I don't hear about new ideas very often, but here is one that a few people might find very useful. I call it the “Mega Backdoor Roth IRA.” There are several variations. Two of them work well for selected people, but after discussing the third with several retirement plan experts, it probably isn't a viable option.
Most of Us Don't Need the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA
Prior to getting into the variations, I need to point out that most physicians and most Americans probably don't want, don't need, or can't have a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA. An employee without the ability to contribute after-tax (not Roth) money to their 401K can't have one. A typical physician not maxing out his 401K and other tax-deferred options is probably better off with more tax-deferred space rather than more Roth space. A regular old boring Backdoor Roth IRA will allow most docs to have some tax diversification in retirement. A practice owner with multiple employees probably can't do a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA (the original impetus behind writing this post) due to profit-sharing laws.
So Who Should Consider Using a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA?
Three people.
- An employee with a very unique 401K.
- An independent contractor physician with no employees who needs more Roth space and is willing to give up tax-deferred space to get it.
- A very high-income physician who expects to still be well into the top bracket in retirement (i.e. his effective tax rate on tax-deferred accounts is very similar to his marginal tax rate during his working years.)
Variation # 1 – The Employee With a Unique 401K
Some 401Ks not only permit $17.5K of either tax-deferred or Roth contributions, but ALSO permit you to contribute your own, after-tax money into the plan up to the $52K limit. A good example of this is the TSP for deployed military doctors. It isn't a particularly good deal to just contribute after-tax money, UNLESS you can then get that money out and convert it to a Roth. Voila- A Mega Backdoor Roth IRA. Instead of only being able to contribute $5.5K per year, all of a sudden you can contribute $34.5K (plus the $5.5K in your personal and $5.5K in your spousal IRA.) If you're over 50 and put your first $23K (remember the $5.5K catch-up contribution) into a Roth 401K, you could potentially put up to $65K per year into a Roth IRA.
Here are the requirements:
- The plan must allow for after-tax contributions above and beyond the $17,500 employee contribution limit, preferably up to the $52,000 limit. So you can put in your $17,500 that is either tax-deferred or Roth, then contribute another $34,500 to the plan in after-tax dollars, similar to a non-deductible traditional IRA.
- The plan must allow for non-hardship in-service withdrawals of after-tax contributions.
- The plan should prohibit non-hardship in-service withdrawals of tax-deferred contributions (not mandatory, but a useful feature.)
- The plan should allow for “lump sum” contributions (not mandatory, but useful.)
Even if your plan doesn't allow in-service withdrawals (like the TSP), if you are separating soon from the company (or military), you may be able to isolate that basis and accomplish the same thing like I did after I left the military. This is a great deal for someone who has limited tax-protected (and asset-protected) accounts but would like to save more for retirement. Unfortunately, most 401Ks don't allow after-tax contributions. Check and see if yours does. Be sure the person you're asking understands you're not talking about Roth contributions, but contributions above and beyond the $17,500 limit.
Variation # 2 The High Income Independent Contractor
I usually recommend that a self-employed physician use an Individual 401K instead of a SEP-IRA. This is because you can max out an Individual 401K on less money, and 401K money isn't counted in the pro-rata calculation you must do when doing a regular old Backdoor Roth IRA. However, if you wish to do the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA, a SEP-IRA is probably the best option, since I don't know of an Individual 401K that allows both after-tax contributions and in-service withdrawals, although I wouldn't be surprised to see one that allowed in plan conversions, which are essentially the same thing. Typically, the person doing this is going to have a very high income, far higher than the average doctor, and would prefer Roth contributions to tax-deferred contributions.
Here is how it works:
- Contribute your $52K to a SEP-IRA like usual. You can make this contribution anytime between January 1 of the current year and April 15 of the next year.
- Convert your entire SEP-IRA to a Roth IRA. On your taxes, you'll deduct your SEP-IRA contributions, then pay tax on the conversion, but the net effect will be like contributing $52K to a Roth IRA. Be sure that you do your conversion prior to December 31st, as you do not want any money in the SEP-IRA on December 31st, lest you screw up the pro-rata calculation for your additional Backdoor Roth IRA.
- If you are concerned about the Step Doctrine, wait a few months between contribution and conversion. The tax burden won't be that much higher and it won't be that much more complicated.
Variation # 3 The Practice Owner's Uniquely Structured 401K
I've heard from a couple of people on this one, and the consensus seems to be that it is illegal, although if someone has some information showing that isn't true, I know some people who would be very interested.
The practice owner starts a 401K structured just like the one in variation # 1. However, instead of an employee, you are now the owner and responsible for the match and any profit-sharing contributions due to your employees.
You take these steps:
- Max out the employee contribution ($17,500) in either a Roth or traditional tax-deferred manner.
- Then contribute another $34,500 as a lump sum.
- Next, do an in-service rollover/transfer of the after-tax money to a traditional IRA. If the plan is written properly, you do not, and in fact cannot, withdraw the tax-deferred employee contribution. It stays behind in the 401K.
