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A Cautionary Tale and Momentous Labor Day

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Anne View Post
    I never understood the animosity against in-laws thing. They raised your spouse, so if you like your spouse, shouldn’t you be happy with the source? I think when people really complain about their in-laws, they are really complaining about their spouse in a socially acceptable, by proxy fashion.
    This logic seems incredibly flawed

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    • #17
      Depends how far the apple falls from the tree.

      Comment


      • #18
        Note per OP post later, the 1 cent shy was not her idea. I give you props OP. You married husband not your in-laws so don’t follow logic above. Having said that, I’m glad it all worked out. And as some have hinted here, I’d much rather be indebted to a bank than family. Great job and look he’s interested in investing now! Woohoo! Now if it could get my spouse to look at our spreadsheets....

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Tyche View Post
          LOL some WCI smackdowns over here. The payment hit their LLC account this morning and a "wow, congratulations on being so financially responsible!!" text so no hard feelings. Guess math-minded mom didn't notice the penny. He'll make a joke out of it to needle her. That too, was not my idea.
          Sometimes kids don’t realize the emotional and financial investment parents make for their kids.
          Their hopes and dreams are for a successful life and career launch. Consider, their goal was to take the pressure of student loans on their back. They put a structure that allowed “independence” with zero risk.
          The tone was strings and losing $100k of Investment income. Math minded mom may have actually been keeping track of “her son’s business”, he seems incapable of doing.
          Deflection of not my idea doesn’t fly.
          Neither of you seem to have thought or have an appreciation. It’s not a smack down, it’s simply a lack of consideration of the parents efforts without even a thank you. Lack of manners etiquette or whatever. The only gratitude is “needling”.
          It’s not like her son is doing his parents a favor. There is an attitude problem there. Maybe it’s sarcastic, I sure hope the parents get the insult, or was it a joke? Seems to be contagious. No insult intended. Good luck with stomping your foot for the house now. Respect for elders is a lost art.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Kamban View Post

            I look at this like some here in WCI call having skin in the game. Many here could support fully the undergrad and grad education of their kids but would not do it and make the kid have a skin in the game by taking out loans.

            I suspect that his parents knew their son was a fiscally irresponsible son and hence insisted on it being a strict loan. If you were not financially savvy, you and he would have squandered the money and without an agreement, he would not have learned the lesson. Even with you keeping an eye he still missed payments and imagine what would have happened if you had not been there.

            I think the MIL deserves more credit than what you give her and your hubby less. Hope he has learned his financial lesson.
            You're assuming there was more method to their behavior than his. They used that exact term years later but their reasoning was unfounded and arbitrary. What I was trying to show was when he decided to borrow from his parents my husband still believed they had his best interests in mind. He also trusted their judgment more than his own. That is the dynamic that has changed over the years, and thank goodness! The frustration came from early attempts to leverage his behavior, which thankfully has subsided. It's a lesson we must all learn at one point or another: the only person who will look out for your best interest is yourself (and hopefully your spouse). They were nearing retirement and happy for the very low risk 3.5% ROI. Yes, it was generous and still a risk for them but ultimately they were looking out for their own best interest. Absolutely within their right.

            To be clear, in no way do I think their relationship would have been severely damaged if he had continued to go about repayment in his own methods. If it wasn't obvious, he is the reason we made that final payment so much earlier than planned. That, along with their reaction of "Congratulations! That takes so much discipline!!" shows that whatever dysfunction surfaced during these years is not predominant in the relationship as a whole. Clearly the post was written from my perspective, which is someone married into a family. I still do not understand the finer points of how they relate and interact. My role helped in that it cut out the glaringly obvious personal aspect of the situation.

            Tim Calling us ingrates is a bit far as he would be only 1 year away from PSLF and honestly there would have been more flexibility staying with the government. As far as the honeymoon money, when your broke parents fork out cash for a wedding and then your wealthy soon-to-be in laws provide money for a honeymoon, that's a strings attached gift. If they were trying to find a creative way to hold him accountable I'm sure there were better options.

            I suspect the ironic tone of the post is what rubs our older demographic. This was a cautionary tale after all, one in which everyone wins.

            Comment


            • #21
              [QUOTE=Tyche;n227269
              It's a lesson we must all learn at one point or another: the only person who will look out for your best interest is yourself (and hopefully your spouse). [/QUOTE]

              I respectful disagree. I haven’t read all the posts in this thread , but would like to say that the only people in this world who take care of someone without any interest are parents .

              my parents did everything for us. I am doing whatever I can for my kids .

              Comment


              • #22
                I’m sure our son and his girlfriend have some hard feelings about how we handle our money with respect to them. We are wealthy yet we permit them the opportunity to struggle financially.

                Our goal is to be generous, but that generosity goal is superseded by our strong desire to teach healthy financial habits. First, we want to be good parents and good teachers. Second, we want to be generous.

