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Survey: How many Physicians here also Precept Students?

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  • Avatar ChaseD702 
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    I’m trying to get a general sense of how many physicians act as medical preceptors. Do you do so through a university, a third-party agency, or other? What students do you accept (MD, DO, PA, NP, etc.)?

    I had a hell of a time setting up some of my electives last year, and thinking of ways to improve the current system for non-university rotations.

    #180213 Reply
    CordMcNally CordMcNally 
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    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 01/03/2017

    What kind of student are you? Most US MD and DO programs have established community preceptors.

    “But investing isn’t about beating others at their game. It’s about controlling yourself at your own game.”
    ― Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

    #180224 Reply
    Avatar SLC OB 
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    Status: Physician
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    I do but only on a special basis… it tends to be a lot of work.

    We have affiliations with UC Davis, UN Reno, Touro, etc. at our hospital but take “one offs” too with proper insurance etc.

     

    #180336 Reply
    Avatar ChaseD702 
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    Status: Student
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    Joined: 03/01/2018

    MD, but I’ve finished my rotations. I set up my entire last year of electives outside of the school, some through cutthroat rotation agencies and some one my own. It was definitely a lot of work on my end. Although, several of the preceptors I used said it wasn’t too much hassle on their end. Others have different stories.

    Yes, many US MD schools have networks, and DO seem to moreso now then in the past. IMGs definitely do not have this luxury. Even then, US students that wish to travel outside of their schools limited networks have to pay a heavy fee to set up outside electives.

    #180493 Reply
    Avatar Anne 
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    Status: Physician
    Posts: 770
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    MD, but I’ve finished my rotations. I set up my entire last year of electives outside of the school, some through cutthroat rotation agencies and some one my own. It was definitely a lot of work on my end. Although, several of the preceptors I used said it wasn’t too much hassle on their end. Others have different stories.

    Yes, many US MD schools have networks, and DO seem to moreso now then in the past. IMGs definitely do not have this luxury. Even then, US students that wish to travel outside of their schools limited networks have to pay a heavy fee to set up outside electives.

    Click to expand…

    It should be zero hassle on the preceptor end.  I would expect it to be work on the medical student’s end, they are the one benefitting.

    I precept medical students in an academic setting.  I like having them, especially when they are interested, but they are extra work.  They generally can’t do much that is truly helpful (unlike a resident), and they take extra time to teach (i.e. beyond that of having a resident on service) as there is so much new info for them.  I have time and I like them so I don’t mind but if I was in a high volume private practice it would be a strain without much benefit, so I can see why it’s difficult to set up outside electives.

    #180500 Reply
    Drop it into MD Drop it into MD 
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    I am into my 4th year out from residency and have had a student a majority of the time the past 3 years.  It is a pain.  They do slow us down.  It does make me have to work later and miss time with my family.  I do not think it impacts my volume much because I do not change my schedule but it does leave me less time to work on quality measures and other things like that.  But teaching makes me a better doc.  It keeps me learning better then any CME could.  Also some one taught me so the least I can do is pay back the favor for the 4 years of med school plus maybe the 3 more of residency.  I just signed up for another year.  I hope to keep it up as long as I can.  It may change as my kids grow up and I need more time for my family.

    #180515 Reply
    Liked by ChaseD702
    MPMD MPMD 
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    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1963
    Joined: 05/01/2017
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    MD, but I’ve finished my rotations. I set up my entire last year of electives outside of the school, some through cutthroat rotation agencies and some one my own. It was definitely a lot of work on my end. Although, several of the preceptors I used said it wasn’t too much hassle on their end. Others have different stories.

    Yes, many US MD schools have networks, and DO seem to moreso now then in the past. IMGs definitely do not have this luxury. Even then, US students that wish to travel outside of their schools limited networks have to pay a heavy fee to set up outside electives.

    Why would a US allopathic (or osteopathic for that matter) medical student want to travel outside of their school for anything other than a visiting elective? Away rotations are extremely common in EM, ortho, etc and tend to be actually relatively painless. There is certainly not a large cost aside from travel and accommodation.

    The incentive provided by a medical school to a non-affiliate attending to precept their students is usually not just small but actually negative. In general the attending gets paperwork, evaluations, and teaching responsibilities and in return they get only the gratitude of the student — if that is in fact in the offing. Attendings who do this are often not even recognized by the school or provided with evaluations of their teaching effectiveness.

