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  • #46
    You are in minority to think that then. People get poopoohed on if they deviate from index investing no matter how rich on boglehead and here. Also he putajorith in these startups - where is the diversification in that (where is the forum police ??)

    And I do realize what you are saying but you think he is ourely doing this for money. Just like you I have no proof (you can't prove that money is motivating him etc) of this: for me he is doing to change science, the way we travel on land and in space. Forwarding our thinking, and a unique non internet (right now) entrepreneur and tackling tough industries. If he wanted profit he'd become a marketer after homerunning PayPal. It's not money. He didn't see opportunity to become incredibly wealthy he did it because he thought he can't convert Stanford lab projects to the masses. This is not Evan speigel snap chatting here.

    You are dogging him for equity manipulation, I'm giving him credit for his genius to implement solid plans and catapult humanity.

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    • #47
      Putting majority of his money*

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      • #48




        You are in minority to think that then. People get poopoohed on if they deviate from index investing no matter how rich on boglehead and here. Also he putajorith in these startups – where is the diversification in that (where is the forum police ??)

        And I do realize what you are saying but you think he is ourely doing this for money. Just like you I have no proof (you can’t prove that money is motivating him etc) of this: for me he is doing to change science, the way we travel on land and in space. Forwarding our thinking, and a unique non internet (right now) entrepreneur and tackling tough industries. If he wanted profit he’d become a marketer after homerunning PayPal. It’s not money. He didn’t see opportunity to become incredibly wealthy he did it because he thought he can’t convert Stanford lab projects to the masses. This is not Evan speigel snap chatting here.

        You are dogging him for equity manipulation, I’m giving him credit for his genius to implement solid plans and catapult humanity.
        Click to expand...


        Why cant it be both for both things?

         

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        • #49
          +1, he saw an opportunity to arbitrage a plethora of government subsidies, and took it.

          Musk is definitely a risk taker, but almost everything he's gone after with Tesla has been wrapped up in free government money falling from the sky, artificial demand created by legislation through mandate or tax incentives, etc.

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          • #50




            +1, he saw an opportunity to arbitrage a plethora of government subsidies, and took it.

            Musk is definitely a risk taker, but almost everything he’s gone after with Tesla has been wrapped up in free government money falling from the sky, artificial demand created by legislation through mandate or tax incentives, etc.
            Click to expand...


            Exactly. If you just look from the outside it looks incredibly risky and brave. If you look into the structure you'd be a fool not to be doing it. He is definitely comfortable with an insane amount of risk, for example the way he has everything somewhat circularly leveraged and counting as the collateral at times.

             

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            • #51
              Except I don't see it that way. The way you guys are describing it sounds like a hedge fund dude seeing opportunity to take over company with government discount

              You guys are completely discounting his actual scientific acumen and ability to do like 3848832 things, visualize it and actually do it, not day dream about it. Incredible personal risk, which I highly doubt is just for money. In fact I can bet good sum he is trying to leave legacy at this point not make a ton of money. He already achieved that.

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              • #52




                Except I don’t see it that way. The way you guys are describing it sounds like a hedge fund dude seeing opportunity to take over company with government discount

                You guys are completely discounting his actual scientific acumen and ability to do like 3848832 things, visualize it and actually do it, not day dream about it. Incredible personal risk, which I highly doubt is just for money. In fact I can bet good sum he is trying to leave legacy at this point not make a ton of money. He already achieved that.
                Click to expand...


                That's a little naive IMO.  Tesla is first and foremost a business. He definitely runs it like a business.  It's by no means a study in altruism.

                No doubt he is very smart.  Most highly successful businessmen are very smart.  And sure most billionaires like to leave a legacy.  But they're also billionaires because they're good at what they do.  Most billionaires don't hit $1B or $2B and hang it up; they keep going.

                Don't get me wrong, he's not some evil robber baron, but people worship him like he's some sort of god or superhero character, which is ridiculous.  He's just a guy like anyone else.  Tesla is a great company, but without the overwhelming amount of government assistance it receives, it simply wouldn't be viable.

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                • #53
                  Craigy,

                  Not arguing whether it is viable or not. Clearly without government subsidies the company is done. But that's not my argument. I care about his scientific achievements. These billionaires you speak of: are they thinking about going to Mars? Are they inventing or trying to a whole NEW infrastructure of gas-less travel? That is where Musk has my respect.

