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  • #91







    Zaphod — for those in the Central Valley of California, you can drive a Fiat 500e FOR FREE for three years.  I don’t think you can get much cheaper than free
    Click to expand…


    You would have a hard time paying me to drive that thing. I dont like little cars for physics reasons.
    Click to expand...


    I have to admit, if I had access to one, I'd probably get it.  Absolutely no way it's my everyday commuter, but it would be a fun little car to poke around town.  But it's essentially like riding a motorcycle in the physics department, but even worse since it doesn't have enough power to get out of its own way.

    Even at $39/mo or $0/mo, it's not truly free.  At a minimum there is registration and insurance.  Some jurisdictions (even the green states) even charge you an electric vehicle tax since you don't buy any taxed gasoline.

    Comment


    • #92










      Zaphod — for those in the Central Valley of California, you can drive a Fiat 500e FOR FREE for three years.  I don’t think you can get much cheaper than free
      Click to expand…


      You would have a hard time paying me to drive that thing. I dont like little cars for physics reasons.
      Click to expand…


      I have to admit, if I had access to one, I’d probably get it.  Absolutely no way it’s my everyday commuter, but it would be a fun little car to poke around town.  But it’s essentially like riding a motorcycle in the physics department, but even worse since it doesn’t have enough power to get out of its own way.

      Even at $39/mo or $0/mo, it’s not truly free.  At a minimum there is registration and insurance.  Some jurisdictions (even the green states) even charge you an electric vehicle tax since you don’t buy any taxed gasoline.
      Click to expand...


      Maybe for little runs around your beach town where your never going more than 20mph. Great use case there.

      Comment


      • #93




        You have to get all those free handouts, tax incentives, free parking and charging, manufacturer incentives, etc., to make the electric car even slightly compelling from a personal finance standpoint.  The only way that the electric car is a frugal choice is if you are at the very low end of the spectrum driving one of those cars that those handful of states force the manufacturers to sell, that they literally have to give away, like a fiat or a smart car.   And even then it’s still a very wasteful choice when you consider that you’re blowing tens of thousands of dollars of the taxpayer’s money and the manufacturer’s money every time you buy one.

        And when the time comes that these cars are ubiquitous and the tech improves to actually make these vehicles practical, do you think all the free handouts will still exist?  No way!  Kiss your tax incentives, free charging, free parking spots and free cars goodbye.

        As said above, for an apples to apples comparison, you’re paying at least $5k, $10k, $20k++ more for a comparable electric vehicle.  That delta buys an awful lot of gasoline before you even get to break-even.  And you never really truly break even since the electric cars depreciate so hard compared to petrol.  Even if you make it to some magical break even point, the battery pack itself is a wear item, and costs anywhere from $6k to $12k or more to buy a new battery pack, plus labor, so you start the break-even clock all over again.

        Fact remains is that gasoline was still cheap even when it was expensive.  Sure it was irritating paying $3.00 a gallon, but it wasn’t by any means a burden. I even visited cali and bought a few $4.50/gallon tanks of premium, big deal.  Even then it’s still the cheapest way to travel and will be hard for electricity to overcome.
        Click to expand...


        First of all, cars in general are a very poor choice of transportation if you want to be frugal with your finances.  If we're going to talk about that, lets talk about wider use of trains, bicycles, and walking.  Cars are a ridiculously expensive depreciating asset that we choose to use because we like them, not because they are the best way to get around financially speaking.

        But, I'm not claiming that an electric car is a frugal choice right now compared to most cars.  However, I am claiming that they definitely will be in the very near future.  We're still in the early adopter stage.  The industry needed a boost to get off the ground.  There's nothing wrong with that especially when we're talking about a technology that benefits everyone (electricity is cleaner than gasoline, even with our current grid).  Many new technologies require help from the government to get their feet off the ground.  The highways we all rely on today required massive state, local, and federal subsidies for their initial adoption to be successful.  When I-75 came through my town in the 1950s, the city had to bulldoze entire neighborhoods and even a baseball stadium to make way for it.  Don't tell me that was all privately funded by the automobile industry.  Tax payers were on the hook for that too.

