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  • CordMcNally CordMcNally 
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    I’m afraid you are taking an uninformed overly simplistic view of the problem. Yes excess calories are being consumed obviously, however a whole host of hormones are being secreted to promote the intake of these calories and to promote weight retention. Arguably it’s an involuntary process.

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    How come these neurohormonal processes have become such a new thing (and apparently more pronounced) in the last 50 or so years?  Has evolution changed so much in the last century compared with the last hundreds of thousands of years? How come humans are the only mammals that struggle so much with this obesity epidemic?

    but there’s more to the story here than eat less, exercise more, stop shoveling cheeseburgers into your mouth.

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    You’ve got to admit, this would be a hell of a start for a large majority of people.

    “But investing isn’t about beating others at their game. It’s about controlling yourself at your own game.”
    ― Benjamin Graham, The Intelligent Investor

    #214104 Reply
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    Avatar Panscan 
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    I’m afraid you are taking an uninformed overly simplistic view of the problem. Yes excess calories are being consumed obviously, however a whole host of hormones are being secreted to promote the intake of these calories and to promote weight retention. Arguably it’s an involuntary process.

    Click to expand…

    How come these neurohormonal processes have become such a new thing (and apparently more pronounced) in the last 50 or so years?  Has evolution changed so much in the last century compared with the last hundreds of thousands of years? How come humans are the only mammals that struggle so much with this obesity epidemic?

    but there’s more to the story here than eat less, exercise more, stop shoveling cheeseburgers into your mouth. 

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    You’ve got to admit, this would be a hell of a start for a large majority of people.

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    because thats when as a society we started making excuses for everyone else’s shortcomings

    #214129 Reply
    Liked by HikingDO
    Avatar Panscan 
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    Ever wonder why obese people can lose weight fairly easily only to regain it? Do you think they all lack will power? Do you think people like being fat?

    Let’s say Fatlittlepig weighs 160 lbs
    Let’s say obese little pig weighs 260 and manages to lose 100 lbs through caloric restriction. Once obese little pig gets down to 160 lbs there are a whole host of innate neuro hormonal processes which kick in to encourage his body to regain weight, in fact to maintain 160 he has to take in fewer calories and exercise far more than Fatlittlepig although they both are at the same weight. These biochemical processes are extremely powerful, it’s not just willpower at that point.

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    yes, hence why they became obese to begin with.

     

    does it not seem logical that someone who previously became fat could easily become fat again? just like a drug addict could become an addict again, or if you get a d on a test you are more likely to get another d?…. pretty basic

    #214130 Reply
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    Avatar Panscan 
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    As physician it is so easy to look down upon obese patients, stereotype them, groan about them, Fatlittlepig will be honest and say that FLP does it too, but there’s more to the story here than eat less, exercise more, stop shoveling cheeseburgers into your mouth.

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    what data is there to support this notion? show me the controlled studies of people actually following exercise and diet regimens and not obtaining better body compositions.

    You don’t seem like a person to make excuses, I don’t know why you are making them now.

     

    it’s literally calories in, calories out. if you want to be a high level athlete or ms america? sure then we can go into some more nuances. but to not be considered obese? literally just calories in vs out

    #214131 Reply
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    Avatar trebizond 
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    As physician it is so easy to look down upon obese patients, stereotype them, groan about them, Fatlittlepig will be honest and say that FLP does it too, but there’s more to the story here than eat less, exercise more, stop shoveling cheeseburgers into your mouth.

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    what data is there to support this notion? show me the controlled studies of people actually following exercise and diet regimens and not obtaining better body compositions.

    You don’t seem like a person to make excuses, I don’t know why you are making them now.

     

    it’s literally calories in, calories out. if you want to be a high level athlete or ms america? sure then we can go into some more nuances. but to not be considered obese? literally just calories in vs out

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    Why don’t you read the Obesity Code? Off the top of my head, Fung cites trials where they made sedentary people train and ultimately run marathons. The men had an average of 5 lbs weight loss. The women had 0. There’s plenty of studies that point away from the monolithic “you fail because you’re lazy and lack self-control” hypothesis.

