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Marriage: Still Your Highest Risk Venture

Home Asset Protection Marriage: Still Your Highest Risk Venture

  • Zaphod Zaphod 
    Participant
    Status: Physician, Small Business Owner
    Posts: 5415
    Joined: 01/12/2016

    I just got a call from a med school classmate last weekend who is starting the divorce process and wanted advice. The only advice is basically, “sorry to hear that. Your next year or two is going to be very tough, but you will learn a lot.” I was going to tell him how to find a good divorce lawyer, but nearly every attorney does divorce… since it is so damn common. It’s sad though. He will be lucky to “just” lose all of his retirement and need to take out loans just to keep his private practice intact when all is said and done, and his kids will soon be 3 or 4 hours away… but I’ll let his attorney be the good news bearer on all that. I just suggested he go very slow with future women and realize that while women and happiness are easy to find anywhere, money is not.

    Marriage and divorce are just industries. It is an industry of trading money (property) for sex… or at least the general idea of that. Always has been, always will be. Look at dowry and arranged marriage traditions. Marriage caters to beta males who have the scarcity mentality with regard to mating (and it also caters to female hypergamy: women who themselves, or through family pressure, function as gold diggers). It keeps those guys happy and content (and non-violent); it was designed that way and still largely serves the same purpose. The problem is that marriage is now a totally unnecessary risk. It is too bad many people don’t learn that early in life, as opposed to during their first divorce (if they even learn it then?)…

    Marriage served a more logical purpose back 100+ years ago when 99% of women were stay-at-home moms or cook/cleaners and women couldn’t own land… or vote, hold office,  etc etc. Back then, marriage also meant wives couldn’t press rape charges against their husbands, and wives would get a portion of his land value if they divorced (back when divorce was rare and only considered due to bona fide infidelity, documented abuse, mental illness, etc). It effectively made the women the sexual property of husbands in exchange for some financial security. Not ideal, but again, it was somewhat necessary back in the day to avoid male violence and single mothers dying in the streets… and besides, those were also times when people were less educated and religion was much more powerfully ingrained into politics and social customs.

    In this day in age, legal marriage affords no advantage to the higher income partner. It might save them a small percentage on taxes or the lower income partner can be on health insurance with the higher income one (basically why gays want marriage), but those benefits are all dwarfed by the downsides that come with divorce. Nowadays, women can do essentially anything men can do in regards to finance, career, and investing or ownership.

    There is nothing wrong with having a wedding party or wearing rings or etc, but the actual legal marriage is a fool’s undertaking these days. Even if you are in the minority of couples who “make it” to a life-long marriage, you are likely to be one of the many “roommate” marriages that are just staying together for the kids or financial reasoning or fear of starting over. That is sad, yet those marriages are counted in the “success” percentage. Formal legal marriage just makes something that’s already traumatic and stressful (breaking up) and makes it much harder, longer, more expensive, and more hate-filled for both parties by doing formal divorce proceedings.

    If legal marriage and divorce were so “natural” and “necessary,” there wouldn’t be heavy religious and cultural pressures to do them. Little girls wouldn’t be indoctrinated about how marriage is essential for having kids (huge myth). You wouldn’t hear divorce attorney radio commercials and see ‘bridal expo’ billboards on every drive to work.

    I am in no way against long term relationships or monogamous relatoinships, and I think nearly everyone prefers them, but from both a financial and emotional health standpoint, legal marriage is the largest life risk you could ever take. You don’t need marriage to have a partner, to live together, to have kids, to take vacations together, or anything else. Marriage is a human myth and a boon a attorneys and legal systems. If you took all the marriages and divorces and child support and minor traffic stuff out of courts, that would kill well over half the caseloads, lol. GL to Bezos, my buddy, and many others who will learn the hard way. I hope they’ll never make the same mistake again.

    Related (and correct) info on what marriage was… versus what marriage now is:

    7 Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Get Married

    Click to expand…

    That’s a fairly jaded view point. Marriage is like a lot of other decisions that people make in regards to the fact that a lot of people make the wrong decision. People buy too much house, they buy too expensive of a car, they make poor financial decisions, and they marry people they shouldn’t marry.

    Click to expand…

    Do you think its really just the wrong people? It sucks that its so destructive, but after 25 years like the Bezos, it doesnt have to be wrong…people change and are different after that amount of time. Hopefully they were truly happy for 10-20 years and had a good relationship. Sometimes you end up different people.