        And the tax incentives currently available today are scheduled to go away as the industry picks up.  As battery technology continues to improve and become cheaper, those tax credits won't be needed anyway.  And battery wear is likely a non-issue.  I saw a study from BMW that showed only an 8% battery efficiency loss after 100k miles.  That's nothing.  You don't need a new battery if it's only lost 8% of its power.  Besides, people don't hold on to cars that long anyway.  This will be especially true when EVs routinely get 400+ miles range/charge which won't be hard with solid state batteries.

        I get that there are always a lot of haters whenever something new like this comes around and becomes popular.  You don't have to like EVs now and you don't have to worry about ever buying one if you don't want to.  But, they're here to stay and if I had money to gamble, I'd bet that eventually all the haters are going to be driving them too.

        Comment


        • #94







          You have to get all those free handouts, tax incentives, free parking and charging, manufacturer incentives, etc., to make the electric car even slightly compelling from a personal finance standpoint.  The only way that the electric car is a frugal choice is if you are at the very low end of the spectrum driving one of those cars that those handful of states force the manufacturers to sell, that they literally have to give away, like a fiat or a smart car.   And even then it’s still a very wasteful choice when you consider that you’re blowing tens of thousands of dollars of the taxpayer’s money and the manufacturer’s money every time you buy one.

          And when the time comes that these cars are ubiquitous and the tech improves to actually make these vehicles practical, do you think all the free handouts will still exist?  No way!  Kiss your tax incentives, free charging, free parking spots and free cars goodbye.

          As said above, for an apples to apples comparison, you’re paying at least $5k, $10k, $20k++ more for a comparable electric vehicle.  That delta buys an awful lot of gasoline before you even get to break-even.  And you never really truly break even since the electric cars depreciate so hard compared to petrol.  Even if you make it to some magical break even point, the battery pack itself is a wear item, and costs anywhere from $6k to $12k or more to buy a new battery pack, plus labor, so you start the break-even clock all over again.

          Fact remains is that gasoline was still cheap even when it was expensive.  Sure it was irritating paying $3.00 a gallon, but it wasn’t by any means a burden. I even visited cali and bought a few $4.50/gallon tanks of premium, big deal.  Even then it’s still the cheapest way to travel and will be hard for electricity to overcome.
          Click to expand…


          First of all, cars in general are a very poor choice of transportation if you want to be frugal with your finances.  If we’re going to talk about that, lets talk about wider use of trains, bicycles, and walking.  Cars are a ridiculously expensive depreciating asset that we choose to use because we like them, not because they are the best way to get around financially speaking.

          But, I’m not claiming that an electric car is a frugal choice right now compared to most cars.  However, I am claiming that they definitely will be in the very near future.  We’re still in the early adopter stage.  The industry needed a boost to get off the ground.  There’s nothing wrong with that especially when we’re talking about a technology that benefits everyone (electricity is cleaner than gasoline, even with our current grid).  Many new technologies require help from the government to get their feet off the ground.  The highways we all rely on today required massive state, local, and federal subsidies for their initial adoption to be successful.  When I-75 came through my town in the 1950s, the city had to bulldoze entire neighborhoods and even a baseball stadium to make way for it.  Don’t tell me that was all privately funded by the automobile industry.  Tax payers were on the hook for that too.

          And the tax incentives currently available today are scheduled to go away as the industry picks up.  As battery technology continues to improve and become cheaper, those tax credits won’t be needed anyway.  And battery wear is likely a non-issue.  I saw a study from BMW that showed only an 8% battery efficiency loss after 100k miles.  That’s nothing.  You don’t need a new battery if it’s only lost 8% of its power.  Besides, people don’t hold on to cars that long anyway.  This will be especially true when EVs routinely get 400+ miles range/charge which won’t be hard with solid state batteries.

          I get that there are always a lot of haters whenever something new like this comes around and becomes popular.  You don’t have to like EVs now and you don’t have to worry about ever buying one if you don’t want to.  But, they’re here to stay and if I had money to gamble, I’d bet that eventually all the haters are going to be driving them too.
          Click to expand...


          I dont think a sober assessment of the economics qualifies as hating. In fact I love EVs as a type of vehicle or add on to any ICE, its the best case scenario. Its simply not economic right now, which is no big deal, one day as you say it will be. Theres nothing inherently wrong with subsidizing either, totally necessary at times. I think things like this, but even more so weighted to the research and development side of things should be more heavily subsidized. That would be great and propel us further much faster.

