Writing this website, responding to comments and emails, and participating in internet forums makes me a bit insulated to what's really going on out there sometimes. That's one reason I really like going out and meeting real docs where they're at financially. I returned yesterday (I wrote this piece in April) from Tucson, where I had the chance to meet a lot of readers and actually speak to my residency program. It was fun to meet new people and renew friendships with those who had given so much to me. The week before I was in Boise, speaking to the Ada County Medical Society, also a great group of docs. But you quickly realize there is a serious selection bias in the docs who arrive at this site. Those who arrive here are not only very interested in financial stuff, but they are also more knowledgeable about it, even without me, than the average doctor. This post, however, is not for you guys. It's for the other guys.
Credit Cards Are Not For Credit!
I've written before, but not for years, about how credit cards are not for credit. You're not supposed to actually carry a balance on them. Well, unless you're somehow taking advantage of a 0% for 18 months kind of deal and could pay it off at any time. Credit cards are for convenience, and maybe also for rewards. And perhaps for a true cheapskate with a massive portfolio, to help him spend a little more money than he would otherwise. But one month of carrying a balance on those suckers pretty much wipes out the rewards for the entire year. If you've carried a balance on a credit card, or paid a credit card fee in the last, say, 3-5 years, credit cards are not for you. Cut em up and throw them away! Heck, even if you are having difficulty saving 20% of your gross income you should get rid of your credit cards.
So what triggered this? Well, I gave a talk to the residents and some of the feedback afterward from one of the attendings was, “The only additional thing I wish you had covered was to tell them not to use credit cards.” I thought to myself, “I have to actually say that? That isn't a given?” I just always took that as a given. Of course, you're not stupid enough to carry a balance on a credit card, are you? Are you? Well, it turns out that lots of people are. QUIT DOING THAT! That's personal finance 101.
A Bit on FMG Immigrant Families
I had a great chat with a resident who was doing some incredible things. She was a refugee from a war-torn country whose family had lived in several different third world countries. Now, half the family had made it to the US, including her parents with advanced degrees working in menial labor jobs. Despite being an FMG (Foreign Medical Graduate), she had matched into a particularly prestigious residency program and had been given awards for her exceptional ability to relate well to patients. And she was truly as nice as she sounds. So nice, in fact, that she was partially supporting her parents and siblings with her residency income and doing all she could to help the other siblings to legally immigrate. However, these efforts caused her to live beyond her means and rack up some serious credit card debt. Now, in the end she'll be fine, because she doesn't have the usual $200K in student loans to go with it. But we had a long chat about the importance of pulling people up to where you are, rather than trying to push them from below. Due to the debt, this resident had a lower net worth than all of her family members, including those living in a third world country! Just like most attendings will make plenty of money to be able to put 20% toward retirement, pay off their loans, and buy a fancy wakeboat (eventually), she will be able to save for retirement, pay off her (relatively minor on an attending salary) debt, and assist her family. But it is important to have your own financial house in order before you try to help someone else. It's the same reason retirement savings is a bigger priority than college savings. You'd rather have your kids work their way through college than have to support you in your golden years.
The Medscape Debt Survey
Medscape just came out this week (again, this was written in April) with their annual physician compensation survey. Part 2 of that survey shows a bunch of interesting stuff. The net worth chart is particularly interesting. Thanks to regular commenter Toshi for helping make the images more readable.
It wasn't so surprising to see that 94% of docs under 28 have a net worth under $500K, nor even that 65% of those 35-39 had less than $500K (although I wish that number were a lot lower). I did find it surprising to find that number never dropped below 10%. At any age, at least 1 out of 10 docs has a net worth under $500K. That's terrible. Heck, it's still 30% at 45-49!
I also found it depressing to see that only 50% of docs over 50 are millionaires. Remember this is net worth- home equity, savings account, checking account, retirement accounts, other investments etc. That's terrible. While I don't expect every doc to be a millionaire at 40, I don't think 50 is a particularly high hurdle. I think $2 Million is a reasonable number for a doc to retire on (that's an income of $80K a year plus Social Security), but when you look at docs at retirement type ages (60+) you see a quarter of doctors still don't have that, and that includes their home equity! Take away the home equity, and that number would be even higher! I was, however, surprised by just how many 70+ docs had more than $5 Million-about 18%. I don't know if that is a reflection of “The Golden Age of Medicine,” or simply due to the fact that they were able to invest throughout the 80s and 90s. But clearly, there are still some docs out there who became very wealthy.
Physician Expenses
Moving beyond the net worth chart, we see one on physician expenses.
