By Dr. Jim Dahle, WCI Founder
The American relationship with France has been complicated over the centuries. We fought against them in the mid-18th century during the Seven Years' War (known as the French and Indian War in North America). A few years later, Lafayette and his countrymen helped the British colonies achieve their independence. US armed forces eventually repaid them at the Somme in World War I and on Omaha Beach in World War II. However, Americans are still quick to bag on the French every time they don't want to help fight in an ill-conceived search for weapons of mass destruction. Remember “freedom fries?”
Many of us love visiting France (is there anything better than lunch on a French sidewalk?) Paris! Chamonix! The French Riviera! Carcassonne! In fact, it is the most-visited country in the world (we're second, though!) Despite that, there are significant cultural differences between the countries. We can learn a lot from them. Like anything in life, let's take what we find useful and leave the rest.
Work-Life Balance
Americans enjoy their hard-driving reputation. The culture in medicine is a great example. As one physician might say in America:
“You know the problem with Q2 call, right? You miss half the good cases.”
The French are far more interested in work-life balance than we are. The standard work week is not 40 hours; it's 35. They also get five weeks of vacation, at a minimum, and they actually take it. Americans average 11 days of PTO, and they feel guilty taking it. Shoveling your food down is frowned upon in France, as is eating while walking or driving—much less at your desk. Americans drink coffee so they can work harder. The French drink coffee to take a break. An American who works a lot of overtime is viewed as hard-working and productive. To the French, that person is NOT productive, because they can't get their work done during the 35-hour work week. You probably won't be surprised to learn that only 44% of French general practitioners are burned out compared to 51% of American family docs. The first thing I ask burned-out docs is: “Why don't you cut back to full-time?”
In France, people are much less defined by their work. You're not a doctor in France; you're a person who also happens to practice medicine. You don't ask people at cocktail parties, “What do you do?” And if you do, you wouldn't expect an answer that talked about a job. In fact, it's actually considered rude to ask someone what they do for a living when you first meet them.
More information here:
How Can I Make My Terrible Doctor Job Less Terrible?: Auntie Marge Explains It All
3 Stages of Life
Given that people don't define themselves by their work, it is far easier for people to retire from that work without losing part of their identity. The French view life as containing three stages. The first is childhood, adolescence, and education, where the focus is on schooling and learning. The second stage is where you raise your family and have a career. Then, there is this entire other stage that we would call retirement. Every French person expects to have a bunch of decades of their life when they are no longer working. This is why they're willing to pay so much in taxes to support a massive pension system. This is also why they get so upset when politicians start talking about pension reform.
Don't get me wrong. The French love to protest, and they are darn good at it. Perhaps if their kings had not been such totalitarian tyrants, this wouldn't be part of their culture. The people had a long fuse but when it finally blew, it went big. That first protest lasted for a decade and involved not only “eating cake” but beheading the king and just about anybody else who looked like they might have had a little bit of money or authority under the old regime.
At any rate, when the French protest, they really protest. President Emmanuel Macron skirted Parliament to make what is probably a very reasonable change to their retirement system, increasing the minimum retirement age from 62 to 64. The French went ballistic. The Eiffel Tower and the Louvre closed. The trains stopped running. The garbage collectors stopped picking up trash. Roads were blocked. Huge demonstrations with hundreds of thousands of people in the streets went on and on and on, and 13,000 cops were called in. The protestors pelted them with rocks and received tear gas back. There were more than 1,000 fires burning at a time.
The French people really, really like their retirement—almost as much as protesting, it seems. In America, we (obviously not all of us, but in general) idolize hard-working folks like Steve Jobs or Marissa Mayer, who worked more than most resident physicians. We view people like Warren Buffett and Jack Bogle who worked their entire life as admirable. In America, it seems the third stage is completely optional. If you don't do a good job saving and investing, it might not even be an option for you.