    You should really seek to avoid things that dramatically increase chances of divorce (very young), or not marry if you’re not that kind of person (faithful,etc…). Marriage is work, hopefully at some age you realize its all basically the same and you’re trading short term new for long term same old same old with a heavy transaction cost.

    For billionaires and the handful of folks trying to change the world and are undoubtedly tilted megalomaniacs, theyre just a different breed and their desires likely dont fall in line with normal people. I doubt they are ever faithful or feel the need to be, they are too self important, etc…get a kick out of the power angle. Just weird.

     

    CordMcNally CordMcNally 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 1637
    Joined: 01/03/2017

    I just got a call from a med school classmate last weekend who is starting the divorce process and wanted advice. The only advice is basically, “sorry to hear that. Your next year or two is going to be very tough, but you will learn a lot.” I was going to tell him how to find a good divorce lawyer, but nearly every attorney does divorce… since it is so damn common. It’s sad though. He will be lucky to “just” lose all of his retirement and need to take out loans just to keep his private practice intact when all is said and done, and his kids will soon be 3 or 4 hours away… but I’ll let his attorney be the good news bearer on all that. I just suggested he go very slow with future women and realize that while women and happiness are easy to find anywhere, money is not.

    Marriage and divorce are just industries. It is an industry of trading money (property) for sex… or at least the general idea of that. Always has been, always will be. Look at dowry and arranged marriage traditions. Marriage caters to beta males who have the scarcity mentality with regard to mating (and it also caters to female hypergamy: women who themselves, or through family pressure, function as gold diggers). It keeps those guys happy and content (and non-violent); it was designed that way and still largely serves the same purpose. The problem is that marriage is now a totally unnecessary risk. It is too bad many people don’t learn that early in life, as opposed to during their first divorce (if they even learn it then?)…

    Marriage served a more logical purpose back 100+ years ago when 99% of women were stay-at-home moms or cook/cleaners and women couldn’t own land… or vote, hold office,  etc etc. Back then, marriage also meant wives couldn’t press rape charges against their husbands, and wives would get a portion of his land value if they divorced (back when divorce was rare and only considered due to bona fide infidelity, documented abuse, mental illness, etc). It effectively made the women the sexual property of husbands in exchange for some financial security. Not ideal, but again, it was somewhat necessary back in the day to avoid male violence and single mothers dying in the streets… and besides, those were also times when people were less educated and religion was much more powerfully ingrained into politics and social customs.

    In this day in age, legal marriage affords no advantage to the higher income partner. It might save them a small percentage on taxes or the lower income partner can be on health insurance with the higher income one (basically why gays want marriage), but those benefits are all dwarfed by the downsides that come with divorce. Nowadays, women can do essentially anything men can do in regards to finance, career, and investing or ownership.

    There is nothing wrong with having a wedding party or wearing rings or etc, but the actual legal marriage is a fool’s undertaking these days. Even if you are in the minority of couples who “make it” to a life-long marriage, you are likely to be one of the many “roommate” marriages that are just staying together for the kids or financial reasoning or fear of starting over. That is sad, yet those marriages are counted in the “success” percentage. Formal legal marriage just makes something that’s already traumatic and stressful (breaking up) and makes it much harder, longer, more expensive, and more hate-filled for both parties by doing formal divorce proceedings.

    If legal marriage and divorce were so “natural” and “necessary,” there wouldn’t be heavy religious and cultural pressures to do them. Little girls wouldn’t be indoctrinated about how marriage is essential for having kids (huge myth). You wouldn’t hear divorce attorney radio commercials and see ‘bridal expo’ billboards on every drive to work.

    I am in no way against long term relationships or monogamous relatoinships, and I think nearly everyone prefers them, but from both a financial and emotional health standpoint, legal marriage is the largest life risk you could ever take. You don’t need marriage to have a partner, to live together, to have kids, to take vacations together, or anything else. Marriage is a human myth and a boon a attorneys and legal systems. If you took all the marriages and divorces and child support and minor traffic stuff out of courts, that would kill well over half the caseloads, lol. GL to Bezos, my buddy, and many others who will learn the hard way. I hope they’ll never make the same mistake again.

    Related (and correct) info on what marriage was… versus what marriage now is:

    7 Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Get Married

    Click to expand…

    That’s a fairly jaded view point. Marriage is like a lot of other decisions that people make in regards to the fact that a lot of people make the wrong decision. People buy too much house, they buy too expensive of a car, they make poor financial decisions, and they marry people they shouldn’t marry.

    Click to expand…

    Do you think its really just the wrong people? It sucks that its so destructive, but after 25 years like the Bezos, it doesnt have to be wrong…people change and are different after that amount of time. Hopefully they were truly happy for 10-20 years and had a good relationship. Sometimes you end up different people.

