he isn’t open-minded at all. He won’t address other factors and is not good for a diligent money manager (personal not professional). I think he says a lot of good things, but I wouldn’t send friends or family to him. And I have to disagree with many choices my friends who go to him make.
Adam, I couldn’t agree more. And don’t get me started on the cars he buys. I have clients in Nashville who used to be in sales at Mercedes. Let’s just say I don’t trust people who do not practice what they preach.
What’s the story with this? Did he buy cars on credit there? That’s the only thing I can think of him preaching about cars-wise.
I have to admit I’m a little curious too (and I am Adam, I didn’t realize I wasn’t logged in with my first post…and a wave to Johanna)
No, that’s not all. He preached you were stupid if you bought a new car – always should be used as that was what he always did. It was a badge of honor. When someone at the dealer commented about it, he was not a happy camper. Maybe he has changed his advice since nobody seems to remember, but I definitely do.
I used to listen to him daily until a caller complained that his tax preparer had made an error he owed more taxes. Dave said he should demand that the CPA pay penalties, interest, PLUS the tax due. Of course, it’s embarrassing to make a mistake, but no preparer is 100% perfect. We always pay penalties and interest, but the taxes? That means I should get the refund if it went in the other direction. His ignorance about the subject was the last straw – I was totally fed up with his shoot-from-the-hip entertainment style.
I don’t have any problem with his car advice. He says “Pay Cash” and he says “Have no more than 50% of your annual income in cars, boats, planes, ATVs etc.” Both good tips I think. If Dave wants to drive a $200K Mercedes, I have zero problem with that. Now, if he’s leasing one or financing one, that might be more interesting….
Well, he does say that if you have a net worth of 1 million then you can buy a new car, but not before. I guess he can buy a few hundred new cars and still be following his own advice.
Also not a fan. If it were someone else and they hadnt played the religion card for so long he would not receive anything close to the soft hands treatment he gets. At some point you’re not doing good anymore even if you help some people, things offset, and his generic advice is well…generic and can be had anywhere.
Are you able to share more fully how it is that Dave answers the problem?
I reconstructed some of it based on your points but that is second-hand and from your point of view.
I don’t have a link to what I heard that particular day that caused me to send the letter, but here’s an example that is similar: http://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/posts/121980
His take here is that the public shouldn’t have to pay your student loan bills because it’s socialism. But the response I heard before was basically that it required you to live in a tiny town and you don’t want to be in debt for 10 years. I think he also thought it was taxable, which it is not (IBR, PAYE and RePAYE forgiveness is.)
This link isn’t a doc, nor PSLF, but it’s similar. Start at 2 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92V6njqYLT0
Wow, that made me cringe. I was under the impression that Dave was much more flowery and positive in his speech as a preachy Christian. Calling people “stupid” and “baby” was pretty surprising and does nothing to bring him into my circle of influence.
Thank you for looking up those references.
Here’s a classic one from a few years ago. Far from flowery and positive – You don’t get much more stubborn and/or condescending than Dave gets http://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/posts/126808
Wow. I cant believe the way he tried to use fallacies and trick him into agreeing he didnt know enough about “the program” to make an informed decision. He’s pretty demeaning.
Good on him for trying to be nice while still trying to stand up for himself and give the correct info.
DR keeps saying average annual, instead of annualized. He knows exactly what he’s doing. Thats not very cool.
Whats awesome is he spent time reading an article on air, thats a great time filler.
East Coast and Zaphod, I blame YOU for tickling my curiosity into listening to 30 minutes of Dave Ramsey’s “freakin’ ” this and that. Dave to Brian at the end: “If you keep on with this, you and me are gonna have a problem!” Condescending bully.
This was like listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. Brian was far too polite. Dave was un-Christian.
Thank you. Part of me was tempted to go to these links. However, each comment makes me curious but less desirous to waste my time. Glad I haven’t viewed, but I appreciate the criticisms to use as ammo.
While admittedly I did not listen to the whole replay, I am fairly certain this version is heavily edited from the original – I specifically remember him taking up a full hour of his show on this topic, while this replay is probably missing 15 minutes, with the other 15/20 minutes going to ads. At one point towards the end of the original conversation Dave was asked “Why don’t you just use the correct number?” to which the response Dave gave – and I kid you not – was “BECAUSE IT’S MY SHOW!”.
Somewhat of a disclosure – I happen to know Brian quite well and still laugh at it to this day.