More information here:
5 Financial Considerations for American Doctors Wishing to Live Abroad
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Self-Responsibility vs. Social Responsibility
Americans come from people who were not afraid to go out and take a risk. Having grown up in The Last Frontier, I'm at the far end of a long list of people who left the comforts of home to head ever further west. In Alaska, we favorably view somebody who can go out and live in “the bush” and be self-sufficient. Being self-sufficient is so rare these days that multiple TV shows are made about it.
In America, we like the idea of being responsible for ourselves and getting the rewards for doing so successfully. French culture? Not so much. They want to be part of something bigger than themselves. They are much less likely to complain about their high taxes (46% of GDP compared to 26% in America) and to enjoy the benefits of those taxes (government-provided education, healthcare, pensions, etc.)
What Can We Learn from This
I don't think Americans are going to wholesale adopt French culture anytime soon. I'm not even sure that's a good idea. But there are some pearls here that we can learn from. Here are a few:
- You are not what you do—just like you aren't what you drive, wear, or live in.
- There is a third stage of life—the one after the kids leave home and you stop working for pay—that you should prepare for and enjoy.
- Take your vacation and ask for more; there are some things that cannot be put off until that third stage.
- It's OK to not work 40 hours a week, much less 60. It doesn't make you a bad person or even a bad doctor.
- It stinks to pay taxes, but it also stinks to pay for healthcare, tuition, and retirement. It's probably about the same amount of money either way.
What do you think? What useful lessons have you learned from French culture? Would America be better off adopting some of the French attitude? Comment below!
Definitely agree with you, Jim, that France, and many other European countries have a better work life balance than we do. didn’t know French culture thought it rude to ask what they did for a living! I usually see that your job is a role that you play in society overall, and would be something that you’d be proud of.
I always thought that our propensity toward hard work was forged in the expansion of our nation during the 1800s and propagated by manifest destiny in our history. in order to survive even uncharted territory of our nation, you had to work hard, and do your job just in order to survive. In contrast, most European countries didn’t have a large home country landmass to settle in their history but rather their expansion involved more conquering foreign countries, and their home countries would seem more a place of rest from their voyages exploring the world.
Also, this country was founded on separating from a government where you paid taxes and got nothing in return. That really hurts the idea of paying lots and taxes and relying on the government to see you through retirement.
But what the heck do I know? Jim, I’m just a doctor, not a historian!
Not sure the Iroquois Confederacy would agree with your assertion that American Westward expansion did not involve conquering foreign countries.
I’d guess our propensity to hard work had more to do with our Puritan/Protestant work ethic from the 1600s on than the Manifest Destiny of the 1800s. But who knows where that cultural aspect comes from.
Don’t sell the pioneers short. Conquering people, enslaving them and stealing their land is very hard work. Our ancestors were nothing if not industrious.
Hey, The Eiffel Tower was a great innovation; but that was over 130 years ago.
Vive l’Amérique!
Excellent post..
Yes, a lot many of us are sucked into the work worship culture and our identity tied to our jobs and ranks. Life is way more fulfilling when you get paid in Time which is always a better currency than the dollar. Any hobbies (Music, sports), leisures (Travel, events) or relationships need time and effort from an earlier age for them to be maintained and enjoyed for years into retirement. After working 60-80 hours a week for decades, it is difficult to suddenly start enjoying golfing all day, take long international trips or attend reunions when you haven’t spent time to built those interests / relationships while younger.
Also, I love your question “why don’t you cut down to full time?”
44% vs 51% burnout isn’t that much of an improvement for the degree of lifestyle differences.
My thought exactly.
Or the astronomical taxes.
Depends on who you are. If you’re coming from the perspective of a high-income earner, maybe not, though the guaranteed pension sounds good no matter your income level. For everyone else, it’s a boon. You generally get what you pay for.
Yep, 44% and 51% might not be statistically different which sort of proves my suspicion that burnout might have less to do with pay and work hours than we think. Just like feeling rich, it is probably all relative.
It actually is statistically significant. otherwise agree.
