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Fatlittlepig\'s Question for POF (Physician on Fire)

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  • CM CM 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1087
    Joined: 01/14/2017
    Do you have any idea how much successful blogs make?  I think you’re severely underestimating here.

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    Some do fairly well. Huffington Post sold for $315M.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-money-arianna-made-from-the-sale-of-huffington-post-2013-10

     

     

    Erstwhile Dance Theatre of Dayton performer cum bellhop. Carried bags for Cyd Charisse (gracious). Hosted epic company parties after Friday night rehearsals.

    #205929 Reply
    Vagabond MD Vagabond MD 
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    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 01/21/2016

    I absolutely see the benefits from the PoF approach. I know the lifestyle he is pursuing with his FIRE status wouldn’t be a good fit for me and my family, but the freedom to CHOOSE that lifestyle is the real takeaway.

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    I could not have said it better myself. And I tried.

    I am not sure why @flp insists on imposing his value system on others. It works for him, and that’s fine, but as someone said earlier, there is not one true path to success, fulfillment, and financial security.

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    Incorrect, not imposing anything on anyone. This is a financial forum, physician on fire’s strategy is a valid topic to discuss. I find it odd to completely pull the ripcord and quit (I believe the white coat investor himself still works part time), with a few shifts a month the level of financial safety for him and his family drastically improves. He doesn’t seem like he’s completely burnt out or anything which is why I think it’s a odd decision. I still think he has a good website, I hope it continues to grow etc.

    ill post my thoughts on the fire movement in general at a later time

    FLP

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    Imposing might not be the perfect word choice, but certainly reframing PoF’s life choices in the context of flp’s worldview.

    I will ask you then, @flp, when is it okay to punch out? What conditions need to be met?

    "Wealth is the slave of the wise man and the master of the fool.” -Seneca the Younger

    #205930 Reply
    Avatar FIREshrink 
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    Status: Physician
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    but not having a job at this age, would be extremely boring, i think it is likely physician on fire will return to the workforce due to this reason.

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    He has a job. He’s a successful entrepreneur with a growing business.

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    You’re comparing the income of being an anesthesiologist to running a blog? I would treat the blog income as something that could evaporate at any time. It’s great but let’s not fool ourselves and compare it the stability of a physician income.

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    i think fatlittlepig lacks flexibility, creativity, and a growth mindset, which makes it hard for him to see how others can live their lives happily and profitably, yet differently than him.

    #205940 Reply
    Lithium Lithium 
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    Status: Physician
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    I am on a trip to Europe right now and rushing through one city every day, wishing I could spend 2 months here rather than 2 weeks. POF’s decision makes total sense to me and I hope I can do something like it before too long, though it will be hard not to keep a toe in the water. Kudos to him for having the courage to walk away.

    FLP, you have posted your net worth here before. If you lost your medical license, you could spend six figures a year easily for the rest of your life. Have you never thought of even cutting back to part time?

    #205943 Reply
    ENT Doc ENT Doc 
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    I see where FLP is coming from in terms of protection – doing part time work and having that attachment to a stable income stream is sort of akin to a pension, but isn’t the concern a bit misplaced? Pretend the blog vanishes tomorrow. Hasn’t PoF demonstrated that he has enough saved to maintain his family on a conservative SWR given their spending? This gets to Vagabond’s point – what specific criteria must be met for retirement at any given point?

    #205945 Reply
    Avatar AR 
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    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 03/10/2016
    MMM makes compromises most of us are unwilling to do.  I do not mind working a few more years if it means not having to wash out my Ziploc bags, extreme coupon, or hope for financial aid to educate my kids.  I find this crowd has a standard of living closer to my own.  Except those crazies who keep their house at 52 degrees

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    Oh I wasn’t making any comment on the quality or appropriateness of MMM’s advice.  I just think that he will naturally have a larger target audience than POF.  So it would make it very hard for POF’s blog to be as financially successful as MMM’s can be.