    #180518 Reply
    Avatar ChaseD702 
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    Status: Student
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    Joined: 03/01/2018

    I am into my 4th year out from residency and have had a student a majority of the time the past 3 years.  It is a pain.  They do slow us down.  It does make me have to work later and miss time with my family.  I do not think it impacts my volume much because I do not change my schedule but it does leave me less time to work on quality measures and other things like that.  But teaching makes me a better doc.  It keeps me learning better then any CME could.  Also some one taught me so the least I can do is pay back the favor for the 4 years of med school plus maybe the 3 more of residency.  I just signed up for another year.  I hope to keep it up as long as I can.  It may change as my kids grow up and I need more time for my family.

    Click to expand…

    That’s a great point about keeping you informed as well as the student. The experience is definitely more involved than any CME. Although, I did have a preceptor mention that he received CME for precepting?

    #180533 Reply
    Avatar ChaseD702 
    Participant
    Status: Student
    Posts: 14
    Joined: 03/01/2018

    MD, but I’ve finished my rotations. I set up my entire last year of electives outside of the school, some through cutthroat rotation agencies and some one my own. It was definitely a lot of work on my end. Although, several of the preceptors I used said it wasn’t too much hassle on their end. Others have different stories.

    Yes, many US MD schools have networks, and DO seem to moreso now then in the past. IMGs definitely do not have this luxury. Even then, US students that wish to travel outside of their schools limited networks have to pay a heavy fee to set up outside electives.

    Why would a US allopathic (or osteopathic for that matter) medical student want to travel outside of their school for anything other than a visiting elective? Away rotations are extremely common in EM, ortho, etc and tend to be actually relatively painless. There is certainly not a large cost aside from travel and accommodation.

    The incentive provided by a medical school to a non-affiliate attending to precept their students is usually not just small but actually negative. In general the attending gets paperwork, evaluations, and teaching responsibilities and in return they get only the gratitude of the student — if that is in fact in the offing. Attendings who do this are often not even recognized by the school or provided with evaluations of their teaching effectiveness.

    Click to expand…

    The most common reason I have heard for US students would be a specialty they could not attain through their school, or to network in an area they would like to practice or apply for residency.

    Do you think there may be greater variance in the preceptor incentives than you have seen or experienced? I have come across some preceptors that gladly take on students for no financial gain, and others that take on 10-15 at a time to do paperwork and, I would assume, financial benefit.

    #180536 Reply
    The White Coat Investor The White Coat Investor 
    Keymaster
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 4070
    Joined: 05/13/2011

    I’m trying to get a general sense of how many physicians act as medical preceptors. Do you do so through a university, a third-party agency, or other? What students do you accept (MD, DO, PA, NP, etc.)?

    I had a hell of a time setting up some of my electives last year, and thinking of ways to improve the current system for non-university rotations.

    Click to expand…

    This is my biggest problem with many schools, predominantly DO schools and Caribbean schools. If the school doesn’t have set arrangements AT LEAST for the third year clerkships, what business do they have calling themselves medical schools? Why should students who are paying tens of thousands of dollars have to line up their own usually substandard rotations? I have students calling me all the time wanting to come to my ED to do their EM rotation. I tell them “No, go call up a big academic trauma center with a residency program.” That’s where they need to be rotating, not in my podunk low volume community ED.

    Not your fault, but you’re obviously quickly learning why I feel this way. You don’t need much help from the med school with the first couple of years between online lectures, question banks, and review books. You need a solid 3rd year experience. I don’t how they can justify charging you tuition and then making you line up your own rotations. It’s garbage.

    Site/Forum Owner, Emergency Physician, Blogger, and author of The White Coat Investor: A Doctor's Guide to Personal Finance and Investing
    Helping Those Who Wear The White Coat Get A "Fair Shake" on Wall Street since 2011

    The White Coat Investor The White Coat Investor 
    Keymaster
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 4070
    Joined: 05/13/2011

    I am into my 4th year out from residency and have had a student a majority of the time the past 3 years.  It is a pain.  They do slow us down.  It does make me have to work later and miss time with my family.  I do not think it impacts my volume much because I do not change my schedule but it does leave me less time to work on quality measures and other things like that.  But teaching makes me a better doc.  It keeps me learning better then any CME could.  Also some one taught me so the least I can do is pay back the favor for the 4 years of med school plus maybe the 3 more of residency.  I just signed up for another year.  I hope to keep it up as long as I can.  It may change as my kids grow up and I need more time for my family.