Good post. Crazy how rampant anti-French sentiment in the US is. Would point out that the French did more than sending LaFayette to “help” in the Revolution. The American Revolution was part of a greater global war between France and the British and the French WON the American independence. We kid ourselves that the British couldn’t beat a ragtag colonial militia. Interesting how that fact gets overlooked here.
I know it is a side point from main discussion, which is excellent. Thanks!
Yes, in a lot of ways the 7 Years War (which we know as the French and Indian War) was the first world war. Like the Anglo-French War of 1778-1883 (also known as the Bourbon War), it was part of the Second Hundred Years War. It was fought in North America, the Caribbean, Europe, and India diverting resources away from the North American theater. The British relied on American Loyalist support, which turned out to not really be there in the expected strength.
The distance from Great Britain was a huge factor, but was so was the fact that they were spread pretty thin. That said, the great power of the 1800s was the British Empire. Despite the Monroe Doctrine and the various Western Hemisphere enforcement actions related to it, America really didn’t come into its own until the 20th century.
You can learn a lot from the cousin of Britain. We are a distant branch with different motivations. The French have no ability to choose anything different within France itself. They are locked into jobs at an early age and with little to no option to advance. Time is all they can ask for. Their social knit society depends on participation alone. Or get citizen welfare for free.
They must ask the government if they can open a business and then it is allowed or not based on the competition of the area. Entrepreneur spirit is not risk or reward, but allowed.
Their culture is stable because they are stuck. No options. We have these problems too but mostly due to mental barriers of motivation to seek advancement and also moments of opportunity.
Life balance is the ability to say no and sacrifice for the choice you make. We have the ability to seek money more than any other culture and it is our downfall for when not balance with real living (all the other relational stuff).
It’s a multifaceted issue, to be sure. Americans’ collective work ethic has created a level of economic prosperity that much of the world quite literally envies. Our per capita GDP is 62% higher than that of France. America has been the powerhouse of innovation for decades now. France’s debt burden is so high that they truly are ‘stuck’, as you put it, with no easy way out. In that regard, Japan has been there for decades as well, for instance.
On the other hand, Americans, as a whole, are certainly workaholics compared to most of the developed world, and that has created problems. Vacation time goes unused. Marriages and families suffer. Eleven percent of those over the age of 12 are taking antidepressants. Those with substantial means (i.e., most readers of this site) are all too often obsessed with padding their already very secure economic future.
Much of this comes down to determining what’s really important in life. In America, it’s often economic prosperity. In France, it’s more often enjoyment of life.
I think most Americans who resent paying taxes do so because they get almost nothing for it.
My taxes go to funding a war in Ukraine (I have no idea how defending the Donbas helps me), ensuring my 13 year old daughter can get OTC birth control for free (as an endocrinologist, this terrifies me), paying for illegal immigrant’s college (while I pay off student loans), and for police that kneel to protesters.
As in other countries your taxes get you a pension and healthcare.
It’s really kind of all the same whether you pay 20% in taxes and pay your own health care and education or pay 30% in taxes and have the government cover those costs isn’t it?
Ever larger government programs and bureaucracies vs free markets and individual activities and decisions are not the same. Average income tax levels double or more are not the same. But if that’s what what a majority in a democracy want, that’s what they get.
“John Topher” (pseudonym – there is no John Topher MD… probably a good thing you used a pseudonym with that post….SHEESH….oh my goodness…. wowwwww).
1) The war in Ukraine directly affects everyone in the world. The United States is a global leader in foreign policy, like it or not. If you want to live in a more neutral place, the US is not one of them. Geopolitics and the importance of Russia are massive in this age. We are living in an interdependent world, and the instability created by Russia can easily lead to an escalation of catastrophic levels. I’m sure you want your children and family to be safe. Safety and law and order is a big thing is conservative circles, right? Like it or not, the US remains in a position of global influence, and it is expected to intervene often.
