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Jury Duty

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  • Lordosis Lordosis 
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    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 02/11/2019
    Earnest refinancing bonus

    Ugh I just got summoned.  I should not complain since it has been 10 years since the last time.  I doubt I will be picked to sit anyways but this will play heck with my schedule.

     

    I get requests from patients all the time for excuses for jury duty.  Last week it was “I have to urinate so often it would disrupt the trial”  A few weeks ago “I do not like driving into the city” and once some one told me “I cannot hear well so I will not pay attention”   and all the time people with back pain and whatnot who cannot sit for that long.

     

    Do some of you other docs get requests for such nonsense?  Any good ways you have dealt with it?

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    #208845 Reply
    Avatar adventure 
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    Seems like a good thing to let the judge decide.

    #209075 Reply
    Lithium Lithium 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1159
    Joined: 02/15/2016

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    #209093 Reply
    Lordosis Lordosis 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1654
    Joined: 02/11/2019

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    I will try that.  Might be hard to keep a straight face.

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    #209102 Reply
    Liked by adventure, Craigy
    Avatar Xeno 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 128
    Joined: 01/24/2016

    For people who run their own businesses or otherwise have jobs where they can’t just take off and keep collecting a salary, there is often an “undue hardship” exemption. If you send them a letter explaining that you have patients scheduled weeks out and no opening for weeks and that there isn’t really anyone to cover for you, at least in my jurisdiction you will get a 12-month extension/exemption. They won’t give you indefinite excuse for that, but they will happily continue to postpone for a year at a time. Same goes for single parents of small children without good childcare options, caregivers of demented parents, etc. Essentially, they really don’t want you there if it’s a true hardship.

    #209105 Reply
    Liked by hatton1
    CordMcNally CordMcNally 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 01/03/2017

    I got summoned about a year ago. I was honest and told them I was an ED physician and me having to miss work at the last minute would cause undue hardship on the group and possibly leave an ED understaffed or even unstaffed depending on the facility I was working at. It finally worked but I didn’t get cut until towards the end. There were sooooo many more obviously false and ridiculous excuses that I was sure I would get cut in the first round. Nope, but the ridiculous excuse people got cut early. I say, the more ridiculous excuse, the better!

     

    I will say that there were quite a few “older” retired people that I could tell wanted to do it. My potential case was pretty boring, though, it was a son suing his father over something stupid. My wife got summoned several years ago and her case was about an injury in a car wreck. She’s a physical therapist and she got cut pretty much on the spot.

    “But investing isn’t about beating others at their game. It’s about controlling yourself at your own game.”
    ― Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

    #209110 Reply
    Liked by jz, MPMD
    The White Coat Investor The White Coat Investor 
    Keymaster
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 4473
    Joined: 05/13/2011

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Site/Forum Owner, Emergency Physician, Blogger, and author of The White Coat Investor: A Doctor's Guide to Personal Finance and Investing
    Helping Those Who Wear The White Coat Get A "Fair Shake" on Wall Street since 2011

    #209121 Reply
    Avatar Dilaudidopenia 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 202
    Joined: 05/22/2016

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Click to expand…

    Yeah that works until you get a complaint letter and admin throws you under the bus.

    Lordosis Lordosis 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1654
    Joined: 02/11/2019

    For people who run their own businesses or otherwise have jobs where they can’t just take off and keep collecting a salary, there is often an “undue hardship” exemption. If you send them a letter explaining that you have patients scheduled weeks out and no opening for weeks and that there isn’t really anyone to cover for you, at least in my jurisdiction you will get a 12-month extension/exemption. They won’t give you indefinite excuse for that, but they will happily continue to postpone for a year at a time. Same goes for single parents of small children without good childcare options, caregivers of demented parents, etc. Essentially, they really don’t want you there if it’s a true hardship.

    Click to expand…

    Yeah it is a pain but I am going to go.  Hopefully I call and do not need to show up based on my number.  Either I will inconvenience a bunch of my patients that need to reschedule or will have a slow day in the office because I did not need to go in for jury duty.  Either way I would not feel right calling it undue hardship.

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    #209127 Reply
    The White Coat Investor The White Coat Investor 
    Keymaster
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 4473
    Joined: 05/13/2011

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Click to expand…

    Yeah that works until you get a complaint letter and admin throws you under the bus.

