Menu

graduate school debt nytimes article

Home General/Welcome graduate school debt nytimes article

  • Avatar hightower 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1421
    Joined: 12/07/2016

    Tim wrote:

    Click to expand…

    …I would advise any kid to just do a sales or trade job at a place known for good training or tuition assist, get skills, work their way up…

    Click to expand…

    Please provide a list of the companies.

    Click to expand…

    Basically any fortune 500 company would suffice, and usually those would be optimal since they’re most likely to offer tuition assist (they prefer future leaders to come from within vs outside). Any local hospital system, chain of local restaurants, auto shops, supermarkets, etc etc etc can usually do the same.

    All of those places have winning systems for a youngster to absorb and learn from… and good mentors to seek out, shadow, and discuss possible career paths with. I find the sales and customer service end of those places to be particularly useful since those skills will transfer to virtually any future job, but the systems are proven winners that have been duplicated again and again. They can usually find the right place for almost any motivated worker.

    A small business job is fine for “unskilled” workers, but those will be much more dependent on the entrepreneur leading it and the co-workers and managers they happen to be put with. That could provide much more variable quality of mentorship and training. The small biz also typically can’t offer the same education $ benefits or name recognition on the resume for future jobs that the big ones might. All are preferable to borrowing significant money to plod through college doing “generals” though.

    Click to expand…

    Yeah work in the gift shop or janitorial staff.  Do you really see people “rising to the top” very often from those sort of positions?  Come on man, don’t kid yourself.

    #219670 Reply
    Liked by Zaphod
    IntensiveCareBear IntensiveCareBear 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 160
    Joined: 12/22/2018

    I would advise any kid to just do a sales or trade job at a place known for good training or tuition assist, get skills, work their way up, get the employer to pay for school if they can, and save for their own business or college.

    Click to expand…

    …I mean, seriously, you think it’s a good idea to tell kids to just completely give up on the idea of college?  You’re a physician!  Are you going to tell your kids to just go get a job after high school?  I highly doubt it.  If so, I hope they don’t listen to you, lol.

    I mean sure, non-college paths can work out well for some and likewise, college may not work out for all, but the truth is that college educated people still have more opportunities and higher earnings throughout their lives on average.

    Telling people to give up on college is crazy.  I think a more reasonable approach is to change our system so that college isn’t so stupidly expensive and advise people to be careful about their choices

    Click to expand…

    We are in agreement. I love education. However, every financial product has a price where it is good value and where it’s bad.

    You took my words out of context, but I’d said in that same post that there is no longer value in most university education. Med school and other I listed still have value, but most are not worth it anymore. Insurances, partnership for docs, annuity, stocks, bonds, CDs, etc all have prices where they are a steal and prices where people would be insane to buy them. Same goes for college… especially when books, internet, etc info is at an all time high for availability and low priced (or free at the library).

    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

    I’m simply being reasonable, and you’re being unreasonable and progressive. Either can work.

    I would tell kids to get a job during high school, not just after. They can experience the work force and will probably want to make more money. We can do the math, and they can read RDPD. They will probably realize making more means starting their own biz, acquiring income producing assets, and/or getting promotion/skill to make them more valuable. They need to add more value to their own biz or someone else’s. If they have a good career plan that needs college to get a skill that requires license or cert or something, cool. If they have worked their way up at a high school job(s) and want to continue their trajectory, cool. If they have a business plan of their own or want to join the military, cool. If they just want to go to college since they feel they should or because their friends are going… hmmm. It’s their life, not mine.

     

    Tim wrote:

    Click to expand…

    …I would advise any kid to just do a sales or trade job at a place known for good training or tuition assist, get skills, work their way up…

    Click to expand…

    Please provide a list of the companies.

    Click to expand…

    Basically any fortune 500 company would suffice, and usually those would be optimal since they’re most likely to offer tuition assist (they prefer future leaders to come from within vs outside). Any local hospital system, chain of local restaurants, auto shops, supermarkets, etc etc etc can usually do the same.