          Cars are terrible value wise, 95% of the time they sit in the garage or parking lot, its kind of crazy.

          Comment


          • #95







            You have to get all those free handouts, tax incentives, free parking and charging, manufacturer incentives, etc., to make the electric car even slightly compelling from a personal finance standpoint.  The only way that the electric car is a frugal choice is if you are at the very low end of the spectrum driving one of those cars that those handful of states force the manufacturers to sell, that they literally have to give away, like a fiat or a smart car.   And even then it’s still a very wasteful choice when you consider that you’re blowing tens of thousands of dollars of the taxpayer’s money and the manufacturer’s money every time you buy one.

            And when the time comes that these cars are ubiquitous and the tech improves to actually make these vehicles practical, do you think all the free handouts will still exist?  No way!  Kiss your tax incentives, free charging, free parking spots and free cars goodbye.

            As said above, for an apples to apples comparison, you’re paying at least $5k, $10k, $20k++ more for a comparable electric vehicle.  That delta buys an awful lot of gasoline before you even get to break-even.  And you never really truly break even since the electric cars depreciate so hard compared to petrol.  Even if you make it to some magical break even point, the battery pack itself is a wear item, and costs anywhere from $6k to $12k or more to buy a new battery pack, plus labor, so you start the break-even clock all over again.

            Fact remains is that gasoline was still cheap even when it was expensive.  Sure it was irritating paying $3.00 a gallon, but it wasn’t by any means a burden. I even visited cali and bought a few $4.50/gallon tanks of premium, big deal.  Even then it’s still the cheapest way to travel and will be hard for electricity to overcome.
            Click to expand…


            First of all, cars in general are a very poor choice of transportation if you want to be frugal with your finances.  If we’re going to talk about that, lets talk about wider use of trains, bicycles, and walking.  Cars are a ridiculously expensive depreciating asset that we choose to use because we like them, not because they are the best way to get around financially speaking.

            But, I’m not claiming that an electric car is a frugal choice right now compared to most cars.  However, I am claiming that they definitely will be in the very near future.  We’re still in the early adopter stage.  The industry needed a boost to get off the ground.  There’s nothing wrong with that especially when we’re talking about a technology that benefits everyone (electricity is cleaner than gasoline, even with our current grid).  Many new technologies require help from the government to get their feet off the ground.  The highways we all rely on today required massive state, local, and federal subsidies for their initial adoption to be successful.  When I-75 came through my town in the 1950s, the city had to bulldoze entire neighborhoods and even a baseball stadium to make way for it.  Don’t tell me that was all privately funded by the automobile industry.  Tax payers were on the hook for that too.

            And the tax incentives currently available today are scheduled to go away as the industry picks up.  As battery technology continues to improve and become cheaper, those tax credits won’t be needed anyway.  And battery wear is likely a non-issue.  I saw a study from BMW that showed only an 8% battery efficiency loss after 100k miles.  That’s nothing.  You don’t need a new battery if it’s only lost 8% of its power.  Besides, people don’t hold on to cars that long anyway.  This will be especially true when EVs routinely get 400+ miles range/charge which won’t be hard with solid state batteries.

            I get that there are always a lot of haters whenever something new like this comes around and becomes popular.  You don’t have to like EVs now and you don’t have to worry about ever buying one if you don’t want to.  But, they’re here to stay and if I had money to gamble, I’d bet that eventually all the haters are going to be driving them too.
            Click to expand...


            First, that first line is some hippie garbage.      You could say that everyone should live at work but for most people a bicycle or their feet aren't feasible since in the modern day most people live too far from work.  Taking the bus or train is hardly an efficient way to travel for someone whose time is at all valuable, particularly if you don't live on the bus line.  And even then, the bus or train or subway isn't free.  For anybody browsing this forum who doesn't live in manhattan or live upstairs from their practice or whatever, a car is by far the most cost efficient means of travel.

            Yeah the government built the interstate highway system but they didn't hand out free cars, or require that Henry Ford give them away for free.

            I personally look forward to never having to go to a gas station but unfortunately the tech just isn't there yet for me.