    Click to expand…

    All the more reason to own your job and be in a strong financial position so you don’t have to care too much about nonsense complaints and admin that lacks the ability to recognize that. Do you really want a panel full of patients who would complain about you doing the right thing anyway?

    Site/Forum Owner, Emergency Physician, Blogger, and author of The White Coat Investor: A Doctor's Guide to Personal Finance and Investing
    Helping Those Who Wear The White Coat Get A "Fair Shake" on Wall Street since 2011

    #209138 Reply
    CordMcNally CordMcNally 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 2690
    Joined: 01/03/2017

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Click to expand…

    Yeah that works until you get a complaint letter and admin throws you under the bus.

    Click to expand…

    You need new admin and/or a different job. There’s a difference between a real complaint and a complaint like this. I’m glad because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a complaint like this get back to a doc where I work.

    “But investing isn’t about beating others at their game. It’s about controlling yourself at your own game.”
    ― Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

    #209140 Reply
    Lithium Lithium 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1159
    Joined: 02/15/2016

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Click to expand…

    If you have the energy and time to argue with patients who won’t take no for an answer, have at it.  I don’t blame anyone who takes the path of least resistance when they have 15 minutes with the patient and 6 pages of forms to chart.

    #209142 Reply
    The White Coat Investor The White Coat Investor 
    Keymaster
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 4473
    Joined: 05/13/2011
    medical school scholarship sponsor

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Click to expand…

    If you have the energy and time to argue with patients who won’t take no for an answer, have at it.  I don’t blame anyone who takes the path of least resistance when they have 15 minutes with the patient and 6 pages of forms to chart.

    Click to expand…

    I guess I view it as patient care (helping them understand what the best thing for their medical condition is) rather than arguing. If it’s clear they aren’t going to understand, I simply tell them I have other patients to see and won’t be prescribing them opiates or filling out whatever form or whatever and walk out.

    Site/Forum Owner, Emergency Physician, Blogger, and author of The White Coat Investor: A Doctor's Guide to Personal Finance and Investing
    Helping Those Who Wear The White Coat Get A "Fair Shake" on Wall Street since 2011

    #209146 Reply
    Dreamgiver Dreamgiver 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 837
    Joined: 03/09/2017

    I am an independent contractor and our medical staff office has a pre-written letter we use when docs get summoned for jury duty. Just mail it in (I think the last couple of years I did submit it electronically) and that’s it. Can’t stop care at a level 1 trauma center.

    #209152 Reply
    Lordosis Lordosis 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1654
    Joined: 02/11/2019

    A good way to answer questions on stuff like this from patients (ESA’s, fitness for duty) is to say the lawyer in your legal department told you not to do it.  “Sorry, policy.”  Patients may not like it but not much they can do to argue with it.

    Click to expand…

    This sounds like the same thing docs want when it comes to opiates. “Can we get a policy so we can blame that when patients ask me to do something I don’t want to do?”

    Get a spine. Tell patients “I’m not writing you that excuse because it’s the wrong thing to do” or “I’m not writing you for more percocet because my medical judgment is that it is a bad idea for you.”

    Click to expand…

    If you have the energy and time to argue with patients who won’t take no for an answer, have at it.  I don’t blame anyone who takes the path of least resistance when they have 15 minutes with the patient and 6 pages of forms to chart.

    Click to expand…

    I guess I view it as patient care (helping them understand what the best thing for their medical condition is) rather than arguing. If it’s clear they aren’t going to understand, I simply tell them I have other patients to see and won’t be prescribing them opiates or filling out whatever form or whatever and walk out.

    Click to expand…

    It is not just forms and opiates.  It is also non indicated test patients want.  Antibiotics.  Low T.  Diagnoses to support disability.

    Arguing with people about what is right is the correct thing to do but it takes time.  I m one that still has a lot of fight in me.  I am also willing to let people be mad at me and I can shrug off complaints and press ganey nonsense.  Not all docs can.  And some take the easier path of just giving in.  I do not agree with it but it happens.

    Sounds like you still have some fight in you too.  Keep up the good work.

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    #209155 Reply

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