    All of those places have winning systems for a youngster to absorb and learn from… and good mentors to seek out, shadow, and discuss possible career paths with. I find the sales and customer service end of those places to be particularly useful since those skills will transfer to virtually any future job, but the systems are proven winners that have been duplicated again and again. They can usually find the right place for almost any motivated worker.

    A small business job is fine for “unskilled” workers, but those will be much more dependent on the entrepreneur leading it and the co-workers and managers they happen to be put with. That could provide much more variable quality of mentorship and training. The small biz also typically can’t offer the same education $ benefits or name recognition on the resume for future jobs that the big ones might. All are preferable to borrowing significant money to plod through college doing “generals” though.

    Click to expand…

    Yeah work in the gift shop or janitorial staff.  Do you really see people “rising to the top” very often from those sort of positions?  Come on man, don’t kid yourself.

    Click to expand…

    Actually, it’s not as uncommon as you think. I have a few friends who do HR for fortune 100 and others who are high level sales trainers or execs. Many big companies hire a lot of folks with less degree training than you’d think (esp foreigners) as long as they have good grades and/or proven talent. They might hire the grads from big name universities also, but it isn’t as clear-cut as one would think. Home Depot or GM aren’t run by all guys who went to Harvard before joining the company, the engineers aren’t hired exclusively from MIT, and all their accountants didn’t go to Dartmouth before starting there. As long as the hires have the aptitude, they are happy to plug them in and get them in school (which usually has a payback clause if they don’t stay with the corp for at least a few years). You’d be surprised.

    There are also numerous examples that started busboy/cashier > shift manager > general > territory > ???. Any company will always find a place for talented and hardworking people. Are these exceptional people if they make it to the upper level ranks? Yep. But would someone with an ivy league MBA be hired or promoted over them? Only if they were as competent and productive. You are only as good as the value you add. For docs, that would be pts/day or $/day… or ideas and plans to make $/day. For a realtor, that’s sales. For a software guy, it’s the value of products/patents. For a landscaper, it’s projects done and $ collected. I didn’t see anything in there about what school and what grades.

    "Hmm, that sounds risky." - motto of the middle class

    #219688 Reply
    Zaphod Zaphod 
    Participant
    Status: Physician, Small Business Owner
    Posts: 5751
    Joined: 01/12/2016

    Agree with hightower, its a bit nuts in reality.

    I know, college costs are insane and all that, but when you look at it in a “worth it, or value” type proposition…well, I have a hard time seeing that it isnt still worth it, and even so if it is more expensive than today. Most of peoples including my own issues are trying to live too much too fast. Yes there are majors that dont pay well, etc…and if not already well off it doesnt make sense to get certain degrees at the most expensive school, but for the most part people arent.

    Similar to those “harvard, or private” stuff equivalent degree debates, its farcical. Its networking and powerful people tend to come from a certain place, yes, its worth it.

    Could easily make an argument medical school has been vastly under priced in the past. People on this forum have had incredibly crushing debt, yet been able to turn that into extremely positive net worth to where they can retire in their mid 40s comfortably. You’ll have to work pretty hard to convince me the cost of college is the bad guy, and not really ourselves.

    I came out with something like 600k overall. Worth it. Do I wish I was paying attention, didnt grow up a financial idiot, and make a ton of giant mistakes? You bet. Do I wish I still worked at the grocery store or apartment complex and never incurred my debt? Hell no. I do it again over and over and over.

    #219689 Reply
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 2301
    Joined: 09/18/2018
    Splash Refinancing Bonus

    @intensivecarebear,
    I really want to compliment you. The type of critical thinking and suggestions of alternatives would be invaluable. The message is clear, get experience acquire knowledge, work smart, and work hard. No one is going to do it for you. By no means have you “directed” the path, simply “come back when you have something to discuss “. I would venture that 90% of students never have someone give them direction without directing them.
    Mentors, teachers, coaches, parents are all busy. Not everyone is a self starter or learns in the same way. My guess if you didn’t see progress, you would try a different technique. Once you FIRE, consider a side gig counseling. You’re a natural.