2/3 of docs have a mortgage. Okay, no biggie. But 38% have a car loan?!? WTH? Quit buying cars on credit! If you can't afford to buy the car with cash, you can't afford the car. You make $15-50K A MONTH! You should be able to save up for a BRAND NEW CAR in 2-3 months. I could buy a couple of reasonable used ones every month with discretionary cash flow. There's no reason 38% of docs ought to have a car loan. But get this! It gets worse. There's ANOTHER 17% who are LEASING their car. That's a significant majority of doctors who aren't driving a paid-off car. I can barely even write the word “paid-off” because it implies that you had payments at some time.
Who Has Student Loans?
So this was a funny graph.
It turns out emergency docs have more student loans than anyone else. 37% of emergency docs haven't paid off their loans. We're the big losers in the house of medicine. How embarrassing. Only 16% of pulmonologists still have student loans. On average, the numbers seemed to be in the 27% range. I expect that will go up every year for the next few years with the crazy debt burdens young docs now have. 41% still have student debt at 40, and 11% still have it at 50. [Update: Even more embarrassing is that EM's still are the top of the list in 2017! – Ed]
Who's Building Wealth?
One of the questions asked about spending habits. While it was good to see that 61% “live within their means and had little debt” it was a bit depressing to see that only 24% checked the box that they “live below their means, people would be surprised at how much money I have.” I wonder if that percentage would have been higher without the second phrase, since most people, including doctors, don't think they're rich. (That question was asked in 2012- only 11% of doc think they're rich.)
How Do Docs Lose Money?
77% of docs didn't have significant financial losses in 2014. That's good since stocks, bonds, and real estate were all up. 6% of docs still managed to lose a lot of money in the stock market despite the fact that just buying all the stocks would have provided a 12.6% return. However, most losses seemed to be due to divorce and practice issues. Fear your spouse more than your patient!
Investment Mistakes
It turns out that, at least by self-report, endocrinologists are the best investors (least likely to make an investing mistake) and anesthesiologists are the worst.
55% of docs claim to have never made an investing mistake. Hard to put that together with the net worth numbers though, since it seems most docs are at least making the mistake of not investing enough! Given the people who email me, I find it highly unlikely that 55% of docs haven't made any mistakes. Chances are, they simply don't know about their mistakes! At any rate, 28% acknowledge making a mistake investing in the stock market, 14% in real estate, and 14% in another investment. You can count me into at least the first two categories! No surprise, since emergency docs are the 6th worst investors.
If you don't know much about personal finance and investing, know that the first goal for most doctors is to get back to a net worth of zero. It will be far easier to do that if you don't have any credit card debt and if you “go nuts” on your student loans for your first year or two out of residency.
What do you think? Are you surprised how many doctors carry a balance on their credit cards? Are you an immigrant supporting multiple family members? What is that like? Are you surprised by the physician net worth numbers? Why or why not? Comment below!
I owe 330K in student loans at 7%. (yea.. i’m that guy) I’ve been out of Residency for 2 yrs.
I’m on this repayment plan where after 10 yrs, the balance would be forgiven. Over these 10 yrs I calculate paying around 225K, and I would pay taxes (5%) on the balance that is forgiven. Total being just over 230K. This 230K could be less if I can reduce my taxable income, since my monthly payments are based on my Adjusted Gross Income.
I’m not sure if I should stay on this 10 yr plan or attack these student loans aggressively.
I do need to lower my AGI regardless. I don’t have a HSA or 429 or any other pre-tax contributions aside from a Employer 403b , and finally have an 1 yr Emergency fund. But, i’m glad I found this site.
I bought a house last year and owe 480K at 3.5% and this I attack aggressively.
Should i stay on this 10 yr student loan plan? or shift my focus from mortgage to Student loan?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
If your “10 year plan” is PSLF, the forgiveness is not taxable. Generally, the time in residency also counts, so you may only have 3-5 years left at this point if you’re at a 501(c)3.
Better to have loans forgiven than pay them off if that is a reasonable option.
Thanks for the advice WCI.
No doctor needs an advisor to invest in stocks bonds, and other asset classes
Just throwing away valuable dollars and the chance of being led astray
Looking at the net worth chart, you can create a 75th %ile growth curve. You would hit a net worth of $500k at age 35, $1M at 40, and $2M at 50. I’m 4 years out of residency and pretty much on course for that. I came out of residency with a net worth of -$250K and have been adding $100k to net worth yearly (combination of 401K contributions, student loan principal, and mortgage principal). My net worth is now about +$250K 4 years later because I’ve paid in about $400K and my stock portfolio and house have each appreciated about $50K.
