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UC phasing out SATs

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Tim View Post

    Well, let me know when you get agreement on the subjects to be covered and the grading. And then a new test each time it's given. There isn't even a standard curriculum. "It wouldn't be hard?" It's not the questions, it's the subject matter,Like verbal and mathematics. So controversial.
    Well as far as math is concerned, I think the AP calculus exam would be a far better test for competitive colleges (which the top UC schools are) than the math SAT. So here's what I'd do:

    -don't score it on a 1-5 scale, just do a raw score
    -add a couple of easy sections of algebra/geometry for the people who can't do calculus.
    -throw in some differential equations, vector calculus for kids that are past basic calculus.

    Voila, a better test than the SAT Math for sure. Not perfect, and certainly open to many of the same criticisms. But, in my opinion, it's clearly better. And that took about 30 seconds. Surely even more effort would yield something better still.

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    • #77
      I’ll admit I’m probably biased as someone who does well on standardized tests without ridiculously expensive tutoring, but this decision doesn’t make sense to me.

      Life isn’t fair, and getting rid of an objective test isn’t going to make it any more fair because all the same benefits that helped upper SES folks do well on the SAT are still there. In fact, at least with the SAT the kid in question had to actually perform, unless you’re a Laughlin at least. If they really want to go there, just make it a literal lottery system. ************************ make it a lottery system where 80% of the spots go to the poorest and everyone else can fight for the rest. Then cal and UCLA don’t seem so prestigious and the rat race can be over. Then rich kids can feel what it’s like to be screwed. I like that better actually.

      Also, are we really to believe that the UC system is going to come up with a test that eliminates the bias in favor on wealthy people. I don’t think that’s possible. I bet you could make a test about life in the ghetto and rich Asian kids will still get stop scores. And is this new test going to be free or will it still cost 100s to take and prepare for using official materials. If they really wanted to reduce barriers maybe they can stop charging so much for resources that are essentially necessary to do well.

      And this pales in comparison to the cost of the MCAT, those official study materials, the new ca$per “situational awareness exam” (whose results you cannot see and expires every year because I suppose your empathy changes every year) AND the new duplicate situational awareness exam by UC Davis.

      And of course that pales in comparison to everything in med school.

      When they make these tests and testing materials free that’s when I’ll be convinced they care more about equality than their pocket books.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by AR View Post

        I think the main problem with this in the US is that not going to college is seen as a failure of sorts.

        There are plenty of trades you can get into with no college and make very good income. Even more sophisticated jobs. I've got a friend that makes ~300k/yr developing software. Mostly self-taught, but did do some coding boot camp type things. I'm sure he would have done fine in college, but I don't know that it had anything to offer him.

        And even though he is successful, he is somewhat self-conscious about not having gone to college, even though he is doing better than the vast majority who did.
        Yeah, I've had this discussion with my sister and her then husband a few years ago. They got all uppity that "their kids WILL go to college" yet both admitted neither will contribute since nobody paid their way. I don't necessarily disagree with that financial plan. Heck, I paid my own way through cumulative scholarships, but I also think it's garbage to "force" your kid to go into debt just to get a degree.

        I raised the point that college doesn't equate success. Lots of great vocations out there from CC or VoTech programs. Throw in some hard work and business sense, one can really really take off. That idea was met with some scorn

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        • #79
          Originally posted by AR View Post
          I think the main problem with this in the US is that not going to college is seen as a failure of sorts.
          There are plenty of trades you can get into with no college and make very good income. Even more sophisticated jobs. I've got a friend that makes ~300k/yr developing software. Mostly self-taught, but did do some coding boot camp type things. I'm sure he would have done fine in college, but I don't know that it had anything to offer him.
          And even though he is successful, he is somewhat self-conscious about not having gone to college, even though he is doing better than the vast majority who did.
          Everyone should be able to get a loan for a house.
          Everyone should be able to get a loan for college.
          What could go wrong? Statistics don't lie, it's a systemic socioeconomic conspiracy is the immediate problem identified. Not solved.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by AR View Post

            Well as far as math is concerned, I think the AP calculus exam would be a far better test for competitive colleges (which the top UC schools are) than the math SAT. So here's what I'd do:

            -don't score it on a 1-5 scale, just do a raw score
            -add a couple of easy sections of algebra/geometry for the people who can't do calculus.
            -throw in some differential equations, vector calculus for kids that are past basic calculus.