    #219690 Reply
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 2301
    Joined: 09/18/2018

    @intensivecarebear,
    “You’d be surprised.”
    No I wouldn’t. Been there done that. The “pedigree” gets you get a read. Big state U gets a read. Small college, depends on the name and the discipline. Carnegie Mellon is great for electrical engineering. HR is a staff position. How much value I’d SHRM certificates?
    There is a job to be done. How many open reqs do we have? They don’t determine headcount, they keep us in line. Things like hiring a contact from a competitor has all types of pitfalls.
    Being at the right place at the right time helps. What does that have to do with a landscape business?
    Geez. Yes, ownership and small business can make money. Healthcare I am ignorant, building and running international business, I know to hire specific needs, education and experience for a job responsibilities.

    #219716 Reply
    portlandia portlandia 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 381
    Joined: 07/07/2017

    college educated people still have more opportunities and higher earnings throughout their lives on average.

    Click to expand…

    Ah, but did the college degree create these opportunities and higher earnings? Or is it that, historically speaking a higher percentage of smart, hard-working people have attended college and these folks earn more, with or without college, than their peers? The widely quoted study showing college graduates earning more over their lifetime is comparing 2 different groups that differ in these economically important ways and is therefore meaningless as a general predictor of the value of college.

    https://mises.org/library/college-degree-does-not-make-you-million-dollars

    And, if colleges and universities have historically added economic value, is this equally true today in light of decreasing academic rigor and lax admission standards? Furthermore, does every major add the same amount of economic value?

    Telling people to give up on college is crazy.

    Click to expand…

    False. Telling some people to give up on college might be the most sane and compassionate thing you could do- think the potential sociology major who will graduate with >$100K debt and no job. Is it crazy to tell that person to abandon their plan?

    I am not against college per se, but as @intensivecarebear details, at the cost of some of these degrees the ROI doesn’t compute. If my kid wants to be an engineer, doctor or physicist, great. Go to college. If, OTOH he wants to study medieval art history to the tune of $50K/year, I will tell him to get a job, and study his passion on the side, which he can do for free on the interwebs.

     

    #219717 Reply
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 2301
    Joined: 09/18/2018
    I will tell him to get a job, and study his passion on the side

    Click to expand…

    Back to the job education discussion, what path do you guide him to?

    #219727 Reply
    Avatar Kuratz 
    Participant
    Status: Resident
    Posts: 13
    Joined: 11/29/2017

    Surprised the article didn’t mention law school. Arguably just as egregious

    #219738 Reply
    Liked by Hank
    portlandia portlandia 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 381
    Joined: 07/07/2017
    I will tell him to get a job, and study his passion on the side 

    Click to expand…

    Back to the job education discussion, what path do you guide him to?

    Click to expand…

    I’m not sure I understand the question. Whatever path he chooses, whether college, vocational school or entrepreneurship, I will sit down with him and calculate the ROI of his potential choices, understanding that finances are only part of the decision about what career to pursue.

    This kind of planning is just not happening very frequently today. If it were, there wouldn’t be millions of un/underemployed humanities grads with tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Did those students, before selecting their major, research the availability of jobs, pay and the opportunity cost of getting said degree? Dollars to donuts, they didn’t. And you can bet the schools didn’t perform “informed consent” about their major choice.