     

    Moreover the notion must be entertained if you want to consider an alternative hypothesis that doesn’t make nearly everyone who tried to lose weight an out of control liar.

    #214206 Reply
    Liked by jessikaur
    Lordosis Lordosis 
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    I do not think most of them are liars.  I think a large portion of it is education.  Some people do not really know what is healthy.   Some people really think what they are doing is eating 1200 cal a day and gaining weight and do not connect the dots until they track and measure.

    “Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right.”

    #214209 Reply
    Avatar jessikaur 
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    As duped person enamored by his(Dr. Fung’s) strategy, I may have been blind to some of his con like suppositions. I always am willing to learn. Can you please remind or identify for me some of the idiotic claims?

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    Well there were two things in the post I responded to.  Specifically,

    1. The idea that there is anyone out there that claims 1200 kcal/day is sufficient for a maintenance diet for an adult.  Literally no one is claiming this, yet he just lies and says it’s the dogma.  I’m not sure what the “dogma” is.  But that’s definitely not it.  So he fabricates a claim, represents it as “dogma” and then attacks it.  It’s intellectually dishonest and should be obvious to anyone.

    2. He then goes on to claim that he was gaining weight on 1200 kcal a day despite exercising.  Even the most fervent Fung believer has to know that’s clearly impossible. It’s an obviously false claim.  Do you believe it?

     

    I can understand being “duped” by him.  I’ve repeatedly said his strategy works.  That’s not the problem.

     

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    OK that’s it. I couldn’t sit here and not respond to this. In order for me to lose weight by the calories in calories out theory, I had to be on a 1200 KCAL diet, and exercise almost two hours a day, and I WAS gaining weight. that is not a lie, that is a fact, and the less calories I ate, the more miserable I became that is a fact (for me)

    I know you do not know me, but if you did, you would see that I am a disciplined person, as disciplined as they come. I was working 3.5 jobs plus an MBA. I was documenting EVERYTHING I was eating into my fitness pal (even half a walnut).

    Morning, wake up, go to job one, drink plenty of coffee with milk and fake sugars – 50 calories. as leaving job one to job two, I would swing by the doctors lounge for more coffee, and fruit — melons (50 calories) .. it took me thirty minutes to drive to job two. by the time I reached job two around 10am, I was starving!!! I would round on my patients, and eat a 100 calorie snack pack of something or other… still dying of actual hunger, so I would need to eat my lunch as early as possible. this lunch consisted either of chicken or beans with white rice 1/2 cup of beans about 100 calories, 1/2 cup of rice 100 calories, and the chicken was 200 calories. (I switched back and forth on this) THEN, I would finish my notes, and after that I would “exercise” around the hospital, usually consisted of an hour of walking while I waited for my new patients to come in. done by three.. again, I am still hungry, drive home. and I liked to wash the hospital away by going for a swim in the lake, I would drink a cup of green tea before doing it to get my energy level up, swim for almost an hour taking breaks to answer pages.. come back in, have a 100 calories of popcorn waiting for my husband to get home as he does our cooking. that didn’t help, ate another 100 calories of cookies/chips/nuts whatever we had that was easy for me to get into. and I was ready to bite my husbands head off if he was even a minute late. and we would eat largely what we eat now (meats, vegetables, maybe some extra carbs of rice, or pasta, which I would measure out each calorie and make sure that it was 600 to get to my 1200) anyway, at the height of my “obesity” I was 136 pounds, miserable, with mood swings.

    So, I took a break from work as per this post, and started listening to business podcasts mainly James Altichur and he has top performers of the world on his podcast, anyway, one of them was about health and nutrition and I became VERY interested as what was said on the podcast was not what we were taught in school. Anyway, I decided to test the theory, first I started with getting rid of ALL processed food. That got me down to 126, and I was just hovering around there, but would start to creep back up to 130 with no real changes. And technically I was kind of intermittent fasting anyway because I never enjoyed breakfast, but now I got rid of the calories in my coffee, and skipped eating that fruit… my calories on this “diet” have actually increased to WAY over 1200 and I was losing weight. I couldn’t believe it, and I was feeling great. My husband thinks that my personality has completely changed, I’m more serene, understanding, there’s no yo-yo moods.

