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  • fatlittlepig fatlittlepig 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1193
    Joined: 01/26/2017

    Not really because the longest that I kick the can down the road for my DCP is 5 years.  The death of TPMG will be a slow death.  It’s not going to be all of a sudden.  I.e. just like social security when social security goes in the “red” the payments are just reduced.  The same thing will happen to TPMG’s pension…it will be done subtly at first.   The easiest is to not give raises and allow the inflationary pressure reduce the pension obligation…then it will be actual reduction in payment.

     

    In terms of the report of the accounting change I have it right here in front of me.  Our previous account was E&Y.  The report is from 2012 auditing 2011 financials.  page 28 specifically last page of the report.  It goes through the issues that E&Y has with the audit.  I am hesitant to just scan and post given the confidential nature of these packets.  But I assure you that I’m not making it up.  Then Bam 2013 we switch to our current accounting firm.   I mean who the f*ck is Moss_Adams?  We were with E&Y and we switch to this bit player as compared To E&Y? That is not good.

    Click to expand…

    Has your bitterness over the Kaiser practice environment colored your impression of the financials? Anyways thanks for the analysis, this was very interesting for the Fatlittlepig

    #222664 Reply
    Avatar skeptic 
    Participant
    Status: Retired
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 05/09/2019

    Not really because the longest that I kick the can down the road for my DCP is 5 years.  The death of TPMG will be a slow death.  It’s not going to be all of a sudden.  I.e. just like social security when social security goes in the “red” the payments are just reduced.  The same thing will happen to TPMG’s pension…it will be done subtly at first.   The easiest is to not give raises and allow the inflationary pressure reduce the pension obligation…then it will be actual reduction in payment.

     

    In terms of the report of the accounting change I have it right here in front of me.  Our previous account was E&Y.  The report is from 2012 auditing 2011 financials.  page 28 specifically last page of the report.  It goes through the issues that E&Y has with the audit.  I am hesitant to just scan and post given the confidential nature of these packets.  But I assure you that I’m not making it up.  Then Bam 2013 we switch to our current accounting firm.   I mean who the f*ck is Moss_Adams?  We were with E&Y and we switch to this bit player as compared To E&Y? That is not good.

    Click to expand…

    Has your bitterness over the Kaiser practice environment colored your impression of the financials? Anyways thanks for the analysis, this was very interesting for the Fatlittlepig

    Click to expand…

    Not really, I’m not bitter about the practice environment of TPMG.  I’m resigned to it.  The whole industry is this way.  If you look at the entire health care industry we are ruled by practice guidelines.  Now practice guidelines are very useful for the typical clinical case however that’s not where I believe my utility is.  My utility is at the edge cases.  One has to understand the fundamentals of whatever practice specialty one is in and constantly stay on top of the literature to be able to build from first principles to the edge cases.  That edge is what I see being threatened.

     

    Back to the financial state of the pension, look everyone here is pretty financially literate and savy.  Do you think that the defined benefit of our pension is actually financially viable in the health care space?  (We as a company are going to be able to pay somewhere from 40-50% of the salary of every retiring TPMG physician until they die (actually many times it will be the death of the spouse that ends the obligation)  We are not in technology where there are fat margins…we are in healthcare which just doesn’t have great margins.  I mean you truly believe that KFH is going to be okay in funding this huge liability (which will only grow due to demographics of the hiring at TPMG and the inevitble increase in each retiree’s lengthening longevity?

    #222666 Reply
    Avatar skeptic 
    Participant
    Status: Retired
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 05/09/2019

    @morbo,

     

    I understand the same as you in terms of the calculation of pension assets and liabilities.  I would like your dissection of the current modeled return on plan assets section of the pension.  Is the current pension, actually getting 7%?  In addition, if one looks at the entire pension obligation it is all 5 columns of the table that labels our pension obligation.  i.e. one cannot parse out physician from the other columns i.e. employees covered by CBA, the physician SRP, VEba, and other porst retirement benefit plans since these are all obligations of TPMG,  i.e. I don’t believe you can  rob peter to pay paul.  So if one looks at all the deficits in all the columns things get pretty pessimistic.  Is that how you read it?

     

    I’m not trying to be chicken little…I’m really trying to get an true sense of what the pension’s true obligations are because inherent to this entire discussion is that retirees that exit before the gates come crashing down are golden…it’s those that are locked out that end up getting screwed.  I think that this is why I distrust so much when leadership tells me that the pension is fine since they are older than me and so it’s in their vested interest to keep the gates open until they slide through.

