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Accepted Class of 2024 - Maxing out the PSLF system

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  • #31
    I've never looked into it, but the podcasts that I have listened to about pslf seemed to imply the the program was in writing in your loan origination forms and shouldn't be able to be amended for current borrowers. My understanding is that all of the changes are being proposed for new borrowers. I don't think that its a bad idea for most physicians to examine pslf, with the length of some residencies and hospital based specialties, some specialities seem almost built for pslf. I personally wouldn't borrow anymore then I absolutely had to even if I were going for pslf on the chance that it was not going to work out though. I think the only way that I would consider borrowing more is if I could put the extra amount into a high interest savings account with the interest higher then whatever the student loan company was charging me. If you had any earned income, you probably could do something like this with a Roth. I suspect that people who borrow extra with the goal of gaming the system will just end up spending the extra amount though, and end up in even worse shape if something doesn't work out and they actually have to pay the program back. That's the problem with loan forgiveness promises, they really do encourage increased borrowing and spending. I suspect that if you could do a study on Sanders/Warren supporters in college, you could demonstrate a statistically higher borrowing rate even after adjusting for which college they were going to/parents income/etc.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Peds View Post

      "class of" is the year you graduate.
      Thanks.

      I relapsed to my past since both in India and England the "Class of" means the year you joined. Have to remind myself it is different here.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by MTMT View Post


        Could someone elaborate a little more on the questions I asked above? Again, I appreciate all the wise words!
        Curious why you won't answer what your actual tuition is.

        I'm with pp who questioned if this is a troll post or a journalist looking for a story. Especially since they repeatedly used the word attendant to describe their post residency position. If OP really is a med student, well, good luck. I hope you don't fail out with no way to repay all that unnecessary debt.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by MTMT View Post


          Could someone elaborate a little more on the questions I asked above? Again, I appreciate all the wise words!
          These are good questions for your favorite Presidential candidate or Congressperson.
          Take a gander at any of the discussions on tax policy on this forum. Our crystal ball is no better than yours.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by wideopenspaces View Post

            Curious why you won't answer what your actual tuition is.

            I'm with pp who questioned if this is a troll post or a journalist looking for a story. Especially since they repeatedly used the word attendant to describe their post residency position. If OP really is a med student, well, good luck. I hope you don't fail out with no way to repay all that unnecessary debt.
            My tuition will be roughly $60,000 this year. For further context, I am 22, going straight through school, and have no previous personal finance background. I respect the skepticism, but what difference does it make if I were trolling, a journalist, or a future med school student? PSLF has many nuances, misinformation, fearmongering, and risk. I would assume I am not the only person to have had this idea. I appreciate the guidance, honest opinion, and perspective many have provided. I am simply a person seeking help and further understanding on a topic most of you know better than me. I do not believe who I am or harmless use of word choice should discount my opportunity to become more informed on a complex topic.

            Thank you for all your contributions on the post! I have learned a lot and am continuing to learn more.

            If anyone has other advice or knowledge that has not been posted, post it. I believe I and many others would benefit from your perspectives on this topic and other topics about pursuing PSLF for a person just entering medical school right now.

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            • #36
              Pretty close to the top of the list. Any other options?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MTMT View Post

                I do not believe who I am or harmless use of word choice should discount my opportunity to become more informed on a complex topic.

                .
                You are getting called out on it because anyone with even a tiny amount of knowledge of medicine knows that an "attendant" is not the proper term for an attending physician. It matters because you just lost all credibility. I retract my statement about this not being a troll post.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bdubs View Post

                  You are getting called out on it because anyone with even a tiny amount of knowledge of medicine knows that an "attendant" is not the proper term for an attending physician. It matters because you just lost all credibility. I retract my statement about this not being a troll post.
                  Are you sure about that? I thought they were attendants and residings?

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                  • #39
                    way better off to go into a high paying specialty with a long training period, at least 6 years.

                    also what are you going to do with all the cash during med school? This is an investing forum after all.

                    is there a better arbitrage (max loan allowed minus actual costs) at a cheaper school?
                    my radiology group is hiring, pm if you can do msk and are interested

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                    • #40
                      “My tuition will be roughly $60,000 this year”
                      First, look up the total cost of attendance
                      Next, look up the residency requirements. You will have an income that barely covers living expenses.
                      Now this is the investment required to reach your first paycheck. How are you going to trim this and how are you going to pay for it?
                      Your tuition alone is high. You can shop better.
                      Get a better deal. Cut costs any way you can.
                      Third, assuming you want to invest in your career,
                      decide how you want to pay for it. Loans are the very last resort. Savings, scholarships, relatives earnings come first.
                      Focus on becoming a physician and choose a path and specialty. Then, figure out your loan strategy for residency. You can choose to accrue credit for loan forgiveness programs.
                      Finally, you finished and get a job. Plan your finances paying off your loans. You may choose to pay only a portion to the lender if PSLF is a potential. If after 10 years you get some forgiveness, great. If not, pay them off.
                      Understand the options, don’t try to game the system, It won’t really benefit you. Your investment in becoming a physician is the primary factor. There are many PCP programs besides PSLF. Focus on your education and pathway.
                      Career decisions based on PSLF are a mistake.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MTMT View Post


                        Could someone elaborate a little more on the questions I asked above? Again, I appreciate all the wise words!
                        Since I was one who first used the word 'troll", let me explain. It was not the attendant vs attending ( a mistake I could have made a couple of decades ago since the word attending is unique to USA and in other parts of the world the equivalent word is Consultant) but the tittle that said Maxing out PSLF.