2) Would you prefer that she become impregnated against her will and forced to carry a baby to term? This just happened in Mississippi. Perhaps geo-tax-arbitrage is a good idea? (Here’s a link to a NY Post article, because I somehow guarantee you read the NY Post: https://nypost.com/2023/08/15/mississippi-rape-victim-13-gives-birth-after-abortion-ban/). Of greater concern for your patients, do you not believe as a practicing endocrinologist that contraception is something that should be taught/available? The AACE, of which I assume you’re a member, seems to disagree with your position on availability of birth control: https://www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/ensuring-affordable-access-to-hormonal-contraception
…(see Point #4 below for the freedom of speech, association, expression, etc Americans enjoy and the congruence and dissonance with broad police statements)…
3) “Illegal Immigrants” don’t get “free college” while you “pay student loans.” This is simply not true and is a really poor cheap political talking point. You could’ve taken advantage of many systems for college funding. This website discusses the beautiful PSLF program (devised during the George W. Bush administration– a man who I’m sure you love). Our nation is made up of all immigrants at some point except for Native and Indigenous Peoples. From where did your ancestors immigrate? When does one become a “real American”? Do you refuse to treat immigrants? Do you think everyone who gets a scholarship or grant or Pell Grant or GI Bill funding is a “leech” off the government? Most of the people who enlist in the armed forces now are recent immigrants or 1st Gen Americans keeping us safe (see: conservative principles and amygdala-based focus on law/order/safety and how immigrants help us stay safe).
4) The United States allows broad freedom of expression and speech, and even anonymity and pseudonyms. (I used my real name here, because I don’t care). Police are allowed to have a social conscience. Many of them are also, unfortunately, quite brutal as evidenced in numerous videotape evidence. I’m sure you believe, Dr. “Topher”, that freedom of speech, association, and expression is a vital and important tenet of the US Constitution, which I suspect you believe is an Originalist and infallible document.
Your googling of his (or her!) pseudonym to investigate who would say such unenlightened things just proves the point of not using a real name publicly on an comment section in a culture that will try to destroy your livelihood for having the “wrong” opinions.
Pretty sure interventionism isn’t a good foreign policy. It didn’t help in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. It only further drives this country into debt and perpetuates the military industrial complex. We have neither the rights nor the means to police the world. Spending billions in Ukraine while we have myriad of social issues and a staggering deficit is ridiculous.
Your comparisons to Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are incorrect. We were directly involved with boots on the ground in all of those places. Ukraine is a proxy war, which is the kind where someone else spills their blood, and as such is a benefit to the US both economically and politically. Especially when fighting against the remnants of the “Evil Empire” (credit to Patron Saint Ronald Reagan, hallowed be his name).
We will always have a myriad of social issues and staggering deficit. Better to fight a totalitarianism early, than late. Otherwise you end up with a world war, but with nuclear armed opponents this time. If you believe American values are worth anything, then fighting against totalitarianism is worth every penny.
Jason, I disagree with John but I believe that looking someone up to cancel them is worse than any of his opinions.
You never know when your own opinions won’t be “woke enough” for cancel culture
Agreed
Jason, to your third point, no, “most” enlisted personnel in the Armed Forces are not recent immigrants or first generation Americans. I led troops who were recent immigrants and first generation Americans. I was especially proud of some of my troops who naturalized while in uniform. But we simply do not have a majority of our enlisted personnel who are from the backgrounds you listed. It’s a sizable number, but hardly “most”.