                For fiscally responsible offspring, those two goals align quite nicely. For fiscally irresponsible offspring, not quite so much.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tyche View Post

                  It's a lesson we must all learn at one point or another: the only person who will look out for your best interest is yourself (and hopefully your spouse). They were nearing retirement and happy for the very low risk 3.5% ROI. Yes, it was generous and still a risk for them but ultimately they were looking out for their own best interest. Absolutely within their right..
                  As some here might be aware, I am an Asian Indian, where the culture is a bit different. My parents always looked out for me, even when they restricted their material wealth in life. Education of me and my brothers were paramount to them. So I found it an alien concept of a parent loaning their kid money with an interest rate attached to it. Most Indian parents would either have not given any ( mostly because they don't have any) or given it outright with no expectation of return. Their only hope is that we do the same for their grandchildren and I have mentally promised their souls that I would do that, come what may. Luckily their efforts in educating me has paid off and I can pay it forward.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tyche View Post

                    You're assuming there was more method to their behavior than his. They used that exact term years later but their reasoning was unfounded and arbitrary. What I was trying to show was when he decided to borrow from his parents my husband still believed they had his best interests in mind. He also trusted their judgment more than his own. That is the dynamic that has changed over the years, and thank goodness! The frustration came from early attempts to leverage his behavior, which thankfully has subsided. It's a lesson we must all learn at one point or another: the only person who will look out for your best interest is yourself (and hopefully your spouse). They were nearing retirement and happy for the very low risk 3.5% ROI. Yes, it was generous and still a risk for them but ultimately they were looking out for their own best interest. Absolutely within their right.

                    To be clear, in no way do I think their relationship would have been severely damaged if he had continued to go about repayment in his own methods. If it wasn't obvious, he is the reason we made that final payment so much earlier than planned. That, along with their reaction of "Congratulations! That takes so much discipline!!" shows that whatever dysfunction surfaced during these years is not predominant in the relationship as a whole. Clearly the post was written from my perspective, which is someone married into a family. I still do not understand the finer points of how they relate and interact. My role helped in that it cut out the glaringly obvious personal aspect of the situation.

                    Tim Calling us ingrates is a bit far as he would be only 1 year away from PSLF and honestly there would have been more flexibility staying with the government. As far as the honeymoon money, when your broke parents fork out cash for a wedding and then your wealthy soon-to-be in laws provide money for a honeymoon, that's a strings attached gift. If they were trying to find a creative way to hold him accountable I'm sure there were better options.

                    I suspect the ironic tone of the post is what rubs our older demographic. This was a cautionary tale after all, one in which everyone wins.
                    Pretty easy:
                    •Why didn’t you refi the student loan after the honeymoon?
                    • Was there any prepayment clause in the parent loan agreement?
                    • Caution, over 18 he is completely responsible for his decisions. This certainly wasn’t a predatory lending thing.
                    • Doesn’t matter about reasoning. Got news for you, you haven’t stated it. You felt the parents were controlling. I did not call you “ingrates” and neither did his parents! If you didn’t want to “feel indebted to the parents”, don’t take a loan.

                    What does a parent do? Step in if asked.
                    • Got a forwarded email today. Past due premium.
                    Tasks:
                    employment contract
                    1040’s 2018, 2019 with 2 w-2’s
                    paycheck stub
                    paid annual DI premium
                    Scheduled meeting for 2nd policy for Monday.
                    Not my bank account or policy either.

                    Hint: Parent’s can be useful if used properly. My reward? Last Monday she stopped by and took mom & dad for lunch at our regular Mexican food place. Dad got “dropped” while she really made the trip to take Mom with her to get an outfit for a TV interview on Tuesday.
                    Mom’s the fashion/decorator consultant, Dad’s the FP/business/tax consultant. She’s the physician.

                    It’s cool to get a text “Got it. Thanks” and see your kid with a 7 year old patient explaining an ACL on TV.

                    We got rules. God help potential SIL , I have a long list of crap he needs to pickup! The point, a new person will basically change things. I can just imagine.
                    So your Dad basically tells you what to do for taxes, all the retirement/investments, and insurance? You just earn and spend. If I were him, the first thought is where do I fit in and why is he controlling you? Wrong conclusion. I want to get out of it and just do lunch and birthday dinners.
                    He will have to ask me. And send a thank you text.
                    There is no need for resentment.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Anne View Post
                      I never understood the animosity against in-laws thing. They raised your spouse, so if you like your spouse, shouldn’t you be happy with the source? I think when people really complain about their in-laws, they are really complaining about their spouse in a socially acceptable, by proxy fashion.