- Finally, convert the entire traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. This works just like the Backdoor Roth IRA, and you need to make sure you do not have any other traditional IRA, SEP-IRA, SIMPLE IRA money as of December 31st of that year. If you transfer directly to a Roth IRA (now allowed), then you can even have traditional/SEP/SIMPLE IRA money on the side.
When completed, you end up with $17,500 in the 401K and $34,500 in a Roth IRA. This allows you to tax-protect and asset-protect just as much money (more on an after-tax basis) as you would with a profit-sharing plan ($52,000 per year, more if you're over 50). The point of this plan is to save on any profit-sharing contributions you would have to make for your employees, (a significant expense for a practice owner employing nurses, mid-levels, or other doctors,) although you would still be required to pay for plan expenses and any regular 401K matching contributions. Of course, the employees may not be very appreciative of that, so you might not want to mention it. At any rate, I don't know of any retirement plan administrators willing to set up a small practice 401K into which the owner can make after-tax “employee” contributions, so it isn't much of an issue anyway.
What do you think? Do you use a Mega Backdoor Roth IRA? Would it be useful to you? Comment below!
Such a great article. Thanks for all of the legwork.
I have set up a solo 401k with Fidliety (mysolo401k did the paperwork/apps). Very slick
My question is the limit of the post-tax contribution.
I max out my W2 job 401k at 56k.
With my 1099, I know you are limited on how much you can contribute pre-tax. (20% of gross).
Is there a limit on how much of the 37k you can contribute to the post tax besides the 56k total (19k across all plans for employer contributions)?
For example. You have a 1099 that makes 10k a year. If you put the 20% away ($2k), could you still do $35k post tax on only 10k of 1099 income? (that money coming from savings/etc)
The Finance Buff calc says no. I can’t seem to find a clear answer.
It’s $57K total and $19.5K for employEE contributions.
You could put $2K in as a pre-tax contribution or $10K in as a post-tax contribution and then roll that $10K out to a Roth IRA. But you couldn’t do a $35K post-tax contribution.
TFB is right, as usual.
Hi,
I have been doing backdoor Roth for a few years now. I also have an individual 401k that I typically max out. I am thinking of rolling some of my funds in individual 401 k to Roth 401k, to reduce future tax burden. Will this mess up my backdoor Roth?
I have no SEP or other ira accounts.
Please advise.
Thank you
No. Be sure to check if the plan allows you to do that. Some don’t.
I am an employed physician with 403b and 457b plans. Can I execute a mega backdoor roth within a 403b plan, or this limited only to 401k plans? thanks!
If the plan allows it (it probably doesn’t, but ask HR).
Say I contribute to my employer 401k $19500 (either Roth or deferred) then made an after tax non-Roth contribution of $38,500. I’d then roll that into my Roth IRA. Then I worked Locums and was able to open a solo 401k as well. If my income from working locums allowed me to make after tax non-Roth contributions of 58k, could I roll that into my Roth IRA all in the same year? With a back door Roth contribution of 6k that would be $102500 into my Roth. Could somebody do that?
Yes, if both plans allow it.
Thank you for this post.
I happen to fall into Variation #1 with an employer that allows for post-tax 401k contributions. Once I have made those contributions, do I need to make the conversion to the Roth IRA account within the same calendar year?
This year (2020), I made post-tax contributions, but I mistakenly did not convert them to the Roth IRA as I went along. These post-tax contributions have some gains, and my understanding is that I will have to pay taxes on the gains when I convert the post tax contributions. One options is for me to convert the post-tax contributions now in Dec 2020 and pay taxes on the gains in April 2021. Is there any reason I can’t simply wait until 2021 to make the conversion and thereby delay paying taxes on the gains for one year?
Going forward, I will continue to make post-tax contributions, but I will convert to the Roth as I go to avoid this scenario. I’m just trying to solve this particular, self-imposed predicament.
Thanks!
No.
Yes, you will owe taxes on gains.
Yes, you can wait.
Hi Jim,
I have a question. My husband has 2 different employers, 1 provide him with 401k account and the other is 403b. He has been contributing to Roth 401k for 1 employee which of course a post-tax. So, my question will be, assuming his employers allow in-service withdrawal, is it allowed to contribute, let’s say:
Pre tax to 403b max $19.5k AND
Post tax to 401k Roth (different employer) then rollover the 401k Roth to Roth IRA?
What do you think?
No. You only get one $19.5K employee contribution no matter how many employers. More info here:
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/multiple-401k-rules/
Also, your employer would have to allow inservice withdrawals to rollover a Roth 401k to a Roth IRA before you separated, and most don’t.
Thanks for this article. My employer’s plan allows both the mega backdoor Roth IRA and in-plan Roth conversions of after-tax (non-Roth) contributions. The 401K plan has some pretty great funds available, so I’m thinking about just doing the in-plan conversion instead of the in-service distribution to the Roth IRA. Are there any reasons that one of those accounts would be preferable to the other in general?
The 401k has slightly better asset protection in some states. Also the age 55 rule applies rather than age 59 1/2. But otherwise, not really.