    To your second point: I believe it, I lived it!!!

    There’s someone on here that mentioned that if they ate 3000 calories of avocado they’d gain weight. I dare you to try it for a week! I can almost guarantee that you will lose weight, specifically belly fat as you’ll be in nutritional ketosis. Your bowel movements will be excellent! your energy level will be up, and because of the fat content, I seriously doubt you will be hungry, in fact, i think you’d be forcing yourself to eat those ten avocados. do it to prove it to yourself, you already know what happens when you eat 3K cal of junk.

    And if you don’t want to use yourself as a guinea pig, there’s a film on Netflix called “that sugar film” in which a man tested the calorie theory by eating foods that touted to be “health foods” with no change in calories, and the results between the diets was dramatic.

    I am now 121 pounds (lost about 15 pounds of body fat) do NOT feel deprived, exercise habits have changed somewhat, as I do the HIIT training, walk on the treadmill, jump on the trampoline, swim, and do my bodyweight exercises. I “fast” for about 18 hours every day, and for about 90% of the time I follow my recommended diet. I eat pasta, I eat bread, I have desserts, but it is not every day, and is not a major part of my diet, but I have become metabolically flexible with ultra-sensitive insulin that I can handle the sugar loads, and I do know when I fall off the wagon, I most definitely gain the weight.

    I believe the set point theory. your body likes to be in equilibrium, so it gets used to eating 1200 calories a day, and then in order to lose more weight your metabolic rate slows down, you have to go even lower to get the same result. so I absolutely believe my patients when they say they have been good (they will admit when they have been bad) and that they’re not losing weight. If I needed to prove it to myself, I can see in the results that I’m getting from the nursing staff, they are following the diet (even more anally than I anticipated) and they are getting amazing results and sticking to it! And I am NOT saying they weren’t skeptical, because they really were, but people have been trying and failing to lose weight for YEARS (myself included, or struggling to maintain)

    I’m posting some pics of my food, so you can see there is no deprivation and the calorie content has got to be higher if not equal as you say, those are just pics of our dinners. in addition to that, I also eat a huge salad every single day with walnuts, lots of olive oil, and avocado. also share a bottle of wine almost every night with my hubs.

    Fasting BG is 70s. TGs are 48. HDL is 85.

     

    #214227 Reply
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    Avatar jessikaur 
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    Lots of my patients claim to eat “nothing” and still gain weight. Unless you measure portions carefully most have no idea how much they consume. I think the obesity epidemic has little to do with insulin levels and more to do with a lack of self control rampant in our society.

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    again. this is a huge part of the problem.

    #214233 Reply
    Liked by HikingDO
    Avatar jessikaur 
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    disagree, the more i learn about obesity the more I realize it is not about self control or lack thereof. There are a whole host of neurohormonal, and biological mechanisms in play which work to promote weight regain after weight loss. to say the obesity epidemic is about a lack of self control is intellectually lazy.

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    100% agree with this… and I never thought I would agree with a fat little pig. hahah.

    #214235 Reply
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    Avatar jessikaur 
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    Ever wonder why obese people can lose weight fairly easily only to regain it? Do you think they all lack will power? Do you think people like being fat?

    Let’s say Fatlittlepig weighs 160 lbs
    Let’s say obese little pig weighs 260 and manages to lose 100 lbs through caloric restriction. Once obese little pig gets down to 160 lbs there are a whole host of innate neuro hormonal processes which kick in to encourage his body to regain weight, in fact to maintain 160 he has to take in fewer calories and exercise far more than Fatlittlepig although they both are at the same weight. These biochemical processes are extremely powerful, it’s not just willpower at that point.

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    I literally could not have said this better myself.