            Don't mean to be a hater, but there were just a number of posts talking about how cheap it is to run an EV.   

            Comment


            • #96
              Guys - just drive one. The acceleration is what it's all about. Short of a supercar, nothing compares. A P100D with launch mode is CRAZY!!!

              I bought the Tesla for the performance - the other stuff -17" touchscreen, autopilot, Falcon wing doors, no gas, saving the planet, that's all just bonus.

              I think that if you have a lot of money - Tesla makes a lot of sense. What they need to do is make a bigger version to compete with Yukon XL/Suburban/Expedition.

              Comment


              • #97
                Can anyone give specific examples of an EV NOT being economically advantageous over a comparably equipped and spec'd ICE car?

                I challenge that the FINANCIAL point of EV vs ICE ownership in this financial forum is feasible and advantageous now.

                @Craigy.  Yes, you have to pay insurance/fees/etc.  Still cheaper than any ICE car that you'd be leasing/purchasing.  Heck; we got the in addition to our existing ICE cars as it made economical sense NOT to drive our ICE vehicles simply on the savings on W+T and fuel.  It was compounded by that fact our Solar array was ahead 500kwh a year, but even without that power credit, it made financial savings.

                 

                Edit -  and to all those who think driving an EV is a scooter or golf cart equivalent, you haven't driven an EV lately or kept an open mind on the pure performance of an EV.   The engine gets 100% torque power at 0rpm.   It's a win-win-win situation compared to ICE vehicles (compare apples:apples):  fun for driving; economical; and more earth friendly than ICE.

                Comment


                • #98










                  You have to get all those free handouts, tax incentives, free parking and charging, manufacturer incentives, etc., to make the electric car even slightly compelling from a personal finance standpoint.  The only way that the electric car is a frugal choice is if you are at the very low end of the spectrum driving one of those cars that those handful of states force the manufacturers to sell, that they literally have to give away, like a fiat or a smart car.   And even then it’s still a very wasteful choice when you consider that you’re blowing tens of thousands of dollars of the taxpayer’s money and the manufacturer’s money every time you buy one.

                  And when the time comes that these cars are ubiquitous and the tech improves to actually make these vehicles practical, do you think all the free handouts will still exist?  No way!  Kiss your tax incentives, free charging, free parking spots and free cars goodbye.

                  As said above, for an apples to apples comparison, you’re paying at least $5k, $10k, $20k++ more for a comparable electric vehicle.  That delta buys an awful lot of gasoline before you even get to break-even.  And you never really truly break even since the electric cars depreciate so hard compared to petrol.  Even if you make it to some magical break even point, the battery pack itself is a wear item, and costs anywhere from $6k to $12k or more to buy a new battery pack, plus labor, so you start the break-even clock all over again.

                  Fact remains is that gasoline was still cheap even when it was expensive.  Sure it was irritating paying $3.00 a gallon, but it wasn’t by any means a burden. I even visited cali and bought a few $4.50/gallon tanks of premium, big deal.  Even then it’s still the cheapest way to travel and will be hard for electricity to overcome.
                  Click to expand…


                  First of all, cars in general are a very poor choice of transportation if you want to be frugal with your finances.  If we’re going to talk about that, lets talk about wider use of trains, bicycles, and walking.  Cars are a ridiculously expensive depreciating asset that we choose to use because we like them, not because they are the best way to get around financially speaking.

                  But, I’m not claiming that an electric car is a frugal choice right now compared to most cars.  However, I am claiming that they definitely will be in the very near future.  We’re still in the early adopter stage.  The industry needed a boost to get off the ground.  There’s nothing wrong with that especially when we’re talking about a technology that benefits everyone (electricity is cleaner than gasoline, even with our current grid).  Many new technologies require help from the government to get their feet off the ground.  The highways we all rely on today required massive state, local, and federal subsidies for their initial adoption to be successful.  When I-75 came through my town in the 1950s, the city had to bulldoze entire neighborhoods and even a baseball stadium to make way for it.  Don’t tell me that was all privately funded by the automobile industry.  Tax payers were on the hook for that too.