I guess if I were on the less frugal end of the spectrum, I’d probably make nominal 401k contributions of $10k/yr (including employer match) and pay off my student loans and mortgage on 30-year plans, so maybe another $20k/yr in net worth accrual per year for a total of $30k/yr. At that rate, it would probably take something on the order of 25 years out of residency to hit a net worth of $1M (depending on market returns, student loan rates, real estate fluctuation, etc), even assuming you leave residency with a net worth of -$250k, as I did.
The only way to do worse than hitting $1M at age 55 is to do really dumb things like tapping into your 401k prematurely, continually pulling out any home equity you’ve built up, and accruing new debts (e.g. going back to school for a degree you don’t finish or use to get a job, or buying a new luxury car on credit with a 72-month loan and nothing down such that after a year you owe a lot more than the car is worth). Also, failed business investments and divorce can make you significantly underperform an unambitious trajectory of accruing $30k/year to get to a net worth of $1M at age 55.
It would be interesting to have a below $0 category for net worth in the medscape survey to see how things project out. Sadly, you might need to have a below 500k category as well.
For those of you with no credit cards: how do you get hotel rooms? I’ve been turned away from several national chains because I didn’t have a credit card to give (they said they needed it ‘in case of cleaning fees.’) Not normally a pain in daily life, but was annoying on the interview trail.
Hi WCI, I’d like to pose a question here to you and your readers relating to this topic, since we’re all anxiously waiting for a WCI Forum 🙂
I’m a dentist who finished school 5 years ago with decent retirement savings, and I’m currently stockpiling some cash to use potentially toward a down payment on a mortgage and a dental practice in the next 12 months.
I also have about $150k in debt remaining, consisting of student loans (much of which is refinanced through DRB @4.5% interest and under) as well as a 0% auto loan. My monthly loan payments total $1600. My question is about paying those down….up until now, my strategy has been to make additional payments toward my student loans since they have the highest interest rate. However, I currently have an extra $8k in cash that I’ve allotted for loans, and it crossed my mind that I could use that to completely pay off my car. Doing so would free-up cash flow (which could be used in the future toward student loans), and also make my monthly debt-income ratio significantly more favorable for mortgage and/or business lenders. So here are the options:
1) Pay down student loan #1 (4.5% interest, still would have $230 monthly payment)
2) Pay off student loan #2 completely (3.5% interest, would eliminate $60 monthly payment)
3) Pay off auto loan completely (0% interest, would eliminate $415 monthly payment)
I think option 2 is the worst, and as I previously mentioned, I’m leaning toward option 3 in order to free up cash flow for a mortgage and/or business loan in the next 12 months.
What do you (and your readers) think?
There’s no right answer. Every one of those options is a good one. There are two schools of thought on this topic. The first is to pay off the smallest debt first. Behaviorally, that helps you stay motivated and improves cash flow. The second is to pay off the highest interest rate first. Mathematically, that will reduce the total amount of interest paid and if all payments are the same, get you out of debt faster.
So I was in a position like yours a few years ago. There are a few things to consider, like how much the office loan will be, and what the rate will be. Of the options that you listed, I would go with #1, but how about option #4 and just stockpile the extra cash? After buying a few offices one thing I have learned is that the money on paper is always better that real life. You will appreciate having a little cushion for that first year after buying, then if you are rolling along and the cashflow is good, just use it to pay off one of the loans. It may cost a little in interest not to pay it off right now, but having the cushion when you buy a practice will be worth so much more. I’ve seen to many of my friends do dumb things because they didn’t have enough for payroll due to cashflow timing etc.
Completely agree. Usually when I can’t decide between my options it is because I haven’t thought of the correct option yet. You will not regret having an extra 8K lying around during a major life/career transition. Over time the right option for you will become clearer. Good luck. Enjoy being your own boss.
Thank you for the advice, everyone. It sounds like there is no right answer, as Dr. Dahle says. Financial planning during these first few years out of school has been complex for me and my colleagues when it comes to choosing between retirement saving vs. paying off loans vs. saving for big expenses, and now I’ve added more complexity into the mix by trying to decide on the right loan to pay off. I guess the main thing is to live well below my means, and eventually my retirement accounts, loans, and big expenses will take care of themselves.
First time poster – long time stalker of WCI Blog.
Tell me if Im wrong, but as a 25 year old that is about to start medical school (using student loans), I should be using the least amount of money possible. To finance a car would cost more over the first 4 years of school (when Id be living off of Uncle Sams loans) than leasing. So to me a lease was the better option because Id have to use less money to pay for the lease which is less money with 6.8% interest. Is my thought process on point?
In my opinion, a 25 year old about to start medical school should be driving as inexpensive of a car as possible. Thus neither something so expensive it has to be financed or something so new it can be leased.
Agree. Managed with my bike and the bus until finally landed a paycheck in internship.
This is such an Interesting survey. it would be nice to repeat this in Nigeria.