    Economics professor Laurence Koitlikoff did an ROI calculation in a hypothetical scenario comparing 4 people’s average take home earnings over their adult life. He compares 2 teachers, one with a bachelor’s and another with a masters, a plumber and a family practice physician. The results will be surprising to many.

    https://www.investmentnews.com/article/20110309/FREE/110309903/harvard-vs-plumbing-school-youd-be-surprised

     

    #219742 Reply
    Liked by Hank
    Avatar Panscan 
    Participant
    Status: Resident
    Posts: 785
    Joined: 03/18/2017
    Earnest refinancing bonus

    You tell your kid to examine the costs and potential pay of any job. Going to school for 4 years doesn’t have to cost 100k. Go to your in state, state university, get a job during school and you can go for 10k/ yr probably. So if you’re 40k in debt for a 40k/yr starting job, not so bad.

    Are you going to go to random fancy liberal arts college for 200k to make 40k? No but IMO these are crappy schools anyway and I still have no idea why anyone goes to them. Microscopic expensive private colleges seem almost inherently pointless to me. Bad academics, decreased opportunities, I really don’t see any positives.

    And no I don’t think it takes a bright brilliant person to teach kids out of a book. I also don’t think it takes a bright brilliant person to be a doctor.

    Click to expand…

    You have a very negative view of liberal arts schools.  Not sure what that’s all about, but that’s fine, you are entitled to your opinions, but realize that they are just that.  I went to a “fancy liberal arts” college and felt it changed my life in so many positive ways.  It was an excellent school and I had professors that were absolutely amazing people and very inspirational to me still to this day.  It’s definitely not fair to say that all private liberal arts schools are “inherently pointless” with “bad academics, decreased opportunities”  Not sure why these schools upset you so much, but I think you’re generalizing too much probably based on limited information.

    Also, I think it’s sad that you think that teachers do nothing more than “teach kids out of a book.”  I agree with you that you don’t have to be brilliant to be a doctor though, but the brilliant ones I’ve met are certainly better doctors.

    Click to expand…

    I also have a very negative view of jumping off of buldings, which is what I’d compare getting 200k in debt for a future 40k income. I just don’t see what benefits someone gets from a liberal arts education that they couldn’t just get on their own. an engineering degree from caltech gets you in the door at a ton of places. a BA from williams college? not sure what that gets you. more debt I guess.

    depends what level we’re talking about teaching. grade school? I really don’t think the actual teaching is much more than following a book. the interpersonal dynamics? probably a but more complex.

    It seems hard to debate that teaching is little more than reading out of a book when modern medical students literally teach themselves everything or read it out of books. I don’t know how we can argue teaching a 6th grader is super tough but your doctor doesn’t feel that going to class and listening to someone lecture is beneficial.

    #219754 Reply
    Liked by Hank
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 2301
    Joined: 09/18/2018
    I will tell him to get a job

    Click to expand…

    What job? You told him to get a job. Done with hs, using free on the internet. Path to success. Don’t see career path.

    #219757 Reply
    Avatar Panscan 
    Participant
    Status: Resident
    Posts: 785
    Joined: 03/18/2017

    Agree with hightower, its a bit nuts in reality.

    I know, college costs are insane and all that, but when you look at it in a “worth it, or value” type proposition…well, I have a hard time seeing that it isnt still worth it, and even so if it is more expensive than today. Most of peoples including my own issues are trying to live too much too fast. Yes there are majors that dont pay well, etc…and if not already well off it doesnt make sense to get certain degrees at the most expensive school, but for the most part people arent.

    Similar to those “harvard, or private” stuff equivalent degree debates, its farcical. Its networking and powerful people tend to come from a certain place, yes, its worth it.

    Could easily make an argument medical school has been vastly under priced in the past. People on this forum have had incredibly crushing debt, yet been able to turn that into extremely positive net worth to where they can retire in their mid 40s comfortably. You’ll have to work pretty hard to convince me the cost of college is the bad guy, and not really ourselves.

    I came out with something like 600k overall. Worth it. Do I wish I was paying attention, didnt grow up a financial idiot, and make a ton of giant mistakes? You bet. Do I wish I still worked at the grocery store or apartment complex and never incurred my debt? Hell no. I do it again over and over and over.