                  And the tax incentives currently available today are scheduled to go away as the industry picks up.  As battery technology continues to improve and become cheaper, those tax credits won’t be needed anyway.  And battery wear is likely a non-issue.  I saw a study from BMW that showed only an 8% battery efficiency loss after 100k miles.  That’s nothing.  You don’t need a new battery if it’s only lost 8% of its power.  Besides, people don’t hold on to cars that long anyway.  This will be especially true when EVs routinely get 400+ miles range/charge which won’t be hard with solid state batteries.

                  I get that there are always a lot of haters whenever something new like this comes around and becomes popular.  You don’t have to like EVs now and you don’t have to worry about ever buying one if you don’t want to.  But, they’re here to stay and if I had money to gamble, I’d bet that eventually all the haters are going to be driving them too.
                  Click to expand…


                  First, that first line is some hippie garbage.      You could say that everyone should live at work but for most people a bicycle or their feet aren’t feasible since in the modern day most people live too far from work.  Taking the bus or train is hardly an efficient way to travel for someone whose time is at all valuable, particularly if you don’t live on the bus line.  And even then, the bus or train or subway isn’t free.  For anybody browsing this forum who doesn’t live in manhattan or live upstairs from their practice or whatever, a car is by far the most cost efficient means of travel.

                  Yeah the government built the interstate highway system but they didn’t hand out free cars, or require that Henry Ford give them away for free.

                  I personally look forward to never having to go to a gas station but unfortunately the tech just isn’t there yet for me.

                  Don’t mean to be a hater, but there were just a number of posts talking about how cheap it is to run an EV.
                  Click to expand...


                  Its not hippie garbage at all. We, as a society, consciously choose how we build our communities.  Americans abandoned trains a long, long time ago in favor of cars.  We built our entire lives around the idea that the automobile would be our primary means of transit.  We have suburbs spread out far and wide connected by roads and highways that provide no other option than to drive.  Therefore we have virtually zero trains outside of a few major US cities, NYC being one of them.  Compare that to many European countries, for example, that kept their train systems and streetcars and built their communities around them instead.  That is why today its very convenient to live and work in places like Germany without ever needing a car.  Have you ever been to Berlin?  There are more bikes than cars on their streets.  Their roads have separate traffic signals just for the bikes (which are in large protected lanes).  And for those not riding bikes, they walk or ride the streetcars.  Doctors, lawyers, and all sorts of people who consider their time valuable commute that way.
                  Its not hippie wishful thinking or whatever you want to call it.  If we wanted to live in communities where cars weren't necessary, we could have it.  Those types of communities/cities exist all over the world.  The problem is that Americans are obsessed with cars.  And that's okay if you're willing to accept the fact that there are some major downsides to that lifestyle (high costs of ownership, giant traffic jams, more pollution, death and injury from accidents, costs to our health from being so sedentary, etc).  There are some downsides to public transit as well, I'm not going to pretend there's not.  But, personally I think the benefits of communities built around walkability and public transit are far better than those built around cars.  My point here is that its a choice and America chooses cars.  Love it or hate it, that's what we have.  It would take decades to build the kind of extensive rail networks that Europeans enjoy. I don't ever see that happening.  Although streetcars are making a big comeback in many cities, so that's kind of a step in that direction for those who want to live in the city.

                  At this point in my life I have given up on the idea that Americans will ever fully adopt the idea of walkable, sustainable cities and neighborhoods and instead just hope that if we're going to be stuck with cars, the least we can do is make sure they're as green as possible.  I see EVs as our best chance.  The greener our electrical grid becomes, the greener the electric cars will be.
                  I find it funny though that there's such a big movement to make cars automated and self-driving.  People are essentially wanting their cars to behave like trains.  Being able to sit back and read a book or watch a movie while your car drives you around is pretty much what you can already do on a train.  We're trying to get the benefits of a train system in a very round-about way.  But, there's something very un-American about public transit.  Convincing Americans that what they really want is a train and not a super sophisticated self driving car is pretty much a useless endeavor.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Depends on where one lives.  The sheer land that we have is part reason for sprawl.   Urban American like SF/NYC/DC -transit is an integral part of society.  My niece and nephew didn't drive until 18 and use Uber for the last mile.  That's compared to my midwest suburban childhood of turn 15 and at the DMV getting permit mentality.  I get what you're saying hightower.  I do love my car driving through the countryside.   Even the Germans understand that joy.