                  Yes Warren buffet is a billionaire, buying what insurance companies? Big whoop. Yes capitalism and all but that didn't advance my thinking of new technology. Oil barrons, fashion barrons, big deal. Thanks for rising to the top. Didn't add zilch to scientific inquiry. Richard branson? Good for you on starting X number of companies...now quick tell me how electric cars work? No don't know? well thanks for just making more money for the world.

                  There is business smart and then there is - didn't think of this before / new tech - smart. He's not just a guy or some other rich billionaire. Here is a challange: name another billionaire who has affected/created different companies AND advanced science both. Let me know if you have names.

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                  • #54




                    Craigy,

                    Not arguing whether it is viable or not. Clearly without government subsidies the company is done. But that’s not my argument. I care about his scientific achievements. These billionaires you speak of: are they thinking about going to Mars? Are they inventing or trying to a whole NEW infrastructure of gas-less travel? That is where Musk has my respect.

                    Yes Warren buffet is a billionaire, buying what insurance companies? Big whoop. Yes capitalism and all but that didn’t advance my thinking of new technology. Oil barrons, fashion barrons, big deal. Thanks for rising to the top. Didn’t add zilch to scientific inquiry. Richard branson? Good for you on starting X number of companies…now quick tell me how electric cars work? No don’t know? well thanks for just making more money for the world.

                    There is business smart and then there is – didn’t think of this before / new tech – smart. He’s not just a guy or some other rich billionaire. Here is a challange: name another billionaire who has affected/created different companies AND advanced science both. Let me know if you have names.
                    Click to expand...


                    Buffet/Gates are part of a growing group of billionaires that are giving a huge majority of their money away to good causes. While this isnt splashy news, this will positively impact more people long term than anything Musk does.

                    No offense, but electrification was coming whether Musk got involved or not, it will definitely still be delayed and no where near as advanced in time line as today, but you cant stop the technological or economic obviousness of the issue. Lets remember that Tesla existed before he knew of it anyway, people were already tackling it. Same thing with Solar City, who wasnt in that field grabbing government subsidies until they puked? They went bankrupt but were saved by Tesla, much to the detriment of their shareholders, making the nearly impossible even more so now. SpaceX and Mars? Who really cares about that? There wont be some amazing breakthrough from that endeavor that will impact a majority of people that we couldnt do now on earth for magnitudes cheaper. Electrification is where the advance in timeline was made, but thats it.

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                    • #55




                      Craigy,

                      Not arguing whether it is viable or not. Clearly without government subsidies the company is done. But that’s not my argument. I care about his scientific achievements. These billionaires you speak of: are they thinking about going to Mars? Are they inventing or trying to a whole NEW infrastructure of gas-less travel? That is where Musk has my respect.

                      Yes Warren buffet is a billionaire, buying what insurance companies? Big whoop. Yes capitalism and all but that didn’t advance my thinking of new technology. Oil barrons, fashion barrons, big deal. Thanks for rising to the top. Didn’t add zilch to scientific inquiry. Richard branson? Good for you on starting X number of companies…now quick tell me how electric cars work? No don’t know? well thanks for just making more money for the world.

                      There is business smart and then there is – didn’t think of this before / new tech – smart. He’s not just a guy or some other rich billionaire. Here is a challange: name another billionaire who has affected/created different companies AND advanced science both. Let me know if you have names.
                      Click to expand...


                      Again, his "scientific achievements" are overblown in my opinion.  And also the concept that no other billionaires or entrepreneurs have added anything to science is very naive.

                      I appreciate that he publicly talks about and pushes for adoption of various new technologies like hyperloop, etc., but space exploration is not a new concept, electric cars are not a new concept, and on and on.  Electric cars have literally been around since the 1800s.  The premise is by no means a new thing.

                      Private enterprise has been the leader of scientific advancement for millennia.  Invention doesn't arise out of nowhere, it comes about due to necessity. Look at Dow Chemical, whose scientists have invented countless products which improve and protect human life.  Companies like Monsanto develop products which help feed the world.  Clinical research and pharmaceutical companies by their very nature are leading the way in medical research, and there's hundreds of those to name. Bill Gates has personally had a hand in the computerization of the world and the internet revolution, and is incredibly philanthropic with the Gates Foundation.  Even Richard Branson whom you mention by name has been a scientific pioneer with projects like Virgin Galactic.

                      You are right that Elon is a positive character, a great inspiration for another generation of scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs, but he's by no means the only businessman or even one of a few who cares about society and science.