    #222672 Reply
    Avatar Morbo 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 15
    Joined: 04/10/2019

    Not really because the longest that I kick the can down the road for my DCP is 5 years.  The death of TPMG will be a slow death.  It’s not going to be all of a sudden.  I.e. just like social security when social security goes in the “red” the payments are just reduced.  The same thing will happen to TPMG’s pension…it will be done subtly at first.   The easiest is to not give raises and allow the inflationary pressure reduce the pension obligation…then it will be actual reduction in payment.

     

    In terms of the report of the accounting change I have it right here in front of me.  Our previous account was E&Y.  The report is from 2012 auditing 2011 financials.  page 28 specifically last page of the report.  It goes through the issues that E&Y has with the audit.  I am hesitant to just scan and post given the confidential nature of these packets.  But I assure you that I’m not making it up.  Then Bam 2013 we switch to our current accounting firm.   I mean who the f*ck is Moss_Adams?  We were with E&Y and we switch to this bit player as compared To E&Y? That is not good.

    Click to expand…

    Has your bitterness over the Kaiser practice environment colored your impression of the financials? Anyways thanks for the analysis, this was very interesting for the Fatlittlepig

    Click to expand…

    Not really, I’m not bitter about the practice environment of TPMG.  I’m resigned to it.  The whole industry is this way.  If you look at the entire health care industry we are ruled by practice guidelines.  Now practice guidelines are very useful for the typical clinical case however that’s not where I believe my utility is.  My utility is at the edge cases.  One has to understand the fundamentals of whatever practice specialty one is in and constantly stay on top of the literature to be able to build from first principles to the edge cases.  That edge is what I see being threatened.

     

    Back to the financial state of the pension, look everyone here is pretty financially literate and savy.  Do you think that the defined benefit of our pension is actually financially viable in the health care space?  (We as a company are going to be able to pay somewhere from 40-50% of the salary of every retiring TPMG physician until they day (actually many times it will be the death of the spouse that ends the obligation)  We are not in technology where there are fat margins…we are in healthcare which just doesn’t have great margins.  I mean you truly believe that KFH is going to be okay in funding this huge liability (which will only grow due to demographics of the hiring at TPMG and the inevitble increase in each retiree’s lengthening longevity?

    Click to expand…

    I think it is likely we will get what we have earned up to this point personally (I.e whatever it says your current earned pension is in Netbenefits under Plan 1) unless TPMG completely goes under.

     

    If the pension is not viable, I suspect the first thing you will see is withdrawing the pension from new hires.  Another thing they could do is reduce future accumulation of pension, like from now on you only get 0.5% per year of service rather than 1%, or from now on you don’t accumulate any additional pension.

     

    if TPMG remains solvent, I think it unlikely that they take away pension you have already earned.  I actually don’t think that is legal.

     

    If they ultimately freeze any increase in pension, maybe that would be your cue to retire.  You should still get what you’ve earned.

    #222676 Reply
    Avatar skeptic 
    Participant
    Status: Retired
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 05/09/2019

    How the hell do you change your status?  I am not retired…although I guess you could call me partially so since I’m not a full FTE anymore:)  Is there a status of “comfortably numb from being a part timer”?

    #222678 Reply
    Avatar skeptic 
    Participant
    Status: Retired
    Posts: 7
    Joined: 05/09/2019

    Not really because the longest that I kick the can down the road for my DCP is 5 years.  The death of TPMG will be a slow death.  It’s not going to be all of a sudden.  I.e. just like social security when social security goes in the “red” the payments are just reduced.  The same thing will happen to TPMG’s pension…it will be done subtly at first.   The easiest is to not give raises and allow the inflationary pressure reduce the pension obligation…then it will be actual reduction in payment.

     

    In terms of the report of the accounting change I have it right here in front of me.  Our previous account was E&Y.  The report is from 2012 auditing 2011 financials.  page 28 specifically last page of the report.  It goes through the issues that E&Y has with the audit.  I am hesitant to just scan and post given the confidential nature of these packets.  But I assure you that I’m not making it up.  Then Bam 2013 we switch to our current accounting firm.   I mean who the f*ck is Moss_Adams?  We were with E&Y and we switch to this bit player as compared To E&Y? That is not good.

