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New job negotiation

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  • Avatar avocado_gtt 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 07/31/2019

    Long time lurker, first time poster

    Discovered the WCI network later than I’d like but here I am

    First job post training went sour after 2 years; now looking for another job, this time very part-time as I am feeling burned out. For background info, I precipitated myself into my first job and feel like I was taken advantage off big time and now am very afraid of letting the same thing happen again.

    Interviewed with a private practice group. Without going in too much detail, we are now at the point where I asked them the financial details and they are ok with however much I want to work and are also okay if I want to be paid via 1099. They want to talk to me on the phone to see what I am looking for.

    I feel this is a trap. I don’t want to say a specific value and would like them to make an offer first.

    How should I go about this? Is there a political, polite and non committing answer I can give if they straight up ask me “how much do you want to get paid”? I don’t feel like I have enough experience to really know what I am looking for yet in terms of salary, benefits, etc etc. I don’t want to be taken advantage off and want to be paid my fair value.

    Any advice would be much appreciated

    #235204 Reply
    Avatar SLC OB 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 559
    Joined: 06/23/2018

    You need to get the MGMA data on your specialty and the compensation for your geographic location. That will at least give you a starting point.

    As for benefits, you may not get any as 1099, which means you should make a little more. If you want benefits, then you need to look at the standard and negotiate those into your agreement.

    Always aim higher than you want and then you look like the good guy coming down to the middle ground (that you wanted realistically anyway).

    Good luck!

    #235211 Reply
    Liked by wonka31
    White.Beard.Doc White.Beard.Doc 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 937
    Joined: 02/06/2016

    When you have the first conversation on the phone, ask them what they are looking for.  Listen and try to find common ground. If what they need and what you want can mesh, then you have a good match.

    The first conversation should not be about compensation.  The first conversation should be about clinical details.  What do they look for in a good match for their practice?  What kind of hours might work for them?  How flexible are they with reduced hours?  What are the coverage arrangements?  How would you fit into that coverage scheme as a part-timer?

    If, and only if, the clinical details make sense, then you move on to discussing compensation.  That often takes place in a second conversation.  A full-time 1099 doc should make roughly 20-30% more per hour than a W-2 doc with full benefits.  As a 1099, you will pay double FICA and medicare taxes as you have to pay the employer portion as well.  You typically have to pay for your own health insurance.  However, if you are very part-time, then the 1099 hourly compensation is more like a per diem employee and that same level of hourly premium pay above a W-2 salary may not apply.

    #235215 Reply
    Avatar avocado_gtt 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 07/31/2019

    Is it worth to pay for the MGMA data? I had researched it online and it seemed to expensive. If I paid someone to analyze my contract, would they provide me with such data?

    #235217 Reply
    Avatar avocado_gtt 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 07/31/2019

    When you have the first conversation on the phone, ask them what they are looking for.  Listen and try to find common ground. If what they need and what you want can mesh, then you have a good match.

    The first conversation should not be about compensation.  The first conversation should be about clinical details.  What do they look for in a good match for their practice?  What kind of hours might work for them?  How flexible are they with reduced hours?  What are the coverage arrangements?  How would you fit into that coverage scheme as a part-timer?

    If, and only if, the clinical details make sense, then you move on to discussing compensation.  That often takes place in a second conversation.  A full-time 1099 doc should make roughly 20-30% more per hour than a W-2 doc with full benefits.  As a 1099, you will pay double FICA and medicare taxes as you have to pay the employer portion as well.  You typically have to pay for your own health insurance.  However, if you are very part-time, then the 1099 hourly compensation is more like a per diem employee and that same level of hourly premium pay above a W-2 salary may not apply.

    Click to expand…

    we have had a few conversations about the clinical details including 2 site visits so i think i know what they need – i got the impression that they are super short staffed and any help is welcome.

    they are now asking me what i want as part of my employment deal which I am not too sure about..

    #235218 Reply
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 3036
    Joined: 09/18/2018

    “ I asked them the financial details and they are ok with however much I want to work and are also okay if I want to be paid via 1099. They want to talk to me on the phone to see what I am looking for.”

    Not too sure sure you are both on the same page. You asked about financial, they answered you can work as much as you want. What exactly is the job you are responsible for? Can’t grasp a “drop in” or what they are looking for either.

    Job, location, compensation! Your approach (or at least the posting) is a recipe for misunderstandings and disappointments. MGMA can give you benchmarks for full time physicians.
    Try, “Can you elaborate on how your compensation model is structured? Base plus incentive ? Or do you prefer a draw structure and production metrics? I would appreciate a quick overview of how the group addresses compensation.”

    #235220 Reply
    Avatar avocado_gtt 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 07/31/2019
    Earnest refinancing bonus

    “ I asked them the financial details and they are ok with however much I want to work and are also okay if I want to be paid via 1099. They want to talk to me on the phone to see what I am looking for.”

    Not too sure sure you are both on the same page. You asked about financial, they answered you can work as much as you want. What exactly is the job you are responsible for? Can’t grasp a “drop in” or what they are looking for either.

    Job, location, compensation! Your approach (or at least the posting) is a recipe for misunderstandings and disappointments. MGMA can give you benchmarks for full time physicians.
    Try, “Can you elaborate on how your compensation model is structured? Base plus incentive ? Or do you prefer a draw structure and production metrics? I would appreciate a quick overview of how the group addresses compensation.”