    Click to expand…

    That’s a great point about keeping you informed as well as the student. The experience is definitely more involved than any CME. Although, I did have a preceptor mention that he received CME for precepting?

    Click to expand…

    I was given that by a DO school before. They sent a nice certificate and some CME credit. But no money. I mean, they charge the student $50K. I teach them for a month and I get nothing? You’d think I’d at least get $3K or so of that.

    Site/Forum Owner, Emergency Physician, Blogger, and author of The White Coat Investor: A Doctor's Guide to Personal Finance and Investing
    Helping Those Who Wear The White Coat Get A "Fair Shake" on Wall Street since 2011

    #180563 Reply
    Liked by Vagabond MD
    Zzyzx Zzyzx 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 113
    Joined: 09/24/2018

    I’m trying to get a general sense of how many physicians act as medical preceptors. Do you do so through a university, a third-party agency, or other? What students do you accept (MD, DO, PA, NP, etc.)?

    I had a hell of a time setting up some of my electives last year, and thinking of ways to improve the current system for non-university rotations.

    Click to expand…

    if you rotate externally it’s best to use GME office of nearest med school.

    It’s psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I’ll get a saw.

    #180565 Reply
    MPMD MPMD 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1963
    Joined: 05/01/2017
    Click to expand…

    The most common reason I have heard for US students would be a specialty they could not attain through their school, or to network in an area they would like to practice or apply for residency.

    Do you think there may be greater variance in the preceptor incentives than you have seen or experienced? I have come across some preceptors that gladly take on students for no financial gain, and others that take on 10-15 at a time to do paperwork and, I would assume, financial benefit.

    Click to expand…

    There is definitely wide variance in enthusiasm of attendings but I don’t think there is much variation in incentives given to preceptors.

    I’m still a little bit confused by what you are talking about. Lots of students do “away” rotations for a variety of reasons but these are mostly handled through VSAS and the barriers seem mostly to be scheduling related not financial or inability to find preceptors. My shop takes all kinds of visiting students who go through the right channels.

    I think you’re talking about a bunch of different things. If a student wants to do a core rotation “away” so to speak that would not be a good idea for the most part.

    WCI hit the nail on the head above and I share his emotions on this. The bait-and-switch pulled on students with some of these schools borders on outright fraud and I would be very worried about a class-action suit if I were some of these places. I actually think there’s a bit of a rent-seeking shadow business model at some of these for profit shops where they charge you plenty of money and then want students to sort of pathetically appeal to practicing attendings sense of duty to provide clinical experience.

    It’s easy to read Jim’s words as harsh but as a faculty member who has now been on staff at 2 med schools I agree with him, if you can’t guarantee high quality clinical experiences for your clinical students in what sense are you a functioning med school?

    #180628 Reply
    Vagabond MD Vagabond MD 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 3011
    Joined: 01/21/2016

    I am into my 4th year out from residency and have had a student a majority of the time the past 3 years.  It is a pain.  They do slow us down.  It does make me have to work later and miss time with my family.  I do not think it impacts my volume much because I do not change my schedule but it does leave me less time to work on quality measures and other things like that.  But teaching makes me a better doc.  It keeps me learning better then any CME could.  Also some one taught me so the least I can do is pay back the favor for the 4 years of med school plus maybe the 3 more of residency.  I just signed up for another year.  I hope to keep it up as long as I can.  It may change as my kids grow up and I need more time for my family.

    Click to expand…

    That’s a great point about keeping you informed as well as the student. The experience is definitely more involved than any CME. Although, I did have a preceptor mention that he received CME for precepting?

    Click to expand…

    I was given that by a DO school before. They sent a nice certificate and some CME credit. But no money. I mean, they charge the student $50K. I teach them for a month and I get nothing? You’d think I’d at least get $3K or so of that.

    Click to expand…

    I totally agree with the above. And don’t even ask me how I respond when an NP or chiropractor student wants to have a radiology rotation with us.

    "Wealth is the slave of the wise man and the master of the fool.” -Seneca the Younger

    #180634 Reply
    Avatar LizOB 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 299
    Joined: 06/05/2017

    Serious question, if the people actually doing the teaching aren’t getting paid, where does all that tuition money GO?

    I have been approached by NP students wanting to do rotations. Compensation: a $25 target gift card. That’s almost more insulting that nothing. Again, these people are paying tuition. You would think as paying customers the school would at least arrange rotations.

    #180636 Reply

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