                    Question on this forum -- is it economically competitive to equivalent vehicles?

                    Comment






                    • Depends on where one lives.  The sheer land that we have is part reason for sprawl.   Urban American like SF/NYC/DC -transit is an integral part of society.  My niece and nephew didn’t drive until 18 and use Uber for the last mile.  That’s compared to my midwest suburban childhood of turn 15 and at the DMV getting permit mentality.  I get what you’re saying hightower.  I do love my car driving through the countryside.   Even the Germans understand that joy.

                      Question on this forum — is it economically competitive to equivalent vehicles?
                      Click to expand...


                      Was going to say the same, a lot has to do with size, and they have a few thousand years head start to basically be settled, we're just settling into place.

                      Related imageImage result for Size of US compared to Europe

                      Comment


                      • Automated driving cars are probably cheaper, require moving far less people from their homes via eminent domain and are a more efficient form of travel than a train all things considered (and one of those things is you'd have to imagine and pretend this exists!).

                        Comment


                        • I bought inventory MX 90D with $21,000 discount. Because I bought before 1/15/17 I have unlimited supercharging for the life of the car. Car is eligible to HOV lane sticker, $7500 tax credit and section 179 deduction if you are eligible. Easily the best car I've ever driven. Agree with others, go try it.

                          Comment


                          • That's the thing, the cost to install rail, subway, etc. in any city or town would be in the billions, tens of billions, maybe even hundreds of billions of dollars, per city.  You could give everyone his or her own car for that kind of money, which actually takes someone from point A to point B.

                            Even in established cities with good transit, none are perfect systems.  First of all, you have to get yourself to transit, which often includes driving and parking in and of itself, then you're subjecting yourself to the schedule of whatever transit system you're on, likely going through several transfers, maybe even walking between stops and stations, and finally you're often not dropped very close to your destination, which has you walking through heat, rain, snow, ice.  All the while you're at the mercy of your fellow passengers and citizens not to be mugged, stabbed, pickpocketed, coughed on, asked for money, yelled at, you name it.

                            And then the whole live-where-you-work concept sounds great but it just isn't realistic.  Physically speaking you can only fit so many people in an urban environment, and high density creates its own litany of problems.  Outside of big cities, for decades the TND concept has been tried over and over again and it has never caught on.

                            Comment


                            • I believe for urban, it's more the question of car ownership than what's best for the 'final mile'.  Uber really has made a case for that and coupled with the shared car like zipcar for the occasional out of town excursion--little reason to own a car in metro areas like Boston/NY/San Fran.

                              For the likes of sprawled massive LA or Detroit, the car reigns supreme and will always be that way.

                              This all gets away from this topic though -- Tesla.

                              Get into an EV and try it out.  The performance is what's so enticing about it.  It makes financial sense in most cases across all segments.

                              I'm eager to see if the Model 3 has the specs to match up with my expectations and replace our fun car:  Infiniti G37.

                               

                              Comment




















                              • Even with the current “super cheap” gas prices, electric cars are still far cheaper to fuel than gasoline.  My i3 gets around 4.2 – 4.5 mi/kw (I like driving it very conservatively) and when I compare that to my wife’s Honda fit that gets 36 mpg its still about 50-60% cheaper to fuel (assuming $2.39 per gallon, which is the cheapest I’ve been seeing around here lately, usually its more than that though).  Our electricity costs us about 12.9 cents/kw after taxes and distribution fees, so of course if we lived in Cali or Hawaii where electric is a lot more expensive, that savings would be less.  And with a less fuel efficient ICE the difference would be a lot bigger.  The Fit is insanely good with gas mileage, so I’m demonstrating this to show that even with super cheap gas and a super fuel efficient car, the electric car still wins.  Plus, even here in the Midwest, its pretty easy to find free charging stations.  I am at work right now and my car is charging in the parking lot for free.  I think that’s pretty cool.  All the years I drove an ICE I never got a free tank of gas.
                                Click to expand…


                                And did you ever hit the brakes in your ICE car and gasoline went back into your gas tank? ?

                                (regenerative braking FTW)

                                Jokes aside, my electricity costs to fill up my car are much less than even my Toyota Prius.  “Super cheap” gas is still more expensive than electricity to fill the car (yes I realize a Tesla is expensive overall, but just speaking to that point specifically, especially when compared to similarly priced ICE cars).