Love this post, and I agree with most of it. You will anger about half of the readers who think you’re a flaming “lEfTisT” and the other half who will think you’re a stealth fascist, Jim. Ha! The problem with around ~40% of America is that they want to pay no tax but want to live a life like the French in retirement, and they consistently and paradoxically are persuaded to vote against their own interests and their own educational enlightenment and development. As we who are students of any good investing/saving strategy would agree (see: Boglehead philosophy, JL Collins, anything that’s not a slimeball AUM “money manager guy” or slick annuity peddler), it’s either incumbent upon 1) the saver/the individual, or 2) the State/the society, or 3) a combination of both to ensure that its people in a developed society are taken care of in retirement and not left to suffer. The American system is sadly failing its retirees. Most Americans are woefully under-invested. Both France and the US use a combination of #1, #2, and #3 above, but France and much of the EU and Scandinavia (ALL of which consistently score FAR higher than the US in quality of life, work/life balance, and HAPPINESS studies), focus more on #2 providing a safer and more robust social safety net. I don’t see the United States giving up much of its rugged “ME ME ME” and “MINE MINE MINE” mindset anytime soon. The people who read this incredible blog are likely in the top echelon of savvy investors/savers, and many are probably in the top 1% of income earners. I would surmise that this viewership probably skews toward the “ME ME ME” simply because they’ve been removed too long from the time period where they HAD to actually “live like a resident.” A “non sibi” collective societal action to shore up SS, do something to help the over-commercialization and commoditization of some elements of society, and actually ensure a robust safety net for seniors is considered “lEfTiSt” in the US these days. But it is rooted in fundamental principles of most democratic societies and even most religious orthodoxy that teaches people to not step all over the least among us. I really appreciate this article, and as always, you are the only thing in my email box that I usually read from cover to cover. Braviss!
PS: This article is fabulous. It will spur a lot of really fantastic discussion (and hopefully good debate…but I assume you’ll need to have like, maybe 3-3000 moderators on hand). Haha! I’m going to go have a croissant and dream of a baguette. (I eat way too many carbs….lay off me!)
Jason, your points get an A+!! Well said indeed. The changes to an entitlement mindset along with a new ridiculous in-your-face intolerance, and actually swaying towards a desire (conscious or not) towards authoritarianism is very scary indeed. 10-15 years ago, you couldn’t have even made this stuff up.
Hopefully…well you know the rest…
Jason, interesting take on societies, happiness, and national economic interests. A few points here. I’m going to assume you’re politically left: comments, degree in education, and phrase “collective societal action” are clues.
Since we are talking problems with America, let’s say ~60% of Americans (the clear obverse of your 40% number) are instead interested in working like the French (or less) and living like the top 10% of Americans in retirement and are flabbergasted as to why that’s impossible.
Abrahamic faiths by and large do provide for the poor, but the imperative is derived from building relationships with these people so that they may be served physically and spiritually. As governments seek to supplant the church in outreach, the spiritual, and thus human, needs will continue to be unmet. (My apologies to other religions which also do this. I’m just most familiar with Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.). Further, the local ecclesia is a better arbiter of destitution due to circumstances versus poverty due to indolence. James 1:27 describes taking care of orphans and widows during a century in which the husband was the largest producer of income.
Regarding happiness scales, top three “happiest” countries in the world…devastatingly homogenous demographically. If progressives want to point to Scandinavian countries as aspirational bastions of happiness, it’s gotta swallow the politically unpalatable fact that they’re also incredibly “undiverse.” Is the left going to advocate for societal homogeneity in the pursuit of happiness now?
I do not have anything against the French as people or the country. I don’t particularly like any government, but it is a democracy, so the people who live there get to choose what they want. Even with all the protests, the changes were legal under French law. If enough people in France wanted to change the law, they could do it.
That said, I would not want to live there. I have been there once, on business. The place we stayed was nice and the environment was pretty. But I can find nicer areas a short drive from home, with no long flights, passports or customs. As for lunch in a Paris cafe- I have never been to Paris, but I have eaten lunch many times. As long as the food is simple and healthy, I am good. No need to travel to another country to do something I do frequently at home, for far less cost and hassle.
That was a very long time ago. I do not envision myself as ever returning.
I bet you’re a lot of fun to travel with. 🙂
Hard to know, since I avoid it to the extent I can.
I would prefer a quiet library down the street over a trip to France. In fact, when I do travel I often seek out libraries, museums and bookstores. Given the number of great museums in the US that I have never seen, no need to leave the continent to see ones overseas.