Actually, that was in the part you didn’t listen to. He told Brian that he could just get his own show if he wanted to talk about his POV.
Not many out there understand the current plight of todays professional student. Try reading any thread on the Boglehead forum when the concept of loan forgiveness is brought up. It’s not well received. I’m not surprised Ramsey has no idea how the program works either.
^^^^^^ This! Exactly why I will not visit B’heads again. I went there for my very first post about paying down student loan debt or using PSLF and I was treated like an alien…except for one very quick and subtle invitation from EmergDoc (WCI) to come and explore this site. The hubris and lack of understanding is huge from those on the outside.
When I listen to Dave, i pick out what I like and ignore the rest. No financial management book or website has ever given advice that will work for me 100%. Dave get me motivated to pay off my student loans….that is the main reason I listen to him.
I agree. But it still bothers me to hear bad advice being given.
My impression of Dave Ramsey is that he doesn’t seem to stay up to date or continue to learn about these sorts of programs if they don’t directly impact him. The other day I heard him say on the podcast that the only benefit of a 529 account is the tax free gains, which doesn’t really matter when the guy is going to school in two years. This might be true in Tennessee, but what if he was in a state such as Virginia or plenty of others that also offer an income tax break? I’m surprised he missed that since he makes it clear on the show he tries to pay as little tax as possible.
IAN LORD
The risk of decreasing funds in two years time is real risk of having less money for college at the time you need them most. The benefit of tax free gains in your investment are more likely realized over 10 years subject to less volatility of the market than 2 years. How foolish would you feel if your education savings after two years is less than when you started?
All states have different rules for 529. Why would Dave Ramsey or anyone know them off the top of their head. Here is a list. Some offer no additional breaks but the tax free gains. http://www.finaid.org/savings/state529deductions.phtml
This program was first offered October 1, 2007 so first applications start October 1, 2017. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/public-service
Therefore, NOBODY TO THIS DATE has used this loan forgiveness program to date. There is an application process for qualifying Direct Loans and they just released the application for loan forgiveness recently. here: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/public-service-employment-certification-form.pdf
You must have paid 120 payments that qualify as on time and do not have to be consecutive while working at a qualified employment. Extra payments do not count toward the 120. An interested debtor may send evidence for of employment and payments and the government will return notice of how many payments qualify as part of an official application. here is FAQ: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/public-service-loan-forgiveness-common-questions.pdf
What if the program changes by an act of congress in the future before you qualify? Your reference to being grandfathered into the old program rules would not apply as this situation would be more like a pension program in which you must be eligible and be apply for the program before grandfathering would commence. THIS PROGRAM COULD GO AWAY BEFORE IT EVEN STARTS. Save your money as if you will pay the entire loan if the program does go away.
There is a payment estimator which tells you which programs and payments you are eligible for. https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action
As you remarked the employment is the biggest factor. Remember that during and after residency, the hospital or employer must be qualified or payments will not qualify for the application. According to this older report half of all hospitals do qualify so potential employment matters. NO PRIVATE PRACTICE ALLOWED. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3056045/
I like Dave Ramsey more many of his principles. I have heard him say the following. Everyone should pay their bills and should be treated humanely during times when income is low and bills are high. Budgets are powerful to discipline your behavior and your dollars, especially when paying off debt and saving money. Saving or paying yourself first is the secret to building wealth. Wealth is a tool for the disciplined to use for enjoyment and generosity to others. Investment is private savings (not leveraged finance) placed into various forms of interest forming or value growth i.e. real estate, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, gold, etc. He prefers real estate because he has that skill set but you can choose yourself if you have a skill or trade that will generate more than the stock market. Mutual funds are his default for investment. How can anyone not like this guy? Keep finances simple and educate yourself and don’t rely too much on anyone else unless they can educate you enough to choose for yourself.
Yea, I mostly like Dave too as noted.
Just because half of hospitals are non-profit doesn’t mean half the docs working there are employed directly by 501(c)3s. Having your for-profit physician group contract with a non-profit doesn’t count. For example, in my area over half the hospitals are non-profits, but the academic docs are the only emergency docs in the extended metropolitan area that would qualify for PSLF. That will vary dramatically by specialty and geographic area. Anyone planning on doing PSLF thinking there are tons of those jobs should be very careful making assumptions.
Dave Ramsey’s advice, in general, makes my head hurt. Although he is pretty good at motivating people to get their act together as far as debt reduction, the man simply cannot do math. Pay off all of your low interest debt, while foregoing options for significant debt forgiveness, retirement investment opportunities, compounding interest….sigh. I’ve never really understood how physicians, who must complete courses in fairly advanced mathematics, can fall for this faulty logic.