Thanks for this post & for checking on the comments too.
I have a few questions for variant #1 :
1. can we go mega back door roth only from pay check or can we put it from bank account ( money saved in the bank account from salary income)
2. what is the cut off date for mega backdoor roth ? is the mega backdoor roth to be done before 31st Dec (similar to 401k contributions) or before tax filing date (15th April – as the Roth IRA)
1. Ask employer in an employer 401(k), but probably either. I’ve done 401(k) contributions with a check before.
2. I think all employee contributions (including after-tax) need to be in by the end of the year (the employer may get a couple of weeks leeway, but it needs to “come from” a check for the calendar year.”
Hi There
Happy Holidays!
I have a bit of mess up with mega conversion. My 401k send check to wrong address, while they can issue me a new check but that means by the time I deposit money in roth year would be 2021. So technically from post tax 401k withdrawal is in Dec-2021 but deposit to roth will be in Jan-2022. Although this is within 60 days rule, am I in trouble? On IRS forms what would be the date of rollover in this case?
Thanks Much!
Pat
I guess it’s when they cut the check, but not 100% sure. Doesn’t matter too much as long as conversions aren’t outlawed retroactively. There’s no pro-rata issue because there is no traditional IRA involved. It’s just a question of whether you pay the tax on the conversion this year or next.
Thanks for the quick reply. Also this is post tax amount so going from Post Tax 401k straight to Roth, hopefully would be fine. I will research on conversion date and report back.
Thanks for the quick reply. Also this is post tax amount so going from Post Tax 401k straight to Roth, hopefully would be fine. I will research on conversion date and report back.
I’m guessing the folks sending the money will be the ones reporting the conversion, that’s why I think it’s going to be the date they pulled it from the account.
How important is it to perform this rollover from after tax 401k to my Roth all at once? As someone who would like to pursue this but isn’t in a position to dump the entire amount in (given that payroll deductions are required) at this time I was considering doing this maybe 4 times throughout the year. Any downsides to this thinking other than having to fill out said paperwork x times?
I don’t think it’s important or not important, rather I think decision is based on how much worries you are about paying some income tax as you will be paying tax on earnings when you roll over.
I contribute every paycheck to max allowed limit and do rollover only in December. Many would say I am paying some tax to IRS for no reason but then there’s convenience and cost of it.
No biggie, but it does provide 4 chances a year for someone to screw it up.
I’m getting conflicting advice on mega-backdoor-roths and was hoping you could help clarify:
2023 contribution limit is 66k to 401k+backdoor Roth+employer contribution+megabackdoor roth
Does this contribution limit include salary deferrals to 457b plans?
The $66K contribution limit is the total 401(k) contribution limit for someone under 50 including employee contributions (whether tax-deferred or tax-free), employer contributions (whether a match or a penalty or whatever), and after-tax employee contributions (which can be converted to Roth if the plan allows it, these are the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA contributions). The IRA contribution limit (where you do a Backdoor Roth IRA) is completely separate. So is the 457(b) limit.
wow thank you, i had this totally confused and Fidelity gave me bad info over the phone 🙂
2nd question: If I do the conversion after-tax->Roth in Feb 2023, can I count it towards my 2022 limit?
There is no limit on conversions, so what limit are you hoping to count it toward? A conversion is not a contribution.
Are you asking if you can call a contribution made to an IRA in 2022 your 2023 contribution? The answer to that is no.
So here’s the situation. My work plan allows for after-tax contributions and in-service rollovers. I completed an in-service rollover last month, but this month I found out that my employer only allows one of these rollovers each year. I may be leaving my employer in July, and I may no longer have access to after-tax contributions at my new employer. So I am trying to maximize my contributions for 2022 and then maximize my 2023 contributions in the first seven months of the year.
The problem I ran into is that my November and December 2022 contributions cannot be rolled into a Roth until 2023, but it seems like you’re saying the $61k limit applies to contributions and not to the rollover process, so I should have no issue in 2023 when I rollover 2023+Nov+Dec. (I do realize that these contributions will have some earnings that cannot be rolled into a Roth).
Earnings can be rolled into a Roth, you just have to pay taxes on them. But it sounds like your plan will work.
Background info:
I have a 457b and a 401a through my W2 employer that I am maxing out. I am doing backdoor roth’s for me and my spouse. I have a side-gig that generates about 30k of income for me. I have a 401k for this side-gig that I usually contribute the full employee elective deferral amount(22500 in 2023) and whatever additional amount I’m allowed to add for the employer side. I have a more than adequately sized taxable account. I’d prefer a bigger Roth account than a bigger Taxable account. I live in a high state income tax state.
Questions:
With an appropriate 401k plan, would I be able to fill in the spacein the 401k(up to 66,000 in 2023) with Roth contributions?
Are the additional Roth contributions limited by my side-gig earnings, or can I fill it with money generated by my W2 income?
Not if you only make $30K. Sorry.
Yes. No.
Guess I gotta figure out how to make more side gig income. Thanks!
Guess I need to figure out how to make more side gig income. Thanks!