                                 
                                Click to expand…


                                It depends where you live. However, its a dumb argument to compare costs, as that is certainly not why one buys a tesla. If you wanted to be frugal you’d get a used prius or a volt or something. A tesla is not an economic choice. The cost may be less to fill up than your prius, but after you back out the premium paid for the vehicle, it isnt any more. Again, doesnt matter as a Tesla is a status symbol.

                                Did they ever make the stereo system better, the one I had was terrible. Unacceptable, as are several of the accommodations for a 100k plus car. My Lexus is far better accommodated.
                                Click to expand…


                                I stand corrected, your Lexus is super cheap ?
                                Click to expand…


                                Dont recall saying it was, and do recall mentioning costs is dumb when talking about a car like Tesla. It is less than half and far better appointed. We’re not in the low range of vehicles, its as @startrekdoc says, this is a different cohort of cars to consider. People dont go out and compare corollas to teslas.

                                If you’re in the tesla range, you’re going to be looking at lexus, mercedes, bmw, maserati, etc…Luxury, status type vehicles.
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                                Zaphod wrote:











                                Even with the current “super cheap” gas prices, electric cars are still far cheaper to fuel than gasoline.  My i3 gets around 4.2 – 4.5 mi/kw (I like driving it very conservatively) and when I compare that to my wife’s Honda fit that gets 36 mpg its still about 50-60% cheaper to fuel (assuming $2.39 per gallon, which is the cheapest I’ve been seeing around here lately, usually its more than that though).  Our electricity costs us about 12.9 cents/kw after taxes and distribution fees, so of course if we lived in Cali or Hawaii where electric is a lot more expensive, that savings would be less.  And with a less fuel efficient ICE the difference would be a lot bigger.  The Fit is insanely good with gas mileage, so I’m demonstrating this to show that even with super cheap gas and a super fuel efficient car, the electric car still wins.  Plus, even here in the Midwest, its pretty easy to find free charging stations.  I am at work right now and my car is charging in the parking lot for free.  I think that’s pretty cool.  All the years I drove an ICE I never got a free tank of gas.
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                                And did you ever hit the brakes in your ICE car and gasoline went back into your gas tank? ?

                                (regenerative braking FTW)

                                Jokes aside, my electricity costs to fill up my car are much less than even my Toyota Prius.  “Super cheap” gas is still more expensive than electricity to fill the car (yes I realize a Tesla is expensive overall, but just speaking to that point specifically, especially when compared to similarly priced ICE cars).

                                 
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                                It depends where you live. However, its a dumb argument to compare costs, as that is certainly not why one buys a tesla. If you wanted to be frugal you’d get a used prius or a volt or something. A tesla is not an economic choice. The cost may be less to fill up than your prius, but after you back out the premium paid for the vehicle, it isnt any more. Again, doesnt matter as a Tesla is a status symbol.

                                Did they ever make the stereo system better, the one I had was terrible. Unacceptable, as are several of the accommodations for a 100k plus car. My Lexus is far better accommodated.
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                                I am not sure how I am supposed to take the following statement from you:   "its a dumb argument."  I have to disagree with this, since I was speaking to comparing the Tesla with a COMPARABLY priced ICE vehicle.  I am in the customer segment that is cross shopping a Model S with a Porsche Panamera, Audi S7 and BMW M6 Gran Coupe type of vehicles.  When compared to those vehicles, the running costs are much cheaper with the Tesla.  There are no oil changes, spark plugs, fuel pumps, turbos, timing belts, filters, etc., and it is much cheaper to run on electricity than gas fill-ups in those gas guzzlers.  So no, it is not a "dumb" argument to compare costs, when you compare to a comparably priced ICE vehicle. As stated above, there is a reason why Tesla is killing it in the large luxury/premium market.

                                And yes, overall, the decision is not an economical one.  I did choose it for non-economical reasons as well:  My Model S is fun, supercar quick, quiet, smooth, safe (5 stars in every category, not just 5 star average), technologically advanced and practical (2 trunks, can seat up to 7 with rear jump seats).  The fact the it is green and cheaper to run than comparably priced ICE vehicles is a big bonus.

                                 

                                 

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