I think there’s more to it than this. You’re just looking at it from the mathematically correct answer. I think Dave is right that people don’t get into debt because they can’t do math. They get into debt because they can’t control their behavior. And until you get the behavior right, knowing the mathematically correct answer isn’t going to help. For example, I get new attendings all the time asking if they should pay off their student loans or invest in their retirement accounts. The truth is it doesn’t matter all that much. What matters is the percentage of their income that they dedicate to building wealth, whether investments or loans. If they’re dedicating 40%-50%+ of their gross income to building wealth they can easily max out all their retirement accounts and pay off their loans within a couple of years. But instead they’re fixated on whether their investments will earn more or less than their 5-6% student loans.
The other problem that Dave does well with is a lack of focus. When you’re trying to do 12 different things with your finances, it’s a lot harder to accomplish anything. But if you use a babystep approach, you can use that power of focus to meet your goals. First you get an emergency fund. Then you get out of debt. Then you save up a down payment. Then you go after retirement. Granted he then suggests you do several steps simultaneously, but don’t discount the power of focus.
I like a lot of what Dave does as stated above but I really lost respect for him when I found out the reality of what he gets from his “endorsed local providers”. My wife is a realtor and looked into becoming and “ELP” and found that he gets around 35% referral fee for any business she would get from him. The standard referral fee in real estate is 25%. When you figure all the “ELP”s he has in insurance, investing, real estate etc, its incredible. He gives no indication on his show that there may be some conflict of interest when recommending these people to his listeners. On his show it sounds like he’s doing this out of the goodness of his heart. That combined with the poor investment advice has put me off to him.
It’s not just his show. He advertises them on his website. He doesn’t have ANY disclaimer about the conflict of interest. I was searching and searching. He needs to be transparent and tell when he has a financial interest, like Dr. Dahle does. I can’t stand the man. He is arrogant and a bit of a hypocrite. His strength is in getting the emotive responses from people. He can motivate many people. This is a service, but there have to be others out there who are more knowledgeable, less arrogant, less hypocritical, more transparent and willing to adapt to changing rules and regulations. How did he corner the market?
You have to admit he has talent and he’s a whip-smart marketer and businessman. He was the first one in this space to have broad appeal to the vast majority of financial illiterates.
You could say he’s the Donald Trump of financial advice.
Ouch. I’m trying to decide if the financial illiterates or Dave Ramsey should be more offended by that comment.
Let me know…
Does he also get a fixed salary for his radio show?
Is the radio network responsible for Dave answers? Does the network have any responsibility ?
No. I don’t see why they would be.
Why? For the very reasons posted on your board. No?
What board? I’m certainly not an advocate of suing someone peripherally related to something else. That’s like suing anesthesia because you got a bile leak during cholecystectomy. Besides, anyone who thinks Dave Ramsey is acting as their fiduciary deserves what they get. The show is primarily entertainment with some generalized financial information thrown in. Take what’s useful and apply it to your life. Leave the rest. Get a second opinion on anything that sounds a little off.
I was a regular listener to John Scheuer, Bruce Williams and Mr. Gross. All three were well qualified to give advice over the public airwaves. Not one of them was ever accused of giving poor/wrong advice. During their long tenure on the radio I never considered them “entertainers” as you do. Its too bad you are too young to recall them.
Dave is an entertainer first and foremost. That is why he is exempt from registering with the SEC as a Registered Investment Advisor (RIA). Additionally, he need not have a Series 6 or 7 license. With that said, what are his credentials?
Some of you might remember a guy by the name of Bruce Williams. I my view he knew his stuff. So did a guy named John Scheuer. There was also a guy, whose name escapes me, that broadcasted out of the CBS radio affiliate in Philadephia. He was a CPA.
I remember Bruce Williams! He was down-to-earth practical and knowledgeable. Probably too boring for folks whose attention span is limited to sound-bites.
Dave Ramsey is there to give financial advice to people with bad spending habits and low-income.
I remember getting into a brief debate with a DR devotee in my circle who told me I was nuts to have about $250k in loans when I graduated medical school and that I needed to “do nothing until I paid that off.”
My response:
a) you don’t understand tax-deferred retirement investing
b) you don’t understand the value of a $250k investment (medical school) with a 100%+ yearly return
Jim Dahle is for doctors.