    You should really seek to avoid things that dramatically increase chances of divorce (very young), or not marry if you’re not that kind of person (faithful,etc…). Marriage is work, hopefully at some age you realize its all basically the same and you’re trading short term new for long term same old same old with a heavy transaction cost.

    For billionaires and the handful of folks trying to change the world and are undoubtedly tilted megalomaniacs, theyre just a different breed and their desires likely dont fall in line with normal people. I doubt they are ever faithful or feel the need to be, they are too self important, etc…get a kick out of the power angle. Just weird.

     

    Click to expand…

    I do think in a lot of cases it’s the wrong person. I would, however, argue that people who are billionaires are probably better off not married as their desire, drive, etc. to get to that level likely doesn’t make a good quality in a marriage as they become self-consumed in their own success. People certainly change but I think it’s important for people to change together and support each other. If that doesn’t happen then the marriage likely won’t last.

    “But investing isn’t about beating others at their game. It’s about controlling yourself at your own game.”
    ― Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

    #180447 Reply
    Avatar IntensiveCareBear 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 55
    Joined: 12/22/2018

    Echo wrote:

    Click to expand…

    Wow, that is an interesting view on marriage.  I do think it minimizes the most important function of marriage, which is stability of families.  There is data that children who grow up in a stable, 2 parent family have a greater chance at success than children from broken families.  Marriage does make it hard for me to break up with my wife.  For the sake of my children, I would say that is a very good thing..

    Click to expand…

    I think you may be over-estimating the powers of Dumbo’s feather on this one…

    Why do you need legal marriage to have a family?

    Why would you would work harder on a family or relationship due to signing marriage papers…. can you not work hard out of love for your family and wife?

    In absence of marriage papers (yet still having kids, joint mortgage, etc etc), would it be easy to break up with your wife?

    Assuming it didn’t work out, will the higher income partner will not give financial (child) support and other monies to assist kids with… regardless of marriage?

    You make many good points and have good logic, but the idea that marriage = stronger family (esp legal marriage = stronger family) has no basis. Relationship skills, personal values, being a good person, and finding a quality partner are what make stronger families. That can be done with or without attorney fees and papers, so you can choose either way. GL and enjoy the weekend

    #180450 Reply
    Avatar Echo 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 48
    Joined: 03/09/2016
    Splash Refinancing Bonus
    Echo wrote: 

    Click to expand…

    Wow, that is an interesting view on marriage.  I do think it minimizes the most important function of marriage, which is stability of families.  There is data that children who grow up in a stable, 2 parent family have a greater chance at success than children from broken families.  Marriage does make it hard for me to break up with my wife.  For the sake of my children, I would say that is a very good thing..

    Click to expand…

    I think you may be over-estimating the powers of Dumbo’s feather on this one…

    Why do you need legal marriage to have a family?

    Why would you would work harder on a family or relationship due to signing marriage papers…. can you not work hard out of love for your family and wife?

    Assuming it didn’t work out, will the higher income partner will not give financial (child) support and other monies to assist kids with… regardless of marriage?

    You make many good points and have good logic, but the idea that marriage = stronger family (esp legal marriage = stronger family) has no basis. Relationship skills, personal values, being a good person, and finding a quality partner are what make stronger families. That can be done with or without attorney fees and papers, so you can choose either way.

    Click to expand…

    IntensiveCareBare,

    I don’t think the difficulty in breaking a marriage commitment will guarantee that someone will work harder on their marriage.  I do think, however, that it will prevent many people from bailing out so quickly.  Sometimes people just need time to cool off and need a little extra motivation to keep on their forward path.  The financial and legal difficulties of a divorce can be this motivation.

    Think about the amount of turnover in personnel that we see in health care.  Office nurse turnover is around 15% per year.  Physician turnover is in the very low single digits.  Why?  A nurse can turn in her two weeks notice today and start at the office across the street immediately.  For me to change jobs, I have to deal with the legal and financial difficulties of non-competes, tail insurance, and deal with painful licensing and credentialing processes.  I sure wanted to quit my job after my last weekend call where I was nearly pounded to death.  But after a few days of sleep and reflection, I realize that my job is just fine and another wouldn’t necessarily be better, and so I stay where I am at. That is good for the stability of my group, my hospital, and my patients.  And in fact, it is good for me as well.