                       

                       

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                      • #56
                        Craigy -

                        I love Gates foundation. Great work, for that I have great respect for Gates. Space exploration isn't new, but renewable rocket idea IS. Virgin Galactic...following on the heals of Space X. Ok. Great example. heh. The rest of your examples aren't headed by a dynamic leader who made the company what it is coming from some other facet of entrepreneurship, that is what makes Musk a visionary. He was a techie who then did solar, then did rocket and an electric car.

                        Believe what you want to believe, but other entrepreneurs you named are businessmen, but Musk actually understands a thing or two about physics, math, engineering and on top of that he is a CEO. That combination is NOT found anywhere or in your examples. Branson? No. Oh the rest you didn't give me exact names. I asked for an individual NOT companies. I can name my hospital and say we are advancing medicine (found a new gene like yesterday FTR)

                        Oh and Zaphod,

                        PC was coming either way: with or without Gates. Phone was gonna be a personalized miniature computer: with or without Jobs. Easy to make that argument. He did commercialize it successfully. If it was THAT easy where were all the other car manufacturers? just sitting on the sideline waiting for Musk? ok. Got it. Oh and while Buffet and Gates are giving their money away, how do you know Musk wouldn't? Just giving money away is great, but isn't ACTIVELY advancing science. I donated yesterday in Walmart line, felt great, but I didn't invent teleportation. Your argument of Tesla before Musk- it was a lab project. I drove that roadster in Palo Alto in 2005. Give me a break, no where near what Model S is now. That was his vision. Oh an I care about Mars. Certainly we all did when man landed on the moon, didn't we? or should we not have put in the effort? Suppose stop talking about it and let any future engineers just read about classical newton and drown in obscurity. Because going to mars will UNLOCK more advancements in electrical engineering, space engineering, civil engineering, etc etc.

                        Anyways, it is clear neither side is going to change anybody's opinion.

                        As a final word: he is no hero. Is not perfect. But in my book he is a genius who saw things I certainly didn't and in like 3-4 disparate industries which to me is incredible which I just haven't seen from Jobs, Gates, Branson...whoever.

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                        • #57
                          I'm a total fan of Musk.  Even though I rarely buy individual stocks over mutual funds, I bought Tesla stock back in the day and reserved a Model S for myself.  They had my $5k deposit and I waited 3 years for them to build me one.  For decades, I drove inexpensive Honda's and Toyotas.  And now that I have more money than I could ever need, I have 2 Teslas, one for me and one for my spouse. They are a joy to drive and the service (about once a year) is a rarefied experience where they come to me at my convenience to pick up the car and leave me a car to use.  Just one man's experience and one man's opinion, but Tesla rocks! At my hospital, the doctor's lot is full of Teslas, a couple in each color and the valet knows whose is whose.

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                          • #58
                            I just read this thread to see why it was so lengthy--I had originally ignored because I have zero interest in TSLA or an actual Tesla.  FWIW, we have several in the doctor's lot, it seems to be the car company of choice of the crowd my brother rolls with (C-suite/VP types of tech companies in CA) and increasingly the yuppies in my affluent neighborhood.  Yeah, it's a zippy car, but I really don't see it as this environmental godsend.  Even though I live in a sunny, windy, geothermally active state 73% of our electricity comes from burning natural gas according to EIA.gov.

                            Also, I wanted to point out that, in fact, some people who post on this site do invest in start-ups and alternative investing.  Many also have big ideas.  They're just not the kind of stories that are likely to consume 4+ pages on WCI.

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                            • #59
                              Tesla is eye-candy performance car with eco friendly leanings.   It replaces BMW/MB/Lexus sports sedan buying gas guzzling vehicles so the direct impact is significant and it shines a bright light on the benefits of EV technology over ICE vehicles.

                              Yes, a lot more eco friendly cars out there with higher efficiency ratings (like our Chevy Spark EV), but Tesla is trying to do something very different as a disruptive company compared to the incremental steps of GM with it's new Bolt EV offering.

                              Regardless, ANY EV is heads above an ICE vehicle as far as environmental impact.   Couple this with rooftop Solar (and hopefully Vehicle-To-Home microgrid rollout in the near future--doubtful from Tesla since it'll kill his Powerwall project), and impact would be quite significant.

                              The first step is getting these EVs on the road and that's what Tesla has successfully accomplished in dramatic fashion as a disruptive technology company.  For that, I LOVE people like Elon Musk/steve jobs/Jeff Bezos that force us to do life differently.

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                              • #60
                                Thanks startrek - your username checksum out


                                For a sec I thought I was the lone warrior on this thread. Anyways, good post.

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