    Click to expand…

    Has your bitterness over the Kaiser practice environment colored your impression of the financials? Anyways thanks for the analysis, this was very interesting for the Fatlittlepig

    Click to expand…

    Not really, I’m not bitter about the practice environment of TPMG.  I’m resigned to it.  The whole industry is this way.  If you look at the entire health care industry we are ruled by practice guidelines.  Now practice guidelines are very useful for the typical clinical case however that’s not where I believe my utility is.  My utility is at the edge cases.  One has to understand the fundamentals of whatever practice specialty one is in and constantly stay on top of the literature to be able to build from first principles to the edge cases.  That edge is what I see being threatened.

     

    Back to the financial state of the pension, look everyone here is pretty financially literate and savy.  Do you think that the defined benefit of our pension is actually financially viable in the health care space?  (We as a company are going to be able to pay somewhere from 40-50% of the salary of every retiring TPMG physician until they day (actually many times it will be the death of the spouse that ends the obligation)  We are not in technology where there are fat margins…we are in healthcare which just doesn’t have great margins.  I mean you truly believe that KFH is going to be okay in funding this huge liability (which will only grow due to demographics of the hiring at TPMG and the inevitble increase in each retiree’s lengthening longevity?

    Click to expand…

    I think it is likely we will get what we have earned up to this point personally (I.e whatever it says your current earned pension is in Netbenefits under Plan 1) unless TPMG completely goes under.

     

    If the pension is not viable, I suspect the first thing you will see is withdrawing the pension from new hires.  Another thing they could do is reduce future accumulation of pension, like from now on you only get 0.5% per year of service rather than 1%, or from now on you don’t accumulate any additional pension.

     

    if TPMG remains solvent, I think it unlikely that they take away pension you have already earned.  I actually don’t think that is legal.

     

    If they ultimately freeze any increase in pension, maybe that would be your cue to retire.  You should still get what you’ve earned.

    Click to expand…

    This actually seems very reasonable outcome to me.  The issue that I see facing the pension is that I was hired in the early 2000’s…which was the beginning of the expansion of physician hiring.  This demographic balloon will hit the pension obligation in terms of sheer numbers which may be the tipping point of liability versus funding.   I’m utterly confused about how to model out this pension obligation for the viability of the pension and this is what I’m trying to position for.

     

    I’m intrigued about the whole megabackdoor roth discussion above as it relates to putting it into an IRA rather than in the 401K for the option value of being able to access early if I eject early.  I enjoy this discussion since I have so few people to talk to at work about these issues.  Every one seems to want to just believe that everything is going to be okay and that is just not a realistic way of approaching this.  Thanks a bunch!

    #222680 Reply
    Hank Hank 
    Moderator
    Status: Attorney
    Posts: 1395
    Joined: 03/27/2017

    How the hell do you change your status?  I am not retired…although I guess you could call me partially so since I’m not a full FTE anymore:)  Is there a status of “comfortably numb from being a part timer”?

    Click to expand…

    From a desktop browser, click on “My Profile” in the upper right hand side of the web page, then click “edit”.

    #222681 Reply
    Avatar Morbo 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 15
    Joined: 04/10/2019
    Click to expand…

    This actually seems very reasonable outcome to me.  The issue that I see facing the pension is that I was hired in the early 2000’s…which was the beginning of the expansion of physician hiring.  This demographic balloon will hit the pension obligation in terms of sheer numbers which may be the tipping point of liability versus funding.   I’m utterly confused about how to model out this pension obligation for the viability of the pension and this is what I’m trying to position for.

     

    I’m intrigued about the whole megabackdoor roth discussion above as it relates to putting it into an IRA rather than in the 401K for the option value of being able to access early if I eject early.  I enjoy this discussion since I have so few people to talk to at work about these issues.  Every one seems to want to just believe that everything is going to be okay and that is just not a realistic way of approaching this.  Thanks a bunch!

    Click to expand…

    Regarding your prior question about the 7% estimated return, again I’m not an expert but it doesn’t seem completely unreasonable to me, especially because I’m assuming they are using nominal return (since they also include an expected inflation rate of 2.5%).  7% nominal return with 2.5% inflation is 4.39% real return, which is a pretty typical estimate you tend to see when people are trying to predict the future. Of course, it could be completely wrong, you just don’t know.