    #205946 Reply
    Avatar Tim 
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    “This gets to Vagabond’s point – what specific criteria must be met for retirement at any given point?”

    Not working for a living.

    The same activity can be viewed as an activity or work.
    School bus driver or writing a blog. Retirement doesn’t preclude being active nor accepting payments nor being productive.

    Specificities are fluid, situational and individual.
    Some personalities don’t thrive with retirement.
    FLP simply says, “no way, not satisfying or productive “
    POF simply says, “ I want to try this”

    Both will cease working for a living some day.
    Rest In Peace. Enjoy your journey.

    #205949 Reply
    Avatar adventure 
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    Rest In Peace. Enjoy your journey.

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    I’ll try and enjoy the journey before I rest though!!

    #205953 Reply
    Liked by Lordosis
    Avatar saildawg 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 01/24/2016
    I actually don’t think medicine is that unique in this regard.  I think doctors like to tell ourselves that we’re special, but I think we overstate it.  It’s probably true of any high income professional.  Jobs that make 200k+ are competitive.  You have to work hard to get them, and with few exceptions you can’t drop out of the competition for 3-4 years and expect to come back making the same amount.  Industries change, and if you’re not there keeping up with the changes you are not going to be competitive to land another high paying job after a multi year hiatus.   Sure, you can get back in the workforce doing/making something, but so could almost any doctor.   And as at least one doc on this board has demonstrated (CM), return to the physician workforce is possible after an extended absence.

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    I do not disagree that other professions with competitive incomes would be on par as far as difficulty obtaining previous income and finding a position.  I think medicine has more regulatory hoops to jump through (re-licensing, CME, board certification) and if you are in a procedural based specialty you may even need to repeat training.  None of this is impossible to overcome, but there is so much involved it sure as hell would give me pause before deciding to leave my career early.

    I agree CM has a very interesting story, I am not sure what CM had to do to get back into medicine but would love to hear what was involved

    #205959 Reply
    Liked by SLC OB
    Avatar saildawg 
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    medical school scholarship sponsor

    this will probably not be a popular post but my role as fatlittlepig is not to be popular but to offer my perspective and opinion.

    if i were POF’s financial advisor, i would recommend to keep working, even just a few shifts a month would virtually guarantee financial security.

    for me to jump ship at that point in the game, things would have to be intolerably bad, like physically getting ill thinking about going to work. (not just i would rather be in ecuador this week.)

    also (this may just apply to me) but not having a job at this age, would be extremely boring, i think it is likely physician on fire will return to the workforce due to this reason.

    FLP

     

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    FLP

    I too like the idea of guaranteed financial security, and it seems like anesthesia is a great fit for part time work.

    However, I think POF has it already.  I would encourage you to listen to Kitces on the MadFientist podcast.  They discuss in detail the SWR, and particularly how it applies to early retirees.  Kitces is all numbers and data driven and he has done the research.  What is most interesting is when they discuss just what a big difference a extremely small amount of income does to your portfolio.  Here is an exerpt

    “And I find for a lot of prospective retirees or early financial independence folks, they actually grossly underestimate the sheer impact of just doing a little part-time work for like $10,000 a year. Bear in mind, if you were assuming that this 3.5% withdrawal rate was your number, an extra $10,000 a year of side gig income in retirement is like having another $300,000 in your portfolio.”

    So if POF is making more the median family household income in “retirement” he is going to grow even wealthier.  Even if the blog goes belly up, he can still convert his human capital into some small income (Dog sitting apparently) and look at the effect that will have on his portfolio.

     

    So if Kitces (MSFS, MTAX, CFP, CLU, ChFC, RHU, REBC, CASL) was POF’s advisor and not FLP (self appointed forum guru 🙂 ) he would probably say, good job you are secure go out and live your best life.