    Click to expand…

    not sure the bold speaks to medicine’s cost, more so just that people who save a lot and invest reasonably well end up with a lot of money

     

    I agree that medicine was probably under-priced before. however I’m not sure the cost of obtaining a degree should be correlated with it’s future income potential.

    #219758 Reply
    Avatar Tim 
    Participant
    Status: Accountant
    Posts: 2301
    Joined: 09/18/2018

    Did you vote for him? Cherry picked. Not economic research. Many people make money jumping off of buildings, base jumping.

    So you don’t like Williams.

    “Williams is 1 of about four-dozen colleges (out of 2,500) in the U.S. that practice need-blind admission for domestic applicants (including undocumented students and those with DACA status) and meet 100 percent of the demonstrated need of every admitted student, every year. Actually, we go beyond that—we seek out exceptional students from low-income backgrounds. We view financial aid as money well spent—an investment in our community.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Williams_College_people

    95% grad rate

    #219762 Reply
    Zaphod Zaphod 
    Participant
    Status: Physician, Small Business Owner
    Posts: 5751
    Joined: 01/12/2016

    Agree with hightower, its a bit nuts in reality.

    I know, college costs are insane and all that, but when you look at it in a “worth it, or value” type proposition…well, I have a hard time seeing that it isnt still worth it, and even so if it is more expensive than today. Most of peoples including my own issues are trying to live too much too fast. Yes there are majors that dont pay well, etc…and if not already well off it doesnt make sense to get certain degrees at the most expensive school, but for the most part people arent.

    Similar to those “harvard, or private” stuff equivalent degree debates, its farcical. Its networking and powerful people tend to come from a certain place, yes, its worth it.

    Could easily make an argument medical school has been vastly under priced in the past. People on this forum have had incredibly crushing debt, yet been able to turn that into extremely positive net worth to where they can retire in their mid 40s comfortably. You’ll have to work pretty hard to convince me the cost of college is the bad guy, and not really ourselves.

    I came out with something like 600k overall. Worth it. Do I wish I was paying attention, didnt grow up a financial idiot, and make a ton of giant mistakes? You bet. Do I wish I still worked at the grocery store or apartment complex and never incurred my debt? Hell no. I do it again over and over and over.

    Click to expand…

    not sure the bold speaks to medicine’s cost, more so just that people who save a lot and invest reasonably well end up with a lot of money

     

    I agree that medicine was probably under-priced before. however I’m not sure the cost of obtaining a degree should be correlated with it’s future income potential.

    Click to expand…

    No but that does make it valuable.

    #219764 Reply
    Avatar StateOfMyHead 
    Participant
    Status: Advanced Practice Provider
    Posts: 81
    Joined: 01/01/2019

    You tell your kid to examine the costs and potential pay of any job. Going to school for 4 years doesn’t have to cost 100k. Go to your in state, state university, get a job during school and you can go for 10k/ yr probably. So if you’re 40k in debt for a 40k/yr starting job, not so bad.

    Are you going to go to random fancy liberal arts college for 200k to make 40k? No but IMO these are crappy schools anyway and I still have no idea why anyone goes to them. Microscopic expensive private colleges seem almost inherently pointless to me. Bad academics, decreased opportunities, I really don’t see any positives.

    And no I don’t think it takes a bright brilliant person to teach kids out of a book. I also don’t think it takes a bright brilliant person to be a doctor.

    Click to expand…

    Oh my, are you actually suggesting today’s little darlings work? Or go to a community college and save thousands of dollars on their first two years? 😉

    For those with the good fortune to come from an affluent family sure do whatever however many, myself included, don’t have that luxury and need to work and make sensible financial choices. The number of 20-somethings today who have never worked appals me.

    #219804 Reply

Reply To: graduate school debt nytimes article

In case of a glitch or error, please save your text elsewhere, clear browser cache, close browser, open browser and refresh the page.

Notifications Mark all as read  |  Clear