            Voila, a better test than the SAT Math for sure. Not perfect, and certainly open to many of the same criticisms. But, in my opinion, it's clearly better. And that took about 30 seconds. Surely even more effort would yield something better still.
            LOL, the problem is that certain groups are doing poorly on the test, and you want to put integrals and differential equations on the test?

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by AR View Post

              Well as far as math is concerned, I think the AP calculus exam would be a far better test for competitive colleges (which the top UC schools are) than the math SAT. So here's what I'd do:

              -don't score it on a 1-5 scale, just do a raw score
              -add a couple of easy sections of algebra/geometry for the people who can't do calculus.
              -throw in some differential equations, vector calculus for kids that are past basic calculus.

              Voila, a better test than the SAT Math for sure. Not perfect, and certainly open to many of the same criticisms. But, in my opinion, it's clearly better. And that took about 30 seconds. Surely even more effort would yield something better still.
              You do know that you are testing beyond the math required for college. But that's ok. And the last math normally required is completed the senior year after the SAT's.
              The test you designed is brilliant. Test people on classes that they haven't taken. Just saying.

              One other thought, why not teach college level classes in college? We have educationally blurred the lines between high school and college. Why? If you have mastered the high school level it is time to move on. Easier and better for the student. UNLESS we want to value the social scene.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by AR View Post

                I think improvement would mean differentiating people at the top. I'm not really up to date on what the curve is like these days, but I think there is a very wide range of intelligence between say 1300 and 1400. For a place like Berkeley, that's about the range where things cut off. I think a more challenging test would better stratify those kids.
                That's a completely separate issue than what is being discussed. Why is 1300 vs 1400 such a big deal when those aren't even the max score?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by AR View Post

                  Well as far as math is concerned, I think the AP calculus exam would be a far better test for competitive colleges (which the top UC schools are) than the math SAT. So here's what I'd do:

                  -don't score it on a 1-5 scale, just do a raw score
                  -add a couple of easy sections of algebra/geometry for the people who can't do calculus.
                  -throw in some differential equations, vector calculus for kids that are past basic calculus.

                  Voila, a better test than the SAT Math for sure. Not perfect, and certainly open to many of the same criticisms. But, in my opinion, it's clearly better. And that took about 30 seconds. Surely even more effort would yield something better still.
                  Results of 2018 AP tests with breakdown by race:

                  https://www.insidehighered.com/admis...al-gaps-remain

                  Guess we can’t use AP tests any more either.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Panscan View Post

                    That's a completely separate issue than what is being discussed. Why is 1300 vs 1400 such a big deal when those aren't even the max score?
                    bc 1400 (on the scale of 1600) is usually the cut off for 2 SD from mean. So a school may use that as the cutoff to start reviewing applications. Like the MCATs the scores are not raw scores, they are scaled based on the raw score to fit close to a bell curve based on past years results. And you may be able to get someone who would score a 1300 on their own to a 1400 with enough practice and prep.

                    re: not going to college for some- I hope the student loan crisis does bring a shift away from "you must have a college degree to succeed" that was pushed during my childhood. Some kids are different and do not need to go to college just to get a degree "to be successful". Many plumbers, laborers, tech people etc who make a lot more than we think that never got a college degree. Maybe college costs will decrease then. I know its a pipe dream.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by fatlittlepig View Post

                      LOL, the problem is that certain groups are doing poorly on the test, and you want to put integrals and differential equations on the test?
                      I never said that was a problem. At least I don't think it is. Which is why I think my test is better.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Panscan View Post

                        That's a completely separate issue than what is being discussed. Why is 1300 vs 1400 such a big deal when those aren't even the max score?
                        I explained in the post you quoted. It looks like billy answered it more thoroughly.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Panscan View Post

                          This is what the majority of the rest of the world does, but everyone would lose their minds if we tried that here and denied someone the ability to take on 500k in debt to be a social worker or teacher.

                          I have no problem with someone taking out 500k in debt that will take them a lifetime to pay back. I have a problem with me personally having to pay it back for them.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            If they mandated that the ethnic student population mirror their football team, that would be entertaining.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by burritos View Post
                              If they mandated that the ethnic student population mirror their football team, that would be entertaining.
                              Or that the football team had to meet the same minimum SAT cutoff as folks who weren’t recruited by the athletic department.

                              That would make for a fun list. Which division 1 schools have the highest minimum academic admission requirements for their football and basketball programs? Stanford, the service academies, maybe BYU?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Wait! Colleges allow the students ability to play sports affect admissions? My kids are privileged and get to start in youth soccer at age 5. I think they should just compose the college sports teams by lottery to make it more fair.

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