                        Someone who is entering med schools and seeing the tuition costs and other costs will first think about how they can afford it and pay it off, and not how much more loans they can take. If you had read this forum or listened to the news you would have heard horror stories of people who missed payments, had payments not recorded properly, had been denied PSLF after making some payments etc. And the past and current POTUS want to eliminate or cap it severely. So one should try to take out only the appropriate loans at the lowest amounts and then decide at the right time if it is worth entering PSLF or better to pay it back and have the choice of what you want to specialize in and where you want to practice.
                        Last edited by Kamban; 02-14-2020, 10:19 AM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MTMT View Post
                          Hi I am an accepted class of 2024 medical school student who is evaluating ways to finance the med school process.

                          My question is: Could I take out maximum amount of eligible funds for cost of attendance (roughly 100K COA x 4 years of school = 400K) each year of school with the strategy of pursuing PSLF?

                          Here is further context as to my situation and current perspective:

                          1) My school offers federal unsubsidized and Grad plus loan which would make all my loans eligible for PSLF.
                          2) My understanding is if the MPN I sign when I borrow both of those loans has promises of eligibility of PSLF written in, then I would have a contract with the federal government for PSLF. Also, the two MPN contracts (1 for federal unsubsidized and 1 for Grad plus) I sign would be eligible for 10 years of loans and cover my 4 years of borrowing for school.
                          3) So, I would roughly take out 400K and with interest accruing would be close to 470K by the end of school. However, if I enrolled in an income-driven repayment plan (married filing separately and partner who is an accountant) such as PAYE, my qualified monthly payments over 10 years would be around 100K.
                          4) I will most likely pursue primary care. Currently, interested in family medicine and the possibility of a sports medicine fellowship.

                          How stupid would I be to actually pursue this gameplan? Are there holes in this gameplan that make it unachievable?

                          Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated and I apologize if this has been asked before!

                          Also, lay into me if I am wrong or being dumb. The more understanding the better.
                          So, the thing you need to be looking at is what you could expect to make as an attending primary care doc 7-8 years from now and use that expected salary to decide if taking out 400k of loans at this stage in your life is actually a smart idea...regardless of if there's PSLF in the future or not. IMO (and this is just speculative), primary care docs, especially family docs are likely to be making not much more than NPs/PAs make today. And it's often brutal work with high patient loads. Do you really want to start your career with a half million dollars of debt and only be making ~150k/yr? Have you ever calculated what your take home pay would be in that scenario and how much you'd be able to afford in terms of housing, cars, etc? Let me give you a hint...not much. Your minimum monthly student loan payments will probably be 5-6k/month. That only leaves you with probably 3k/month for EVERYTHING ELSE YOU NEED IN LIFE (housing, food, transportation, etc). You'd be pretty poor for quite some time actually. Yeah, you could do income based repayments and all, but then you're just kicking the can down the road and paying more in interest over time.

                          If you're set on going to a 60k/yr school (newer, private DO school I'm guessing?), then you should only borrow the minimum amount needed to pay for your tuition. Do not borrow money for living expenses. Get a job. Mooch off friends/family. Literally eat nothing but ramen and rice/beans. Go to the super markets that give out free samples and that will be your dinner. Do whatever you can to minimize how much you borrow. 240k loan burden after 4 years is MUCH more reasonable than 400k.

                          Forget PSLF. It's not going to be around in the near future IMO. Are you aware of the dismal 1% acceptance rate of PSLF applications? Does that make you feel okay about borrowing that much money?

                          So, in answer to your questions, I think planning to borrow 100k/year to go into primary care is not a wise financial decision. If you were gunning for Ortho or some other high paying specialty and you had the grades to prove you could do it, I'd say, sure borrow it if you want. With that being said, one of my best friends in med school did exactly as I suggested above (borrowed as little as possible, lived like a homeless person...had no heat in his apartment all winter long in the upper Midwest and used a free propane heater he found in the trash)...he ended up going into Ortho. He's making serious cash now and graduated with far less debt than I did (I went into hospital medicine). But, I still only graduated with about 200k (ballooned to 240k by time I started making payments). Even paying off that 240k was rough. I couldn't imagine having to pay a half million.

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                          • #43
                            Do not borrow because you plan on Ortho or a specific specialty.
                            Hightower gave you one anecdote. How about being dismissed starting year 5 of a 6 year ortho residency? How about the 2nd year being dismissed?
                            The path you start on is not necessarily where fate leads you.

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