    So marriage is similar.  I have a rough patch with the wife: feel disconnected, feel just like roommates, feel like we are growing apart.  The legal marriage makes it hard to get away, and it is less work for me to just work on the marriage and fix the issues.   In the end, I am happier than if I had left, and it clearly is better for the kids and family, and therefore makes a more stable society.

    I like the Dumbo’s feather reference; I think there is a new remake of Dumbo coming out soon.

    #180479 Reply
    Rogue Dad, M.D. Rogue Dad, M.D. 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 855
    Joined: 03/07/2016
    Mr. Money Moustache, generally credited FIRE movement pioneer and blogger, just got divorced in the past couple years also and documented exactly what happened to his net worth

    Click to expand…

    I read this when it posted, did not see him discuss his net worth after divorce.  He said being FI with a huge passive income stream removed the financial stress of the divorce, however I don’t see where he discussed the actual split of current revenue or future MMM revenue.  Can you direct us to that particular info if you saw it?

    http://www.RogueDadMD.com

    An alt-brown look at medicine, money, faith, and family

    #180484 Reply
    Avatar Kamban 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 2060
    Joined: 08/01/2016

    …Mr. Money Moustache, generally credited FIRE movement pioneer and blogger, just got divorced in the past couple years also and documented exactly what happened to his net worth. He is not a dumb guy, he was just playing a dumb game

    Click to expand…

    If I also played the dumb game like MMM of living on 30K and subjecting my wife to that standard ( bicycling in the snow in mid winter) there will be no doubt that my wife would not have it tolerated it for too long. It is one thing to be extravagant and blow your money and another to be miserly when you (as physician in my case) can earn well, save and invest well and also spend wisely. Balance in life leads to long term success.

    #180496 Reply
    Avatar Dont_know_mind 
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    Joined: 11/21/2017

    I wonder if Amazon is a better or worse investment now. Maybe he will be less distracted and can do even better. Or maybe his wife will use her voting shares to shaft him for the affair. This video is hilarious:

    #184407 Reply
    Liked by hatton1, Tim
    Avatar Kamban 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
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    Joined: 08/01/2016
    Or maybe his wife will use her voting shares to shaft him for the affair.

    Click to expand…

    I read that of the 16% or so of Amazon that they own, she is trying to get half of it  (community property state) but is willing to allow him to have the voting rights of her shares so that he continues to have control of the company and continue to increase its value. Smart thinking.

    #184463 Reply
    Liked by Zaphod, hatton1
    Avatar Dont_know_mind 
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    Status: Physician
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    Or maybe his wife will use her voting shares to shaft him for the affair.

    Click to expand…

    I read that of the 16% or so of Amazon that they own, she is trying to get half of it  (community property state) but is willing to allow him to have the voting rights of her shares so that he continues to have control of the company and continue to increase its value. Smart thinking.

    Click to expand…

    Leaking the sexting tweets between he and Lauren Sanchez to tabloids is pretty embarrasing.

    ‘I love you, alive girl. I will show you with my body, and my lips and my eyes, very soon.’

     ‘I want to smell you, I want to breathe you in. I want to hold you tight.… I want to kiss your lips…. I love you. I am in love with you.’

    ‘I miss you. I want to kiss you right now and tuck you in slowly and gently. And maybe in the morning wake you up and not be quite so gentle with you.’

    Then getting mocked by tabloid commentators that he sexts like an AI robot.

    Apparently the sexting messages were leaked by a friend of Sanchez. His ex-wife would presumably not be happy. Logically, you would think she would not use the voting rights to make his life difficult, but who knows.

    Amazon and JD.com look promising.

    Not sure which is a better bet, Amazon CEO with ex-wife issue or J.D CEO with dropped rape charge from last year.

     

    #185031 Reply
    q-school q-school 
    Participant
    Status: Physician
    Posts: 2193
    Joined: 05/07/2017

    As much as I enjoy being married and have a very happy marriage I have to think that some degree of mundane-ness and ordinary life are pretty key for a successful marriage. It’s clearly tough at the very bottom of the SES spectrum with the constant money pressure but I would think it would be equally if not more tough at the very very top. I’m not talking like spine surgeon who saves well I’m talking Zuck, Bezos, NFL players, movie stars etc.

    At some point you are just basically being constantly worshiped and showered with attention and you have the money to do literally anything you want to do and in the case of Bezos/Zuck to do EVERYTHING you want to do. I don’t care how grounded you are that’s got to mess with your brain pretty seriously.