    In terms of the demographics, that is all included in their calculations, which is why they need actuaries to calculate all this stuff.  It also appears that there are laws as to how to calculate interest rates based on when the money is “due” (<5 years, 5-20 years, > 20 years).  I don’t really understand it, but I would assume it’s to account for the issues you are concerned about. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/26/1.430(h)(2)-1

    Regarding the Megabackdoor Roth, my conclusion was that it makes very little difference if you go with the 401k route vs IRA route.  Because you have the ability to rollover your Roth 401k to Roth IRA upon separation from TPMG, it eliminates almost every meaningful disadvantage of the Roth 401k (the big ones being RMDs and withdrawals of contributions prior to age 60).  It’s important to have a Roth IRA open and funded because you want it to be at least 5 years old by the time you retire, but you can do this via the regular backdoor Roth IRA if you don’t already have one.  There’s one slight benefit you can get from the IRA, and that is that you can accumulate bonuses by moving the money around between brokerages.  Also, you can use the balances to qualify for things like Bank of America’s Preferred Rewards program if you have a Roth IRA with Merrill Edge.  The other issue is that tax law could change in the future, so if they disallowed rollovers between Roth 401k and Roth IRA for some reason, then you would be stuck with RMDs, etc.

     

    edit: also, the other issue is fund selection is typically better with an IRA, but with the existence of Brokeragelink, I believe this is a non-issue.

    #222690 Reply
    fatlittlepig fatlittlepig 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1193
    Joined: 01/26/2017

    @morbo,

     

    I understand the same as you in terms of the calculation of pension assets and liabilities.  I would like your dissection of the current modeled return on plan assets section of the pension.  Is the current pension, actually getting 7%?  In addition, if one looks at the entire pension obligation it is all 5 columns of the table that labels our pension obligation.  i.e. one cannot parse out physician from the other columns i.e. employees covered by CBA, the physician SRP, VEba, and other porst retirement benefit plans since these are all obligations of TPMG,  i.e. I don’t believe you can  rob peter to pay paul.  So if one looks at all the deficits in all the columns things get pretty pessimistic.  Is that how you read it?

     

    I’m not trying to be chicken little…I’m really trying to get an true sense of what the pension’s true obligations are because inherent to this entire discussion is that retirees that exit before the gates come crashing down are golden…it’s those that are locked out that end up getting screwed.  I think that this is why I distrust so much when leadership tells me that the pension is fine since they are older than me and so it’s in their vested interest to keep the gates open until they slide through.

    Click to expand…

    I think you are being a little paranoid about the pension. I think you are conflating the pension with what you view as the shortcomings of TPMG healthcare. The way I see it is a separate large chunk of money that is invested and has little or nothing to do with healthcare, I don’t think it has anything to do how well TPMG delivers health care. As someone said earlier I think there are many ways they could alter the pension if there was an issue like stopping new hires from being eligible. Also they are not promising to pay 40-50% of all retirees salaries. The pension is capped at a certain number after age 65, it’s 2% per year+1% per year only up to a max salary.

    #222692 Reply
    Avatar barelybarefoot 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 48
    Joined: 08/28/2017

    Anyone already met with these guys?

    Announcements
    Physician Financial Planning Services
    Beginning June 4th Physician Financial Planning Services will be available. TPMG Shareholders will receive access to the services of a dedicated Fidelity Executive Planning Consultant who will help them develop a financial plan that integrates their TPMG benefits with their overall financial goals on a complimentary basis. Physicians will also be supported by a team of Physician Financial Planning Services Associates, a specialized service group that provides priority attention and service. Fidelity/MD Benefits will reach out to Senior physicians via U.S. mail and e-mail starting June 3. Given the volume of TPMG Senior Physicians, the rollout will be staged from June 4 through September 30, 2019 starting with those closest to retirement age and then by age groupings until the newest Seniors are contacted.

    #225573 Reply
    Avatar jklin09 
    Participant
    Status: Resident
    Posts: 1
    Joined: 09/09/2018

    barelybarefoot

    I’m just starting at TPMG and would love to connect with you. Please feel free to direct message me as it seems we have similar interests.

    Thanks!

    #243991 Reply
    fatlittlepig fatlittlepig 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1193
    Joined: 01/26/2017

    Anyone already met with these guys?

    Announcements
    Physician Financial Planning Services
    Beginning June 4th Physician Financial Planning Services will be available. TPMG Shareholders will receive access to the services of a dedicated Fidelity Executive Planning Consultant who will help them develop a financial plan that integrates their TPMG benefits with their overall financial goals on a complimentary basis. Physicians will also be supported by a team of Physician Financial Planning Services Associates, a specialized service group that provides priority attention and service. Fidelity/MD Benefits will reach out to Senior physicians via U.S. mail and e-mail starting June 3. Given the volume of TPMG Senior Physicians, the rollout will be staged from June 4 through September 30, 2019 starting with those closest to retirement age and then by age groupings until the newest Seniors are contacted.

    Click to expand…

    Nope but I am interested in meeting with them.

     

    #243995 Reply

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