    #205962 Reply
    fatlittlepig fatlittlepig 
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    Status: Physician
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    Kind of expected this response, but somewhat disappointed in the negativity. my comments were not meant to be critical of this individual, but isn’t one of the points of this forum to examine, test and scrutinize a retirement plan. I do stand by my comments that if I were indeed his financial advisor, given his level of assets with a non-working spouse and two kids, i would recommend working a few shifts a month. I’m not saying he can’t do extended trips, work on the website etc, but completely quitting I think would be a mistake. The thing with being a physician is our incomes are so high that you just need a few shifts a month to make a large material benefit to your expenses, those few shifts will take away any feelings of financial insecurity, need for part time side gigs etc.  in my opinion if you are considering relying on alternative health insurance like a health sharing ministry, working the odd side gig, or relying on blog income, you do not have the assets yet to fully cut the cord. Of course my thoughts on this matter are colored by my own experiences, I enjoy working, it is a social and intellectual outlet, i like being productive.

    Avatar saildawg 
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    Status: Physician
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    Kind of expected this response, but somewhat disappointed in the negativity. my comments were not meant to be critical just wanted to spend some time testing and scrutinizing a retirement plan (after all isn’t that the point of the forum). I do stand by my comments that if I were indeed his financial advisor, given his level of assets with a non-working spouse and two kids, i would recommend working a few shifts a month. I’m not saying he can’t do extended trips, work on the website etc, but completely quitting I think would be a mistake. The thing with being a physician is our incomes are so high that you just need a few shifts a month to make a large material benefit to your expenses, those few shifts will take away any feelings of financial insecurity, need for part time side gigs etc.  in my opinion if you are considering relying on alternative health insurance like a health sharing ministry, working the odd side gig, or relying on blog income, you do not have the assets yet to fully cut the cord. Of course my thoughts on this matter are colored by my own experiences, I enjoy working, it is a social and intellectual outlet, i like being productive.

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    No negativity intended and I enjoy this discussion as it has been weighing on me for a few years.  I think if you step into the adviser role you have to look at the numbers, not the context of the job he is doing and giving up etc.  The numbers say he will be fine (even without blog income), and the fact that he is able to generate income (a good income) speaks even more to that.  He is currently already budgeting for healthcare  

    and while health sharing ministries are an unknown, he could just have to take it on the chin and pay for unsubsidized traditional health insurance and budget for that.

    Nothing in life is guaranteed including our jobs as physicians, but it seems like you are focusing on the social context of early retirement and separating it from the math.

     

    #205981 Reply
    Vagabond MD Vagabond MD 
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    Status: Physician
    Posts: 3338
    Joined: 01/21/2016

    Kind of expected this response, but somewhat disappointed in the negativity. my comments were not meant to be critical of this individual, but isn’t one of the points of this forum to examine, test and scrutinize a retirement plan. I do stand by my comments that if I were indeed his financial advisor, given his level of assets with a non-working spouse and two kids, i would recommend working a few shifts a month. I’m not saying he can’t do extended trips, work on the website etc, but completely quitting I think would be a mistake. The thing with being a physician is our incomes are so high that you just need a few shifts a month to make a large material benefit to your expenses, those few shifts will take away any feelings of financial insecurity, need for part time side gigs etc.  in my opinion if you are considering relying on alternative health insurance like a health sharing ministry, working the odd side gig, or relying on blog income, you do not have the assets yet to fully cut the cord. Of course my thoughts on this matter are colored by my own experiences, I enjoy working, it is a social and intellectual outlet, i like being productive.

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    Actually, I am not seeing negativity, just a lot of folks who do not side with you on this discussion (most notably, the subject of the discussion).

    Many of us continue to work because of the reasons that you suggest – health insurance, social/intellectual outlet, being productive – and add identity and purpose, too. If I could find something better to fill my time, be it a blog, opening a shop, dog walking and sitting (which is a huge, underrated opportunity, if you are a dog lover), starting some other service business, etc., I would strongly consider it. I am tired of making life and death decisions all day. It wears me down. So far, I have not come up with an alternative plan, so I continue to work, on my own terms as much as possible.