                      Also, this illustrates the real reason why you shouldn’t loan money to family—when people get behind on payments with a bank, they expect their credit score to be trashed and for the bank to come after them for the money. They don’t like it, but they expect it. When they get behind payments with family, they somehow expect family to just shrug and say that’s cool, whatevs, and when family reacts any different way (even by gifting the payments so they can catch up again) they get upset. And then they mentally account how much they are going to get back in the form of inheritance...i.e. they daydream about the lending family members demise (!?!)
                      Clearly you haven't met my parents;-) my husband is welcome to call out their selfish and insane behavior all day long. I don't worry about this being a secret jab at my own character. Not all good people come from good parents.

                      I took OP to be making a lighthearted post about a big milestone and accomplishment. Not a smackdown of her in laws or her husband. It sounds like they all have functional relationships with the expected friction that arises at times between family members, especially when finances are involved. Congratulations OP!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by wideopenspaces View Post

                        Clearly you haven't met my parents;-) my husband is welcome to call out their selfish and insane behavior all day long. I don't worry about this being a secret jab at my own character. Not all good people come from good parents.

                        I took OP to be making a lighthearted post about a big milestone and accomplishment. Not a smackdown of her in laws or her husband. It sounds like they all have functional relationships with the expected friction that arises at times between family members, especially when finances are involved. Congratulations OP!
                        It does make me think twice about fully supporting and/or lending a hand/loan/whatever and felt strings attached sensation or missing a needling just because from my daughter's significant other in the future. When I read OPs post, and response, tried very hard not to dig into the millennial typecasting. Perhaps it really is a generational thing. Don't know.

                        But cut from the same cloth as Kamban and probably wouldn't sleep if we didn't support the kids blindly or risk coming back as a slug or find Peter shaking is head flipping blank family pages.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wideopenspaces View Post

                          Clearly you haven't met my parents;-) my husband is welcome to call out their selfish and insane behavior all day long. I don't worry about this being a secret jab at my own character. Not all good people come from good parents.

                          I took OP to be making a lighthearted post about a big milestone and accomplishment. Not a smackdown of her in laws or her husband. It sounds like they all have functional relationships with the expected friction that arises at times between family members, especially when finances are involved. Congratulations OP!
                          I wasn’t saying that all good people come from good parents—but if your parents hadn’t raised you, good or bad, you wouldn’t exist. There has to be a modicum of gratitude there. Making fun of in-laws has become a cliche. I think the OP is looking for bad intentions in the in-laws where it sounds like their son really was not good with finances, they realized that, and tried to steer him a bit better. They might not have done it perfectly, but they tried. Many better investments they could have done with their money during that time period.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by wideopenspaces View Post

                            Clearly you haven't met my parents;-) my husband is welcome to call out their selfish and insane behavior all day long. I don't worry about this being a secret jab at my own character. Not all good people come from good parents.

                            I took OP to be making a lighthearted post about a big milestone and accomplishment. Not a smackdown of her in laws or her husband. It sounds like they all have functional relationships with the expected friction that arises at times between family members, especially when finances are involved. Congratulations OP!
                            You deal with mind complexities for a living, I don’t. You win, not a rebuttal. Not to mention the FIL could be a saint and MIL the devil. Some people just don’t mesh and some people shouldn’t mesh just because.
                            • Given: If it was light hearted or MIL is a devil, so be it. Regardless, paying off the debt is huge.
                            • The framing of the issue seemed to make mountains out of molehills. If that’s the biggest problem with family relationships, OP hit the jackpot.
                            •StartrekDoc brought up a significant point, bringing a future significant other into the picture changes the dynamics for your kid. It’s not good or bad, it’s new set of facts and circumstances.
                            •No reason for blame or defensive attitudes. Make the best of the future family relationship.
                            •Personally, I am disappointed that my Dad was never the “grandpa” for my kids that I hoped for. A complete stranger to them. Makes me sad for the opportunities lost. It is what it is. Not a thing I could do as a parent. I don’t want to be that guy, loan or no loan.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Adult family members being involved with each other financially is, at best, tricky.

                              It is never a good thing.

                              Change my mind.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Long ago, we bought our first house. The University I worked for offered below market rate mortgages from their endowment to the faculty. Although we had a 20% down payment, the down payment and the maximum offered University mortgage came up 35k short to close.

                                There were 2 choices. We could forgo the highly attractive University mortgage and spend way more in interest, or we could find another source for the extra 35k. The bank of mom and dad came through with a side deal for the 35k, in the form of a second mortgage. I wrote up loan papers and signed the note due. The second mortgage interest rate was at the prevailing market rate, 10%. I paid monthly, on time, and after a couple of years I was able to pay off the remaining principal in full.

                                My parents’ financial advisor was mortified that we would do this and advised strongly against it, but we did it anyway. It worked out just fine and had no negative consequences for family relationships.

                                It worked out well because both parties were extremely responsible financially, the terms of the loan were spelled out in black and white, in writing, in advance, and everyone did exactly what they said they would do with no issues. We did not expect a gift, we did not expect to pay less than market rates, and we did not expect the loan to be forgiven. Clear expectations and responsible behavior led to all of it working out quite well.

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