Remember you still get that “doctor income” even if you pay off that debt. The less debt you have the less money you have to make each month to maintain the same lifestyle.
I like to see docs live cheap enough the first few years after residency that they can both pay off their loans (a la Dave Ramsey) AND max out their retirement accounts. The future increase in lifestyle can then come using what was going toward the loans.
JustSayin…..I consolidated my loans years back and when I called (confirmed recently with follow up call) I found out that I don’t qualify for PSLF. I was told that the ‘way I consolidated’ disqualified me from the program. Seeing as I graduated in 2009 and have been paying since 2007, I’m a bit disappointed as the entire time I have been employed at a 501(c)3.
On a different note – I just found out that my loan payment amount was dropped without me knowing or asking. The spin I received was that it ‘was a good thing for me’. Clearly the lender benefits more if it takes me longer to pay it off.
But, as WCI has pointed out – maybe paying off my loans faster would be a good thing. Without PSLF as an option, I think that might just have to happen. (though my loans are only 3.5%!)
-JustSayin
This is a breath of fresh air to see Dave challenged on PSLF and to read other general discontent with his cookie cutter advice. I like his show because it’s motivating to hear success stories and a handy 30-second skip ahead button on my phone allows me to skip over all of the filler and hot air.
His website claims that PSLF is for jobs that no one else wants and keeps enrollees working below market rate. This generalization based on who-knows-what source overlooks the fact that many professionals go into their professions and stay in them for the sake of service to others–a concept that a Bible-thumper shouldn’t have to think twice to understand.
I agree with other commenters that his show is best for the lost masses who don’t understand credit cards or interest rates. There are many incongruities and questionable statements that a thinking person has to overlook to get other good financial info. from his show.
I credit Dave Ramsey with getting me going on budgeting and staying out of debt while in college, but like many have said on here, much of his info is outdated. The more I’ve learned about investing and retirement I really think Dave is best for people in the worst of financial situations and with moderate-low income (or ~ national median for a family). I have benefited greatly from his debt teaching but his “how to” for investing is quite lacking. I appreciate WCI and others (Bogleheads, Bernstein, etc.) at continuing to put out good information. I would suggest for many readers on this site to consider recommending DR for your coworkers (admin, nurses, techs, etc. or family) that don’t have the high income to check out Dave’s info. I believe they’re the ones that would benefit the most from it. I’m a PT in the Army, so not the same income as most of the Drs/JDs on this site, but because I was out of debt when I began my career and ended up marrying a PT, we are able to save ~30-50% of our monthly income (no kids as of today and also does depend on the month) and I’m definitely way farther ahead financially than 95% of my peers with similar incomes – I credit most of that to DR for his teachings, but as WCI and you all have said – once you “graduate” from DR you need to educate yourself on investing from other resources! Thanks for the good objective thoughts, WCI. As a fairly strong DR listener and supporter, I thought you were very fair and well-balanced.
THANK YOU! I listen to Dave Ramsey and as recently as this week he gave bad advice to a recent medical graduate and did not mention any of the options mentioned here.
That’s too bad. The last time I heard him address it he actually got it right.
He became good at personal budgeting after filing for personal bankruptcy.
Now that it is 2020, have you heard of anyone that has qualified for PSLF and had their loans forgiven?
Yes, but not a doc yet for various reasons. After talking to experts in the field, most of them expect a few docs in 2021, more in 2022, and a large number starting in 2023. There is a FB group I joined that is docs going for PSLF and a year or so there was a large group of them that had around 80-90 payments but very few that had over 100.
While I agree with you that DR doesn’t generally have good investing advice, and I do understand that you can technically get your loan forgiven via PSLF, I will say that as a matter of ethics you *shouldn’t* get your loan forgiven. I don’t know if you all realize what it looks like for highly paid physicians trying to figure out how to offload their debts to the US government and lowly paid taxpayers… It’s not a good look. So go for PSLF but I hope while you do that I hope you stop and take a look at the low paid teacher at your kids school, or the small business owner starting a shop in your local town, and realize that what you’re doing by opting for PSLF is saying to society “it’s better that these people pay for my loans than me.”
I love that you think teachers are the ones paying all the taxes. A typical family of four with a teacher breadwinner doesn’t pay income taxes while a typical family of four with a physician breadwinner pays 25% of income in taxes.
Whether PSLF is bad policy or not, I certainly don’t worry that its benefits are being paid by “poor people.” That’s simply not the case.