    Click to expand…

    good point. i will explain myself a little better. this would be a new thing for the group. they need some help to relief the partners as they just lost a couple of docs for out of the ordinary circumstances  and they have never really hired anyone else in such terms. the position is inpatient and shift work so they essentially told me: you promise us a certain amount of weeks per year and we will pay you “X”

    they are figuring out the details of such arrangement. i told them i want to work whatever how many weeks and they want to talk to me about what employment scenario i am looking for –  i am not sure if they mean how much i want to make or benefits or what.

    i don’t want to be the first one to say a number for my value – as I feel like that’s how I get trapped

    #235232 Reply
    Avatar ZZZ 
    Participant
    Status: Spouse
    Posts: 700
    Joined: 06/18/2018

    “I don’t really know what I am looking for yet in terms of salary, benefits, etc etc. I don’t want to be taken advantage off and want to be paid my fair value.”

    You have 11 years or more of post high-school education and you’re ashamed/embarassed/uncertain as to how much compensation you want for the skilled work you can do? You shouldn’t be, and having worked before, you must have an idea of reasonable comp for your time is.

    Surely you have some doctor friends who do what you do such that you know what comparable compensation structures are for your specialty.

    How do you know you were taken advantage of at your last job if you apparently have no idea what reasonable compensation is for what you do?

    You want to work ‘very part time’? So, you’re probably going to get x$/day as a 1099 and probably be responsible for your own benefits. What’s the typical daily locums rate in your specialty in your area? The group knows how much they’ll pay for a day of work. Ask for less than that and they’ll give you less. Ask for more and they’ll give you the number they had in mind. Ask for a couple hundred bucks a day more than the typical locums rate.

    Sorry you’re burned out.

    #235233 Reply
    Avatar ZZZ 
    Participant
    Status: Spouse
    Posts: 700
    Joined: 06/18/2018

    “i don’t want to be the first one to say a number for my value – as I feel like that’s how I get trapped”

    Then say a really high number and see what happens.

    Go watch a couple episodes of Pawn Stars, you might awaken your haggling skills.

    #235235 Reply
    Liked by Zaphod, FunkDoc83
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 3036
    Joined: 09/18/2018

    “Ask for a couple hundred bucks a day more than the typical locums rate.”

    Locums rate may include some expenses being paid as well if they have to bring in someone external.
    For you, consider taking a look at locums opportunities as well. It pays the bills. Might be your alternative for cash when you need it.

    #235238 Reply
    Avatar JBME 
    Participant
    Status: Spouse
    Posts: 525
    Joined: 03/26/2018

    never ever throw out a specific #. Instead what you should do is research what you think is fair. Additionally, figure out for yourself what your absolute minimum would have to be in order for you personally to feel fairly compensated and feel you’re not getting ripped off. Then ,instead of throwing out that # or a # higher than it, you give a range. Don’t make it a huge range but wide enough to make them feel you are flexible enough…personally I’d make the range between $10-$20k. So if you decide your absolute minimum is $250k, when they ask about compensation, you first try to get them to give a #. If you aren’t successful, you say you are open to working with them and exploring all of the benefits provided but your general working range is $250-$270k.

    #235245 Reply
    q-school q-school 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 2629
    Joined: 05/07/2017

    you seem like a very gentle person.

    take some time to think about what you are afraid of.

    i think they want you to work for them and don’t know how to proceed, based on your description.

    so at least as i hear you, it seems like a reasonable fit for you culturally.

    you don’t want to burn out.

    so offer that you would like to work (whatever) 3-5 shifts per week.  you will give them four weeks notice of which shifts you will work.

    as for compensation, it always depends on the amount of work done in fee for service universe.  are you sure they won’t dump everything on you with two hours left in your shift?  you would probably like to be compensated if you have to stay late.  is there a way to track how work is assigned?  figure out what their shift rate is and ask for 1.5-2x depending on workload and needs and flexibility.    if they want you to work with short notice, they should have a compensation arrangement that reflects that.  you should have ability to decline short notice requests.  do you want to stay long term?   maybe you negotiate differently.

    i think respectfully, it would be helpful for you to write it down-for your sake and theirs.  i believe this will make you less nervous.

    maybe this is not helpful to you at all.  it’s hard to guess what someone is looking for.

    good luck!  i hope you find a way to have a satisfying professional career and stay healthy!

     

    #235246 Reply
    Avatar octopus85 
    Participant
    Status: Resident
    Posts: 229
    Joined: 08/13/2017

    OP, you seem almost irrationally scared of this. It’s not a big deal – have you never bought, like, a used bike on craigslist and had to negotiate the price? It’s a pretty common activity, and you might want to give some thought as to why you’re finding yourself feeling so intimidated.

    MGMA data costs a few hundred bucks, right? Clearly it won’t take much to make that worth it. Buy it.

    There are no hard-and-fast rules. You seem to be against being the first to name a number, but some people argue that being the first to name a high number is good, because it “anchors” the negotiation around that number. Others would say that it’s better to let the other party name their number, first.

    It’s like dating: you could be the best-looking, smartest, most charming person in the world, but you’ll still find potential partners who want nothing to do with you.

    Figure out what you think you’re worth (based on data sources), decide for yourself what your min and ideal pay rates are, and try your best to negotiate for that. Good luck.

     

    #235262 Reply
    Liked by ZZZ
    Avatar avocado_gtt 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 07/31/2019

    thanks guys for the replies.

    i will stop being scared and ashamed of asking for what i want – which is really on point what’s happening with me.. not sure why!

    thanks again

    #235344 Reply
    Liked by mkintx
    childay childay 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1009
    Joined: 01/09/2016
    If I paid someone to analyze my contract, would they provide me with such data?

    Click to expand…

    You got some good advice here.  Not having used any of the contract review folks my assumption is that they do have the data.  Not sure if that is cheaper than buying it yourself though.  I don’t think you have to go in with a number initially.  What you want to know is how you would be paid.  Per shift?  Hourly?  Productivity?  And of course all the details of the job, patient assignment, workload, expectations, etc etc

    #235383 Reply

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