    #214236 Reply
    Avatar jessikaur 
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    How come these neurohormonal processes have become such a new thing (and apparently more pronounced) in the last 50 or so years? Has evolution changed so much in the last century compared with the last hundreds of thousands of years? How come humans are the only mammals that struggle so much with this obesity epidemic?

    Click to expand…

    Humans are not the only mammals… look at your pets. Do they share a lot of human diseases not seen out in animal in the wild? based upon the processed junk you’re feeding them and not their typical diet.

    Animals in the wild such as tigers or lions hunt, eat the meat, and then spend the rest of the week fasting and digesting and living off the food they consumed. they do not hunt again until they are hungry, they do not hunt and store food in a fridge somewhere

    if you don’t believe Dr. Fungs work, please look at Dr. Panda (PhD and has done studies on animals) on circadian rhythms and time restricted eating.

    attaching link here, couldn’t hurt you to listen to it while exercise: https://www.ihmc.us/stemtalk/episode-79/

    #214238 Reply
    Lithium Lithium 
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    If nothing else, this thread has quelled any interest I had in reading the Obesity Code. I feel like I am reading a bunch of Facebook level arguments here.

    #214239 Reply
    Avatar jessikaur 
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    As physician it is so easy to look down upon obese patients, stereotype them, groan about them, Fatlittlepig will be honest and say that FLP does it too, but there’s more to the story here than eat less, exercise more, stop shoveling cheeseburgers into your mouth.

    Click to expand…

    what data is there to support this notion? show me the controlled studies of people actually following exercise and diet regimens and not obtaining better body compositions.

    You don’t seem like a person to make excuses, I don’t know why you are making them now.

     

    it’s literally calories in, calories out. if you want to be a high level athlete or ms america? sure then we can go into some more nuances. but to not be considered obese? literally just calories in vs out

    Click to expand…

    this is wrong, look at the data concerning the contestants on “biggest loser” they’ve done studies on them and followed up with them.

    #214240 Reply
    Avatar BCBiker 
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    Since starting after training job I have put on more weight than I ever have. The first time I have ever felt it was out of control. When I look at what has changed, I still exercise about 90 mins per day on bike commute, my diet has never been perfect but not horrible.  The major thing that changed is I started a consulting job that requires me to stay up until 11-midnight.  This means I went from a typical 7-8 hours of sleep to 5-6 hours.  Ever since then my weight seems it was out of control despite many of the classic controls like low carb, low calorie, exercise.  I recently read “Why We Sleep” and I think that understanding the negative aspects of not having a full night sleep can explain a lot of the the issues I am having and event the general obesity issue.  People are not getting good sleep which leads to a huge amount of negative physiologic problems that makes people less healthy. Since reading that book, I am much more aware of the need for full sleep and try to achieve this every night.  This has reversed the course I was on. Your result might vary but the OP describes a lifestyle that likely does not put good emphasis on sleeping well.  It is hard to modify your life once you have built-in not sleeping but it really can help you live a healthy and better life.

    #214249 Reply
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    fatlittlepig fatlittlepig 
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    I thought this was well known by medical professionals, but exercise in and of itself is terribly ineffective for weight loss. (it is however effective for weight maintenance, especially after weight loss )

    Don’t get me wrong, there will never be anything better for your overall health than exercise. Fatlittlepig happens to be an avid exerciser.

    Fatlittlepig has completed several half marathons, probably a dozen 5/10Ks, and a marathon- no weight loss even when running 30+miles/week, weight was stable during all training cycles.

    as demonstrated by this thread, physicians have a fairly pedestrian understanding of the complexity of obesity, weight loss, nutrition, weight gain, etc etc. It’s an extremely complex interaction of dietary choices, genetics, yes (poor choices), hormones, sleep etc etc. As I alluded to in an earlier post, after significant weight loss, the obese person’s physiology acts as if his/her body is “starving,” the weight will creep back, it’s not a failure of will power. It would be easy for someone such as FLP with a normal BMI to say, hey fat obese pig: eat less, exercise more, calories in vs calories blah blah, unfortunately it just isn’t that easy or straightforward.

     

    #214262 Reply

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