    "Wealth is the slave of the wise man and the master of the fool.” -Seneca the Younger

    #205982 Reply
    Lordosis Lordosis 
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    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1209
    Joined: 02/11/2019
    MMM makes compromises most of us are unwilling to do.  I do not mind working a few more years if it means not having to wash out my Ziploc bags, extreme coupon, or hope for financial aid to educate my kids.  I find this crowd has a standard of living closer to my own.  Except those crazies who keep their house at 52 degrees 

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    Oh I wasn’t making any comment on the quality or appropriateness of MMM’s advice.  I just think that he will naturally have a larger target audience than POF.  So it would make it very hard for POF’s blog to be as financially successful as MMM’s can be.

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    Neither am I.  I think we agree with each other.   You are right MMM’s ideas apply to a larger crowd I was just saying I was not part of that crowd.  If MMM worked another decade and retired early on a budget more similar to my own it would likely interest me more.  But I have no need or desire to learn how to like on less then 25K a year.

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    #205984 Reply
    Liked by q-school
    q-school q-school 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 05/07/2017

    Kind of expected this response, but somewhat disappointed in the negativity. my comments were not meant to be critical of this individual, but isn’t one of the points of this forum to examine, test and scrutinize a retirement plan. I do stand by my comments that if I were indeed his financial advisor, given his level of assets with a non-working spouse and two kids, i would recommend working a few shifts a month. I’m not saying he can’t do extended trips, work on the website etc, but completely quitting I think would be a mistake. The thing with being a physician is our incomes are so high that you just need a few shifts a month to make a large material benefit to your expenses, those few shifts will take away any feelings of financial insecurity, need for part time side gigs etc.  in my opinion if you are considering relying on alternative health insurance like a health sharing ministry, working the odd side gig, or relying on blog income, you do not have the assets yet to fully cut the cord. Of course my thoughts on this matter are colored by my own experiences, I enjoy working, it is a social and intellectual outlet, i like being productive.

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    i think you are still missing the point many of us are trying to make.

    POF doesn’t need to do the odd side gig, or rely on health ministry for financial future.

    he has spreadsheet analyzed his wealth and income stream, excluding the blog, and concluded he has reached FI.  now he is choosing to retire early, which is the whole point (for him).

    the rest of us are celebrating his courage in making the decisive step and giving up the keys to the medical kingdom.    as best as i can tell, where we differ, you either don’t believe he has the money, or still think he should keep the option open (for unclear reasons that may not apply to him-but that you value).  we are eager to see what the next few years bring for him.

    mathematically there are a ton of people here who can afford to do the same, but they just have not for various reasons.  there are some here, whose only reason really is that they don’t trust the spreadsheet or are less certain about the future and want  so called one more year every year for health insurance or whatever.   i would ask if you were his financial advisor and you agreed with the spreadsheet but still advised him to work more, is that because you don’t trust the calculations, don’t trust the future, or can’t absorb what his desires are?  and if you don’t trust the future and the spreadsheet, how much is enough?  60x?  80x?

    i’ve asked you many times the same question for yourself–now, what?  you like work and that’s fine, but what’s stopping you from either spending the money or donating it or whatever?  are you running up the score?  (nothing wrong with that but if one doesn’t value having paper high net worth, then the question is whether you have optimized your happiness?)

    it’s interesting because my lawyer neighbor handed in her papers a few months ago.  but it’s not like medicine.  they don’t have noncompetes.  it’s not necessarily a final decision-she might just go work somewhere else.  she might do something else, her career doesn’t appear to define her the way medicine tends to.  it was just a resignation, not a statement about retirement.  i think POF is very aware that he might need flexibility-he’s not afraid (i think) to make 30k or 50k doing something else or adjusting retirement spending if necessary.  so similarly, i think it’s not an “all-in” decision for him, just a this is the right path for me right here right now decision.

    apologies to flp if i’m mis-stating your position again.

    i certainly think the discussion is healthy and ask everyone to refrain from ad hominem comments.

     

     

    #205985 Reply

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