    IMHO marriages deepen and strengthen largely through the mundane business of day to day life. Yeah it’s great to do 2 weeks in Fiji but you learn more about each other and how to be a good partner by helping each other change the sheets and taking the trash out. I’m not saying it’s not possible for the very wealthy to have meaningful relationships, I would just imagine that the sweet spot for marital success lies in sort of the $80,000-$1,000,000 income bracket as broad and otherwise silly as such a bracket would be.

    Click to expand…

    yes but did the super rich people choose that?  iow, they could have retired at any time.  but their commitment, passion, whatever led them to keep pushing the boundaries of what is possible.  and there may well be numerous people that we never hear about who are super wealthy and have successful marriages.  gates still married obviously by way of counterpoint.  and i’m not even sure staying married means you are happy.

    i vividly remember me telling my wife during the tiger woods incident that there is no way tiger woods could ever remain faithful during his marriage.  too much time away, too much money, too many floozies willing to throw themselves at him.  she thought he could and should control himself.   i thought he should but knew he couldn’t.  so in summary, i kind of agree and kind of don’t.

    #185037 Reply
    portlandia portlandia 
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    i vividly remember me telling my wife during the tiger woods incident that there is no way tiger woods could ever remain faithful during his marriage.  too much time away, too much money, too many floozies willing to throw themselves at him.  she thought he could and should control himself.   i thought he should but knew he couldn’t.  so in summary, i kind of agree and kind of don’t.

    Click to expand…

    We just cannot understand the amount of temptation these fabulously wealthy celebrities face. Imagine if everytime you walked out of the house, store, gym, really anywhere, there were beautiful women throwing themselves at you? Not to mention all the people in your life with their lips seemingly surgically attached to your posterior would tend to inflate the ego. And with the money to pursue any bad idea/self destructive behavior? No thanks. Being a celebrity is a curse in my book-self inflicted, but a curse nonetheless. It’s a small miracle when a celebrity is semi-normal as money, power and fame aren’t the typical ingredients in “grounded-ness.”

     

     

     

    #185105 Reply
    Zaphod Zaphod 
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    Status: Physician, Small Business Owner
    Posts: 5415
    Joined: 01/12/2016
    i vividly remember me telling my wife during the tiger woods incident that there is no way tiger woods could ever remain faithful during his marriage.  too much time away, too much money, too many floozies willing to throw themselves at him.  she thought he could and should control himself.   i thought he should but knew he couldn’t.  so in summary, i kind of agree and kind of don’t. 

    Click to expand…

    We just cannot understand the amount of temptation these fabulously wealthy celebrities face. Imagine if everytime you walked out of the house, store, gym, really anywhere, there were beautiful women throwing themselves at you? Not to mention all the people in your life with their lips seemingly surgically attached to your posterior would tend to inflate the ego. And with the money to pursue any bad idea/self destructive behavior? No thanks. Being a celebrity is a curse in my book-self inflicted, but a curse nonetheless. It’s a small miracle when a celebrity is semi-normal as money, power and fame aren’t the typical ingredients in “grounded-ness.”

     

     

     

    Click to expand…

    And given the mentality to be a top competitor kind of goes hand in hand with more likely to cheat, ie, testosterone, ego, narcissism, etc…

    #185124 Reply
    Liked by q-school
    MPMD MPMD 
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    Earnest refinancing bonus

     

    i vividly remember me telling my wife during the tiger woods incident that there is no way tiger woods could ever remain faithful during his marriage.  too much time away, too much money, too many floozies willing to throw themselves at him.  she thought he could and should control himself.   i thought he should but knew he couldn’t.  so in summary, i kind of agree and kind of don’t.

    Click to expand…

    On this point a very fine old Jesuit priest once told me that it was prudent for a gentleman to avoid the “proximate occasion of sin.”

    I find that this is sound advice for all married people, Tiger and otherwise.

    #185130 Reply
    Liked by portlandia
    q-school q-school 
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    i vividly remember me telling my wife during the tiger woods incident that there is no way tiger woods could ever remain faithful during his marriage.  too much time away, too much money, too many floozies willing to throw themselves at him.  she thought he could and should control himself.   i thought he should but knew he couldn’t.  so in summary, i kind of agree and kind of don’t.

    Click to expand…

    On this point a very fine old Jesuit priest once told me that it was prudent for a gentleman to avoid the “proximate occasion of sin.”

    I find that this is sound advice for all married people, Tiger and otherwise.

    Click to expand…

    Agreed.  However some people have impulse control issues.   Some people think the rules don’t apply or that they can get away with it.

    i try not to judge.  I’m hoping to remain married to my first wife.

    🙂

     

    #185132 Reply

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