Sure, there’s lots of places in the US just like the Louvre and the British Museum. Just like there are castles like Carcassonne and cathedrals like St. Paul’s. Mountains like the Matterhorn. Lakes like Lake Como. Food like Los Caracoles. No reason to go anywhere else for sure.
It does not have to be “just like” a particular museum or mountain.
We have museums and mountains here. Not identical to those overseas, but no foreign travel passports, visas or foreign languages needed. Not to mention the time invested in getting there, or the cost.
Heck, I have not been to all the great museums in NYC alone. Or in my own town. I should exhaust those before I feel the need for a transatlantic flight.
I know. But there’s nothing in New York that compares to the Louvre. That was my point. There’s nothing in the US that compares to St. Paul’s or St. Peter’s or Notre Dame (at least before the fire.) There’s nothing in the US that compares to Carcassonne or the London Tower or Caernafon or Warwick. There is no bike race in the US that compares to the Tour de France. If you want to see 500-4000 year old buildings, you’re going to have to leave the US. Want to see WWII sites in the US? Enjoy Pearl Harbor and Adak, but don’t expect an experience like you’ll get at Omaha or Utah Beach.
It’s probably easier to transport cuisine to the US, but all that other stuff requires one to travel.
I disagree that you should “exhaust” everything here you can see before traveling. You only have a limited amount of time on this sphere. You should spend it seeing the best stuff, wherever it might be. Besides, as you age travel becomes harder. You can still see the close stuff when you’re older and more frail, but the Louvre may then be out of reach for you.
I was a visiting professor at a French university hospital several years ago. After rounding with the residents, we went to the doctor’s dining room for lunch, and boy, did they know how to have lunch! First, the huge salad bar (the mackerel at the salad bar was a little strange). Then, the servers brought out the duck and the sauteed vegetables. After desert, all the doctors retired back to the lounge for about an hour. There was wine, beer on tap, and the residents were making cappuccinos as quickly as they could.
Dear all
I wish when we compare the 2 country it was so simple. But it not that black and white. I am a physician and worked in both countries. Yes lifestyle is paramount in France, but salary is at the worse for physicians here compared to the rest of Europe, and the population just doesn’t want to work anymore (a lot of reason but suspect because mainly that France -and Italy – have a very stagnant work-market place, plagued with anachronism/elitism and plain corruption sometimes . To give a example: France refuse to give my French medical license back unless I give up my american medical license….despite I was trained there until residency and beyond…
Hum!? I’m not sure this France or this USA still exist. Hard working Americans? With a labor participation rate almost at low historical levels? Social responsibility in France ?, when you see the yellow vest protesting to protect INDIVIDUAL INTERESTS, no the interests of the “community “ whatever this word means. And then the recent protest in which literally France burned from side to side. For American I doubt there is something to learn. In my only trip to Paris, besides missing a visit to the Musee d’ Orsay because they were on strike, I was appalled by the squalor of the suburbs of Paris(banlieue), by comparison inner cities in America are luxurious. There is a movie called “Athena”, in which culture are close to reality.
Absolutely, Luis. Both are broke. Both are run by godless people.
We can have a greater standard of living for more people, but the people first have to understand that those who control the money are controlling the society, as well. This is obvious to anyone paying attention.
As a result, I’m not optimistic about either society. The West was given up to bad leaders when they allowed the Babel utopians to lead them and lie to them, and they are now taking us into dystopia.
Excellent post and excellent topic for discussion!
From my perspective, this is not about competing between two cultures. American people and American circumstances are very different from the French’s .
The conversation should be about balance between work and private life and family. It’s a reminder that we could have other priorities. It’s a call to find our identity without needing to be in an MD role all the time. It’s about developing areas of interest outside medical practice.
After I retired three years ago, I never looked back. I fully enjoy my other roles. I feel great not having to act as a doctor. When your profession recedes into the background, your true identity can emerge. The French got that right!